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Posted by: Duder ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:09PM

I commonly hear folks claim that Mormons are creationists. I used to argue vehemently that all of my mo professors happily taught evolution. A family member in good standing who worked in the biology department at BYU constantly taught that the theory of evolution was valid and necessary.

So, does/did the church make some definitive pronouncement? At this point, what percentage of the membership of the church do you think are strict creationists?

I just bet this will be a Skousen or McKonkie (sp?) thing.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:15PM


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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:15PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 12:15PM by Dave the Atheist.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:20PM

A lot of TBMs staunchly defend evolution still.

I think the general move to the right of the church over the last 20-30 years has just put them more in line with creationists in general. It's more of a cultural thing.

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Posted by: brett ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:27PM

The official statement of the Mormon church on the origin of the earth and life is in Moses chapter 2 and Abraham chapter 4 in the Pearl of Great Price.

According to official Mormon doctrine, god created grass, herb yielding seeds, and fruit trees on day three (see verses 11-13). Then he created the sun on the fourth day (see verses 14-19). [Have Mormons ever wondered how these plants survived without the sun?].

He then went on to create adam, eve, etc etc.

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Posted by: onlyme ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 12:42PM

We had a discussion on creationism/evolution in EQ probably a year ago. It was basically everybody else in the room against me, I was the only one standing up for evolution. What I said was that the ideas of creationism and evolution can co-exist, that no where in the scriptures does it say how God created things, just that he did. maybe evolution was the method he chose? I don't remember the details of the responses but they were basically saying the scriptures say A, B, C and the church leaders have said, X,Y, Z on the subject, therefor evolution is wrong. Of course they also talked about how life began, which is NOT evolution.

After church I went home and did some looking, thinking maybe I had missed something along the way. I found a few statements from church leaders back in the early 1900's that were conflicting and a statement from Pres Hinckley (I think) that basically said that it's not essential to our salvation so we should leave questions of science to the scientists.

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Posted by: EssexExMo ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 01:18PM

I always found the membership to be creationist.... but it wouldnt be the first time where mass of 'chapel mormons' went against the 'edumacated mormons':
http://www.mormoninformation.com/imvscm.htm

I was once talking to a friend in the chapel car park... One of the Bishopric came over and asked what we were talking about (this was a common method that he used to inveigle himself into a conversation)
I answered, saying that we were talking about 'Lucy', the early Hominid fossil found in Kenya
He said "Ah, I'm not sure if we believe in that" and turned around and walked away.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 01:23PM

The scriptures point to one thing, and the "official positions" of earlier church leaders point to the same thing.

Many of the members take that side too.

But the current leaders just shrug the issue off. It's another one of those things where the leadership can take whatever position it needs to and wants at the time.

Maybe those early leaders were speaking as prophets, or maybe they were speaking as men. Depends on which side you need to take.

But, if you were to poll the actual members, my guess would be that the majority would be creationists.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 02:14PM

Back when their views on the subject really mattered to me--really the only aspect that generally concerns me now is how much fun I can poke at their nonsense--which was when I was a high schooler, Joseph Fielding Smith had just succeeded David O. McKay as LDS president.

McKay probably believed in evolution of sorts; Fielding Smith obviously didn't. His book, "Man, His Origin and Destiny" was in the high school library, and I managed to get through it (better than I did with the Book of Mormon, which I still regard as horribly written). The claim was made that without Adam's fall, which evolution precluded, Christ's atonement was meaningless, as was the LDS plan of salvation.

Smith's tenure as LDS supreme leader was short, and his pronouncements on the subject were never "canonized as scripture." This despite what a very-TBM friend said to me, "When he speaks, it is with the voice of God" or something to that effect...

I'm sure those who've exited the church more recently can offer some reports on the subject of Darwin evolution as expressed in various EQ's and such... I would suspect some roundly dismiss the notion, and others hold to some sort of "guided evolution" (probably what McKay believed). I'm also sure some just keep their mouths shut and go with prevailing winds.

Here's a link to a history of BYU's "Evolution Controversy" that involved the firing of three professors around 1911, which arose out of a conflict with the superintendent of LDS education, Horace Hall Cummings...

