Is there reference to this statement in any written form or was i just told this by mouth?

It depends on how closely you identify apostasy with blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, or denying the Holy Ghost. If you wanted, you could make a case that the consequences are worse than for murder. Denying the Holy Ghost is worse than denying Jesus, which is like shedding his blood, and his was the only truly innocent blood in history.

I don't believe in most of it, but I'm surprised they don't talk about it any more. It was one of their most effective tools for controlling the members, especially those naïve enough to think that the temple endowment is some sort of "sure witness" of the Holy Ghost. Joseph Fielding Smith and Mr. McConkie were really into that kind of doctrine. Even Mr. Kimball warned that the sin was more prevalent than most members thought.

Denying the Holy Ghost is considered a sin worse than murder, but normal apostasy (like what we've all done) isn't as far as I know. Maybe in Brigham Young's day it was, but today it's not.

Just what does it mean to deny the holy ghots, exaclty?

Why it means whatever the people who want to control someone says it means, of course...

Nope. I'm not taking on any more of the Church's guilt-trips. Not one bit.

No, no, no. It is adultery (and by default any other sexual sin like masterbation) that is "the sin next to murder".

So all you masterbaters out there....you're going to be de-nutted and spend eternity pineing away for something, but you can't put your finger on it!

FYI.

Remember, back in the day, the Lord had a secret hit squad whose job it was to eliminate the apostates from our midst. They just needed to be provided the name and by golly that person disappeared and there was no more discord. Blood shed and they were forgiven; both the sinner and the slayer because one shed his blood upon the ground and the other was doing God's sacred work.

This is the secret and murderous rhetoric that Brigham made up, taught over the pulpit and sent to the masses as doctrine in the form of the JOD. Save the sinner that sinned against Brigham by killing them and justify the murderer that fulfilled Gods laws so that the believers think that God is OK with murder when necessary to serve or protect Brigham’s fiefdom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 12:28PM by AmIDarkNow?.

When I was TBM, I was taught that denying a "sure" testimony from the Holy Ghost was unforgivable and would land you in Outer Darkness as a Son of Perdition.

A "sure" testimony was defined to me as seeing an angel or diety, or a similar "undeniable" experience. Just feeling warm fuzzies would not qualify as a "sure" testimony, so apostasy would not fall into this category.

The only other unforgivable sin was the shedding of innocent blood ("murder"). Sexual sin comes in at #3 ("next to murder"), so apostasy can't be any higher than #4.

By the way, I was also told that the number of Sons of Perdition "could be counted on one hand", with Cain and Judas the only examples cited. So it's apparently pretty hard to commit the unforgivable sin. Also, realizing that more than 5 people have been murdered in this world, I was told that "shedding of innocent blood" refers only to a subset of murders, such as Jesus Christ or an under-8 child. So a "regular" murder isn't as big a deal. That explanation doesn't hold up though, because I'm pretty sure the number of infanticides in the history of the world is rather higher than 5.

Of course, so much of Church doctrine is made up on the spot and what is taught from the pulpit is changed every few decades anyway, so who knows what the "real" (ha, ha, ha!) doctrine is supposed to be.

I admit that I felt the holy ghost as clear as day, like the sun on my face, on many occasions, and I openly deny that the holy ghost exists. As it turns out, it was all in my head. I am the very definition of a son of perdition.

Not giving them your money and all your free time is the sin next to murder.

Ask anyone who calls to come in for tithing settlement or needs more people to clean toilets.

Is is NOT a sin next to murder but a sin worthy of being murdered. That is how Mormonism goes. Sex is the sin next to murder because it is God-regulated and only prophet sanction gets you sinless adultery.

That would mean that everyone who joins the Mormon church has left another church AKA apostasy to do so ALL are guilty of the unpardonable sin. Think about it.

I never heard that. I only heard (over and over) that masturbation was next to murder. And fornication, too. And adultery. But especially masturbation.

Oh, well then. I have it covered. I've denied the HG, apostatized and stated that I think Christ is a myth. That ought to get me a nice spot among the coals.

I'd hate to think that you masturbated.

Spanking monkeys is the sin next to Darwinism.

It was revealed to me just now that masturbation is the sin next to involuntary manslaughter. Thank god for revelation.

with bills and food that misusing the Lord's money was next to murder. So--there is a hell of a long list.

I wonder how the Lord feels about using his money to build a mall.

For murder you get imprisoned.
For apostasy you get orphaned.

I'm not entirely sure of whether the two are viewed the same way from an LDS perspective. I can tell you this.....that in the 84th section of the Doctrin and Covenants starting in verse 41, it states that those who receive the priesthood and abandon it in any form will not have forgivenss of their sins in this life or in the life to come.

