I am 5th generation Mormon on BOTH sides of my family. I am currently the only ex-Mormon among my siblings, cousins, aunts/uncles. Pioneer Day is HUGE for my family.

Some of you will feel the same as I do, some won't really care, and some of you will not like this rant. I just need to feel like I'm not alone. I'm not doing well today. Thanks, in advance, for those of you 'listening' and understanding this rant.

I hate my Mormon heritage now! I loathe this fraud of a so-called religion! I cannot stand July 24th. I am not proud of my ancestors. I feel sorry for every one of them because they sacrificed so much for a con-made hoax. I do not like being from Utah and wish my family history led to ANY other state in America. The 'Days of 47' Parade makes my blood boil. Celebrating today is like commemorating the day the Davidian Group moved to a hilltop in Waco, Texas. Very different 'cult causes', but, the same principle; a group of devout people, sacrificing everything for a fraud. I really hate this day in history. I hate it so much!

Ok, rant over. Sorry if I offended anyone. But, I am NOT proud to be a descendant of Utah Mormon Pioneers...

You can take heart in the fact that in 49 other states and the rest of the world, no one knows the fist thing about Pioneer Day.

I used to be proud of my pioneer heritage.

Then I left the church and I was slightly disappointed, but mostly indifferent.

Then I found out that my ancestors were directly involved in the MMM, and now I am absolutely disgusted. Multiple wives, kidnappings, murder. Yeah, my ancestors weren't just innocent bystanders hoodwinked. They were in on it.

I get your rant. In fact, I posted a similar rant about a week ago. I've had a week to think about it and I'm not as miffed with the ancestors as I was. Some of my ancestors were converted in England and TSCC was a way for them to immigrate at a time when things were not too rosie for them in their homeland.

The other thing that I realized is that the stories about sacrifice, while true, are played up by TSCC to bind us to TSCC. If you read about pioneers who were not Mormon, you'll find that their lives were also difficult. Settling the West wasn't easy for anyone.

Our ancestors were duped by a religious con man, but others in their day were duped by other kinds of con men.

I watched a few minutes of the parade this morning and had to turn it off before I lost my breakfast. Like you, I wish I didn't live in Utah and could just ignore the whole day.

Hopefully by next year there will be fellow apostates at your family barbecue.

Hey- I'm a non- Mormon living in Utah. I hate pioneer day. All this fake pageantry for a bullshit artists "vision". I can't imagine knowing the truth while my family still laps it all up. Hang in there.

I guess you can keep hating Mormonism, which completely OK.
But if you separate the cult religion from your ancestry, here's some good part of it worth celebrating
- They were faithful and hardworking
- Founded a new state ( made good use of this land), even helping start Vegas!
- I'm sure they genuinely loved their children and progenitors and cared for them to set up a brighter future

I know. I know. The stench of Mormonism overcomes the real heroes on this day of remembrance - your beloved ancestors.
Yes, they were royally screwed and manipulated by the conmen. But let's at least give them credit and honor for trying to do what they thought was right.

> But if you separate the cult religion from your
> ancestry, here's some good part of it worth
> celebrating
> - They were faithful and hardworking
> - Founded a new state ( made good use of this
> land), even helping start Vegas!
> - I'm sure they genuinely loved their children and
> progenitors and cared for them to set up a
> brighter future

They were faithful to an obvious fraud.
"Hardworking" is not a good thing. Laziness is a virtue that leads to innovation.
They founded a mediocre state without which the country would be better off.
They loved their children so much, they gave them to their leaders to be raped.

Fuck the pioneers.

"They were faithful to an obvious fraud."
Is it really that obvious? That's the hardest part of trying to convince a cult member that it is obviously a cult.

""Hardworking" is not a good thing. Laziness is a virtue that leads to innovation."
- Don't know how to counter-argue that Hardworking is NOT better than laziness. ????

They founded a mediocre state without which the country would be better off.
- mediocre compared to what? Is this piece of land better off a desert? It's created SOME jobs, homes and livelihood. Can't discredit that.

