Yes, we can answer that question using a respected Pew foundation survey.


http://religions.pewforum.org/


From that web page click on "Comparisons"

From that page we will look at two things:

Social & Political Views -> Views about Homosexuality
and
Beliefs and Practices -> Importance of Religion in one's life

The groups that have the highest percentage of anti gay members:

Evangelical Churches
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses
Muslims
Historically black churches.

Then when we look at Importance of religion in one's life, it is the EXACT SAME LIST.

The highest level of anti-gay beliefs is with the most devout religious people. It really is only in the group of devout religious people that we find that the majority of that group is anti-gay.

I think it safe to say that if it were not for the devoutly religious people in the USA, gays would already have full equal rights.

And this is after decades of work to change views in the USA.

And for those that can't get shades of gray, saying stuff like "majority" or "large portion" is NOT making a statement about the whole. But we can clearly see where the largest portion of homophobia in the USA comes from.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 07:41PM by MJ.

Oh here we go. The so called enlightened and tolerant spewing generalizations against groups of people saying it's all their fault. Dude. You are as bad as some of the people you point your finger at.

Two wrongs don't make a right. You forgot to mention the Catholic church why you were at it. Where are you going with this? What is your solution? Throwing Christians into re-education camps?

It is documented evidence that is making the statement and has nothing to do with "The so called enlightened and tolerant spewing generalizations" With that statement you are only shooting the MESSENGER. But then again that is about all you can do because I am using EVIDENCE to back up MY observations.

Get it? I am not making a claim, I am POINTING OUT WHAT THE NUMBERS SHOW.

But you just go for the ad hominem. Figures.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 07:50PM by MJ.

I'm a statistician. It's all about the sampling of the data. Anyone can put some statistics together and say it's evidence. So the Christians in the USA are the Nazi menace now from my read of your posts.

So what are you going to do about it? What's your solution to this problem you keep bringing up constantly in here? I hate to say it but you are starting to sound like a bit of a nazi yourself. You realize those are huge groups of diverse people and not all of them hate gays and they have the same rights to free speech and religious assembly you do.

You have yet to actually address the DATA. Hard for me to imagine that a statistician would not just ADDRESS THE DATA and would resort to vague claims about application of data, INNUENDO and ad hominems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 08:07PM by MJ.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/03/whats-connection-between-religion-and.html

The biggest factor that accounts for homophobia? RELIGION.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 08:10PM by MJ.

Thank you MJ, I found your info most interesting. It confirms some long held suspicions I've had on a relationship between religiosity and homophobia.

On a somewhat related note another study examines the correlation between income equality and the amount of prayer engaged in:

"I found that those countries that had higher infant mortality, homicide rates and levels of corruption, had lower life expectancy, had more AIDS and more abortion all tended to have a population that turned to prayer more often. The other interesting finding is that all these factors also went hand in hand with higher income inequality. In other words, income inequality acts like a kind of barometer of societal health."
(This would suggest that prayer lacks efficacy for the very things people pray for.)

And
". . . religious people are less likely to support social welfare. Since state welfare spending is the most important leveller of incomes, this helps explain why more religious countries have more inequality. And remember those studies by Aaron Kay I described earlier? Well, he’s also shown that faith in God and faith in the government are in balance. The more you erode people’s confidence in the government, the stronger their religious beliefs become. What may well happen is a kind of vicious circle, in which religious countries cut back on welfare spending, which leads to higher inequality and so even more religion."

http://newhumanist.org.uk/2220/who-needs-god

This has potentially massive implications for American society where income inequality is steadily increasing.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42400.pdf

Sure you can mess up the collection of data in a billion different ways but once it is compiled, data does not lie. In the Pew surveys the questions were simple, and the data provided good answers. I would also say that the data from the surveys matches observed behavior.

As far as pulling the free speech card, MJ is not suggesting that they are not able to speak their mind, MJ is pointing out what they say when they speak.

We have and will continue to win by winning the battle for ideas. The reason why we are winning the war of ideas is because we use reliable, verifiable information.

The person that is loosing is the person that has resorted accusing others of being a Nazi.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 12:38AM by MJ.