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/harmony/chapter3.htm

Bear in mind at this time that Fielding Smith's father, Joseph F. Smith, was LDS President, and the younger Smith was already working in the church history department and was called as an apostle in 1910. He became church historian in 1921. So even though two generations had passed, events in the 1960's still had strong connections to this era...

Some noteworthy extractions from the Signature history...

>Four years after assuming the presidency of Brigham Young University in 1903, George H. Brimhall embarked on an ambitious plan "to include in [his] faculty … the best scholars of the church." LDS leaders had only recently upgraded their Provo, Utah, academy to university status, and the fifty-five-year-old Utah Valley educator was anxious to improve his school's largely home-spun faculty. Brimhall's initial coup was hiring in 1907 BYU's first Ph.D., Joseph Peterson, to oversee the psychology department. Brimhall also succeeded that year in recruiting Peterson's younger brother, Henry, who held a master's degree from Harvard, to supervise the school's College of Education.

>The following year, Brimhall convinced twenty-eight-year-old Ralph V. Chamberlin, chair of the University of Utah's biology department and dean of its medical school, to join the growing faculty. Upon his arrival Chamberlin was made head of the biology department, and in 1909 his brother, William Henry, was also hired. Trained in modern and ancient languages and theology, William taught classes in psychology, philosophy, and languages. In addition to their regular assignments, the Petersons and William Chamberlin, three of the most highly credentialed Utah academics of their day, were appointed to the part-time theology faculty.

The superintendant of church schools, Horace Hall Cummings, was a largely self-educated sort, who "had concluded from his own unsuccessful attempt to study in the east during the 1880s with church support that 'previous faithfulness and good character [are] no assurance against' the loss of one's faith. Cummings's career in church education had been foretold by the widow of a church apostle who had blessed him in tongues that he 'should visit the stakes of Zion, establishing and setting in order educational institutions in them.' Like his mentor and career church educator, Karl G. Maeser, Cummings had remained within the ranks of the church school system, convinced that its value lay in spiritual and moral rather than intellectual development."

Enter dat debul Darwin...

>Reportedly responding to complaints from as far away as Mexico, Cummings visited BYU in late November 1910 to evaluate the situation. He subsequently reported to the LDS board of education that a number of teachers were "applying the evolutionary theory and other philosophical hypotheses to principles of the gospel and to the teachings of the church in such a way as to disturb, if not destroy, the faith of the pupils." The board, allegedly "thunderstruck" at the report, instructed Cummings to "make a thorough investigation of conditions.

I'll leave the rest to readers to delve into the particulars, although here's a bit of a spoiler...

>One week later to the day the three professors were summoned to Salt Lake City. "We suddenly were brought out into a room," wrote Chamberlin, "with six of the top dignitaries of the [p.29] church there to try us. We were, as they say, flabbergasted." Chamberlin was charged with "teaching evolution," which he did not deny. The three men asked for a copy of the charges against them but were refused. They were, however, aware of the substance of Cummings's report and the broad issues under discussion. All "frankly acknowledged" belief in biblical criticism and "absolute certainty as to the truth of evolution."

While I was revisiting the Signature site to retrieve this story (I should probably write something up for Eric to archive), I ran across some modern attempts by "LDS Scholars" to reconcile church teachings and evolution. Here's one...

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excerpt-evolution-and-mormonism/

Note that Jeffery's treatise makes no mention of the BYU events described, and on that one I suggest he should be convicted of conduct unbecoming of a scholar and flogged accordingly.

And incredibly, he sings the praises of two contemporary LDS academics...

>Trent Stephens and Jeff Meldrum are both established research scientists. Their undergraduate careers at Brigham Young University exposed them early to the details of Mormonism’s history with science and religion.

RFM readers who've been here for any length of time will recognize that Jeffery Meldrum has indeed gained a great deal of stature and notoriety as a scholar...

He is widely regarded as the world's leading authority on Bigfoot...

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Posted by: Duder ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 05:50PM

Well, we know SWK had a testimony of BF.

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Posted by: Don Bagley ( )
Date: March 10, 2011 06:09PM

I never met a Mormon who had any respect for Charles Darwin's work.

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