They loved their children so much, they gave them to their leaders to be raped.
- You think any good parent would knowingly do that? They were fooled, nothing less. Just like you, me and thousands of others who slaved away as members in our times.

Did they write in their journals that they were happy to sign away their awful kids to these predators? Sure, there may be a few evil ones, but mostly, they were just trying to take care of their daughters with the belief of eternal blessings.

But it's OK that you rant. Rant away if it helps you.

I'm an exmormon, hate the church, but love the people.

mostcorrectedbook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They were faithful to an obvious fraud."
> Is it really that obvious? That's the hardest part
> of trying to convince a cult member that it is
> obviously a cult.
>
> ""Hardworking" is not a good thing. Laziness is a
> virtue that leads to innovation."
> - Don't know how to counter-argue that Hardworking
> is NOT better than laziness. ????
>
> They founded a mediocre state without which the
> country would be better off.
> - mediocre compared to what? Is this piece of land
> better off a desert? It's created SOME jobs, homes
> and livelihood. Can't discredit that.
>
> They loved their children so much, they gave them
> to their leaders to be raped.
> - You think any good parent would knowingly do
> that? They were fooled, nothing less. Just like
> you, me and thousands of others who slaved away as
> members in our times.
>
> Did they write in their journals that they were
> happy to sign away their awful kids to these
> predators? Sure, there may be a few evil ones, but
> mostly, they were just trying to take care of
> their daughters with the belief of eternal
> blessings.
>
> But it's OK that you rant. Rant away if it helps
> you.
>
> I'm an exmormon, hate the church, but love the
> people.


Okay, I'll be nicer. Perhaps it wasn't such an obvious fraud back then. Still, people all the way up to the FP saw through it and called JS on it. Abusing habeus corpus to avoid trials, profiting from shady business deals, etc... surely these were hints that JS wasn't God's representative, but a simple con man.

Laziness is the key to innovation. Don't work hard. Work smart, and enjoy life. Life without leisure is meaningless.

As for the jobs/homes/livelihoods... those could have been created elsewhere with less effort. Nothing special about Utah.

The pioneers would have done better for themselves and their descendants if they hadn't been deceived by a conman, then followed a despot into Mexico. Maybe the 24th should be "Sympathy for the Pioneers Day."

As for giving their young teenage daughters to their leaders to be raped... how brainwashed do you have to be to consent to an old man "marrying" your 14 year old daughter? At some point, early Mormon pioneers lost their connection to reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2014 06:41PM by ⅽupcakelicker.

I wrote this comment on an earlier thread in response to people trashing their ancestors who joined the early church:


They [ancestors]... were uneducated, and unsophisticated, which made them prime targets for unscrupulous conmen. They were also generally impoverished, often destitute, and desperate. They didn't have much of a future in their home countries, and they knew it. No doubt you're convinced that you wouldn't have been duped had you been in their disadvantaged position, but you can't possibly KNOW what you would have done given their limited information.

It’s very easy to sit at a keyboard and use the Internet to dump on people who lived 160 years ago because they weren't as enlightened as people today. They didn't have our resources. Go ahead and trash the ones who knowingly sold the snake oil, but it's unfair to pin the blame on those who were simply trying to better their own lives.


Adding for this thread:

For example, one of my Utah gg-gf's was a coal miner in Wales, with all the comforts of that lifestyle you'd expect. Starvation wages, nonexistent hygiene, infant mortality through the roof. He joined the church in 1861 and immigrated in 1872. He ended up as a small farmer in Greenville (Beaver Co). This may not seem like much to people in 2014 with air conditioning and iPads, but it sure beat the f*** out of being a Welsh coal miner. Hindsight is 20/20, folks.

And one final point. Few posters on this board believe in a pre-(mortal) existence any more, so consider this. Everything in the past had to come together exactly as it did in order for you to be here complaining about it. If our ancestors had not joined the church and gone to Utah, I, and most of you, would *not even exist.* So give them credit for something, instead of just carping about how awful you have it.