So having been a former bishop and high priest in the lds church, i guess i can look forward to being cast off as a son of perdition. Too bad I only had one wife, I could have had so much more fun to make the hellish future worth it.

Look.....everything in the lds doctrine hinges on the veracity of whether JS is a true prophet. The evidence for him as such is non exisitant. Outside of the "feelings" that so many have, nothing is based on actual evidence. It is a lie of global proportions, it has no bases in fact and continues to reel in sucker after sucker who profess to "know". They know nothing since there is NO evidence. They "believe".....yes.....but they "KNOW" nothing. If i say I believe I can cure cancer drinking a cup of olive oil every day......it doesn't matter how often I say it or believe it......the evidence isn't there to support it. A feeling does not constitute.....I know. Wake up Sheeple!!!

Mormonism murders your soul. That, brothers and sisters, is a sin! "Apostasy" is not the same as gravitation toward the truth.

You go to Mormonism (or are unfortunate to be born to it) because it is said to have the truth, and then go back to where you came... and/ or move forward. That is not called apostasy. That is called leaving the Mormon church behind - you can't take it with you.

Some goofball made up all these - this activity, thought or deed is next to that crime or punishment garbage.

How can you listen to something or someone that went against you natural instinct (Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, "Still Small Voice") or that uses fear or punishment or dangling carrots to get you to do something it wants and attempts to put and keep you in darkness?

Why would you pay attention to something that doesn't honor you, recognize you, support you, appreciate you, sustain you, fulfill you, or at the very least, tolerate you or appreciate your wisdom, kindness or generosity; to something that whittles you down, bores you and has nothing to teach you; to a sack of lyin' s_it?

And like as somebody else has previously mentioned, every Mormon is an apostate anyway because they have to give up something to get to the Mormon church, usually way too much.

M@t

> moremany Wrote:

You make a good point. Really, we haven't apostatized from the Church -- we haven't fallen away from the truth. The truth was simply nowhere to be found in the Church. The Church unilaterally reneged on it's social contract.

I thought it was sexual sin that was next to murder.

Next thing you know, it's going to be thinking that is the sin next to murder.

They might as well add anything else to the list that they want people to be afraid to do.

Sexual sin is "next to murder", in the sense that it's the sin considered closest to murder by mormons in its severity. In mormonism, the three biggest sins are, in order:

1. Denying the Holy Ghost
2. Pre-medidated murder of an innocent victim (an accidental killing or fighting in a war wouldn't come under this)
3. Serious sexual sin (this refers to things like adultery and rape, not smaller sins like masturbation)

These three sins are difficult to repent of, and require a special repentance process I believe (I can't remember all the details anymore).

So then, I guess, can you deny the Holy Ghost and not apostate or vice versa?

daughter of perdition and all.

I remembered a quote from JS that said to deny the Holy Ghost would be like looking at the sun directly and saying it wasn't there. Here's a link to it.
http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book%20_of_Mormon/04_jacob/jacob04/jacob04_02sinagainsthg_js.htm

Growing up in the church, I got the impression anyone who has EVER had a testimony and then leaves the church is going against the Holy Ghost, and would be like a son of perdition. You hear that echoed in the testimonies of people who say they "can't ever deny" the things they have felt, as if they have a responsibility to never re-evaluate their feelings in light of new information, or that their feelings can't ever change. Instead, they must protect the conclusions they made early in life, and repeat "I know the church is true" like a protective mantra, or risk going to outer darkness. Many people are afraid of outer darkness when they leave the church.

In thinking about this whole issue, I realized that I couldn't become a 'daughter' of perdition, even if I tried. I had never felt like I had a testimony in the first place, and certainly not any kind of sure witness or manifestation. Very few people, according to Mormonism's own beliefs would be eligible.
In fact, it doesn't even mention women. Maybe it IS just SONS of perdition.

So I'm not a daughter of perdition. But I'd proudly wear the 'apostate' label. I think it's funny. It's like calling someone a 'rebel' for wanting to live a normal life, free of magical thinking.

One more thing. This quote is clearly made to threaten and malign people who leave the church. It's ugly, and it shows part of JS's character. Ultimately, it has shaped the character of the LDS church and the 'us vs. them' and the fear-based 'don't-ever-question-or you'll-lose-the-Holy-Ghost' culture it exhibits.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2014 11:38AM by imaworkinonit.

How about mutual masturbation with an apostate?

Sure, why not!

Ron Burr

I have absolutely no knowledge of the Holy fucking Ghost....so how could I deny it/him/her. I've never had one spiritual religious experience in my life. No testimony, no reading the scriptures...EVER...always thought it was a waste of time.

Ron Burr