Carping is not allowed on a recovery board. 10-4
Will the test about who I must give credit for something be multiple choice or T/F?
Missed the primer on how you know people would not exist if their ancestors had not been Utah pioneers. Raised Mormon but no Utah pioneer ancestors in the fam tree so now you have me wondering if I really exist.

I've read a lot of my ancestors personal accounts and all of them seemed to live pretty grim lives in the old countries.

Along comes a charlatan with a crazy story about some gold plates, but it is based in the USA which you've vaguely heard about it.

They offer you at least some assistance in going to the promised land. It's gotta be better than what you are doing now right?

You've got 24 hours to make up your mind before the next boat takes off. You tell your sister, I'll go if you go. You both pledge to leave and take a chance.

After lots of effort, you get to Utah. It's pretty awful and the men are all pervs, but it's much better than you were facing back home. At least these pervs leave you alone once they've found a new "sister' to lust over.

You just want to survive and provide food and love to your children who survive. Since you never have idle hands, you really have no time to think about what has happened to you and no way to change it anyway.

I'm a never Mo who's lived in Utah for a number of years. I've always found Pioneer Days to be a fraudulent joke. My family were all pioneers (Colorado) but not Mormon, and I'm a direct descendent of a few famous people (General Davidson in the Rev. War, for example), but we never bragged about it to anyone, yet alone made ourselves to be superior like the Mormons do. It's totally arrogant and dishonest - full of lies about how great these people were, when in actuality, they were either con men or duped.

I'm glad I'm back in Colorado so I don't have to notice what day it is. Just more arrogant Moron BS.

At least you are out (so it is just another day for you) - the rest are still partying at the glass. [I edit simply to fix a small spell-check error. Instead of "partying", (though that may work too), it should read pawing at the glass]

A little P-day humor/ remembrance (sharing).

Once, in Provo, on Pioneer Day, my friends and I were waiting for a spot on the street way before the parade- about 1 AM- staking out a spot. A work truck went by (I had once worked for the company) and I pointed it out out to my friends. The passenger in the truck saw us pointing and flipped us off. My buddys and I jumped in the car and we raced after them. They made a few turns (parade route, main streets, State St., slow going). As we got beside them our driver lit a bottle rocket and let it go. The passenger's window was still down (oops) and it went right into the cab of the truck and landed on the dashboard. The driver hit the brakes and stopped in the middle of the road and I looked back just in time to see the cab of the truck light up as it exploded. I hope they had their hands on their ears. Poor guys.

I don't even remember if we stayed around for the parade.

M@t



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2014 09:48PM by moremany.

My ancestors were in the Willey Handcart Company, but they stayed at winter quarters instead of following idiots. Because they survived that era of stupidity, I exist.
Bottom line is you can't hate your ancestors, because without them (and TSCC) you wouldn't exist.
Nada, zippo, nothing. Take one person out of your ancestry and you are not only history, but would never have existed.

Please take the time to read my OP before posting in condescending ways, reminiscent of Mormon leaders.

1). I never said I hate my ancestors
2). I never trashed or thrashed my ancestors
3). My issue is TSCC not my ancestors
4). It is very Mormon of you to try and guilt me in to thinking I owe my ancestors anything
5). You make the assumption that because we exist, we have an obligation to be appreciative of our ancestors. Sorry, but, that is a flawed assumption. I owe them nothing.
6). As I stated in my OP, I came to a RECOVERY board to rant, not to be lectured.
7). I hate Pioneer Day even more now that I read your posts, as Exmos, that still feel that you need to defend this crap.

Thank you! I am alone, drowning in a sea of TBM nightmares. Today was terrible for me and your empathy made me smile! I never asked for this heritage and I refuse to be a victim to it. But, on a day like this, it's nice to be in good company with you, as I continue to recover from this terrible cult! Again, thank you! I'm glad you are out there.

Doubtless I'm numbered among the "condescending" ones. A point-by-point rebuttal would be tiresome and counterproductive. But I will issue one clarification.

I'm in total agreement with you regarding Pioneer Day. I'm absolutely not defending it. PD is a ridiculous idea. The church in its self-aggrandizement inflates the pioneers' importance far out of proportion, as it does everything else about itself and its history.

In addition, it seeks to portray the Utah pioneers as being motivated by faith, spirit and the desire to build up Zion, in contrast to all other western settlers who were just in it for the economics. This, of course, is complete bulls***. The pioneers were not the spiritual giants the church wants everyone to believe, and probably most were in fact seeking a more prosperous life. So yeah, the church is lying about that also.

I'm not in or from Utah, and so I'm not surrounded and pummeled by PD as you are. It isn't forced down my throat every year. But I well understand the culture – hell, I even participated in a PD parade way back when I was 5 or 6 – so I have a good understanding of what it's like. I'm not unsympathetic to your predicament, really. PD is a stupid, pathetic excuse for a celebration. You're right about PD, you're fully justified in hating it, and if I were in Utah, I'd hate it too.

Book of Mordor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doubtless I'm numbered among the "condescending"
> ones. A point-by-point rebuttal would be tiresome
> and counterproductive. But I will issue one
> clarification.
>
> I'm in total agreement with you regarding Pioneer
> Day. I'm absolutely not defending it. PD is a
> ridiculous idea. The church in its
> self-aggrandizement inflates the pioneers'
> importance far out of proportion, as it does
> everything else about itself and its history.
>
> In addition, it seeks to portray the Utah pioneers
> as being motivated by faith, spirit and the desire
> to build up Zion, in contrast to all other western
> settlers who were just in it for the economics.
> This, of course, is complete bulls***. The
> pioneers were not the spiritual giants the church
> wants everyone to believe, and probably most were
> in fact seeking a more prosperous life. So yeah,
> the church is lying about that also.
>
> I'm not in or from Utah, and so I'm not surrounded
> and pummeled by PD as you are. It isn't forced
> down my throat every year. But I well understand
> the culture – hell, I even participated in a PD
> parade way back when I was 5 or 6 – so I have a
> good understanding of what it's like. I'm not
> unsympathetic to your predicament, really. PD is a
> stupid, pathetic excuse for a celebration. You're
> right about PD, you're fully justified in hating
> it, and if I were in Utah, I'd hate it too.

Thank you! This was a great post for me. No worries, to you or any others on here. I'm just angry, tired, annoyed, and smothered by TBMs. I'm just in a bad mood today and totally realize I'm being too sensitive. It's all on me, really and I apologize for being stupid about all of it. I'm just mad. Anyways, you nailed it here, so thanks again.

Good on Bishop Mordor for calling you to repentance. RFM exists so gods-in-embryo/arrogant aspholes in actuality get to pound the podium and be right. Screw you bro if you thought this was a place to talk about the frustrations you can not talk about with TBM family and if you thought your words would not be twisted by a psuedo Bishop stroking his superiority boner.

I'm with you. I'm from Mormon "royalty" (ha ha, such an oxymoron) and hate the smug self-righteousness of my extended family. I hate Pioneer Day too.

What I hate about Pioneer days isn't so much the pioneers themselves. Many of them had gruesome lives in their old countries and even if they were deluded, at least had the guts to follow their misguided dreams when so many others stayed put and stayed stuck.

However, I do hate the attitudes of their descendants. A lot of people had pioneer ancestors, folks - get over yourselves already. The Mormon pioneers didn't do anything special - thousands of others did the same thing in Oregon, California, Washington, Montana ... Settled the land, laid a foundation for the freedoms and blessings we have today, stole the country from those it belonged to through genocide and arrogance. But Mormons gush about how d@mn GRATEFUL they are to those early pioneers, not realizing that their pioneer ancestors enslaved them into the soul-crushing cult they belong to today. Sins of the fathers visited unto the generations that follow. Pioneer ancestors don't make you special Mormons, so quit acting like they do. One of these days they will chance the name from Days of 47 to something more accurate like "Self-Congratulatory Days of Parading Around Celebrating My Amazingness." Simply because they descended from someone who did what practically everyone else did who settled the west. Good luck with that.

Well, Pioneer Days or "Pie and Beer Days" has made the New York Times. LOL

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/us/pioneer-day-of-mormons-retooled-for-saloon.html?_r=0