It's not a "who"; it's a "what".

The Old Testament, which clearly forbids homosexuality.
The New Testament, which clearly forbids homosexuality.
The Qu'ran, which clearly forbids homosexuality.

As long as there are "people of the book", there will be people who disapprove of homosexuality.

God, for instance.

For someone who supposedly disapproves of homosexuals, He sure makes a lot of them.

Can we hear some positive information on the acceptance of homosexuality in our culture? I'm quite certain that in my 40+ years on this earth that things have vastly improved. My niece recently brought her girlfriend home to meet my extended family and no one even batted an eyelash..and that includes my parents that are almost 80 and old school Catholic. Mom and I shared a laugh because my brother(niece's dad) thinks that my parents are too old to "get" it. Mom and Dad get it and they are happy as long as my niece is happy.

for the last 30 years, I am still a second class citizen. Actually, it has been all my life, I just didn't realize it. It is possible that I may remain a second class citizen the rest of my life.

Please do not ask me to accept "Improvement" while I am still discriminated against. Please do not ask me to accept "improvement" while I still do not have full rights.

And please do not ask me to accept "improvement" while religious leaders around the country are still getting cheered for preaching "death to gays".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 12:30AM by MJ.

MJ everyone is a second class citizen. The establishment treats us all like crap. Unless you are a banker who can buy off politicians you are a second class citizen and you are owned.

Rubicon thinks his being treated poorly is as bad as being discriminated against. Boo, Hoo.

Maybe Rubicon is getting treated badly because he does such nasty assed shit as accusing people that are repeating factual data of being nazis, thus bringing the shit down upon himself.

And when was the last time religious leaders campaigned to take rights away from YOU. Rubicon?

Oh, and I am still waiting for you to actually address the DATA presented instead of just attacking me personally.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 02:11AM by MJ.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others of their ilk. The Mormons, I ambivalent about them, but the hate mongering "Christian Evangelist" TV preachers are the spawn of Satan...JMHO....

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others of their
> ilk.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and TV evangelists would be nothing if it were not for their followers.

The homosexual lobby, obviously. They invented the term. They need to ramp up the fear and paranoia to motivate their base. E.g.: MJ.

...and some day, maybe clicking those heals 3 times really will get you home some day!

But science is rooting out the real cause of homophobia:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

"Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies." we have a spot in the gay pride parade reserved just for YOU.

The people that are really living in fear are the people that are so afraid of gays they have to preach that gays be murdered. Even then, it seems, they are really afraid of their true selves.


But when it gets down to it I am doing nothing but REPEATING what the factual evidence points out. Thus, if you have a problem with what I am REPEATING you have a problem with the facts as we know them, with reality.

"click, Click, Click" Keep on trying, you'll find a way out of your fantasy world!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 12:53AM by MJ.

but have no problem attacking the person that is presenting the data?

Second Class citizen really? If you just lived your life most people wouldn't even know or care that your gay. It's the constant grandstanding and agenda that drives people crazy. I can't read anything or watch the news without a gay agenda. I could care less what someone does in the bedroom why is this a constant topic.

I can think of no faster way to land my ass in a concentration camp.

Currently gays denied benefits and legal protections guaranteed by the government.

But thanks for telling me that I should just sit in the back of the bus then nobody would care.

Do you even realize how much of a jerk you sound like? That you are blaming the victims?

It is a constant topic because people that are denied rights are demanding their rights, and because preachers are saying should be rounded up an put into concentration camps.

Put poor little Captain, he is tired of hearing about it. Such a fucking burden for Captain, Sniff, sniff.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 02:02AM by MJ.

You have no idea how seriously the homosexual lobby really needs those lunatic backwoods preachers. They're advancing a cause based on those marginal hicks ... hell, they should be paying nuts like the Westboro Baptist folks a royalty.

Still clicking those heals?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 02:08AM by MJ.

Who does all the screaming and crying and the "please think of the children" bullshit? It's the people/leaders from patriarchal religious backgrounds.

Homophobia is rooted in misogyny. Once the patriarchal religions started losing the battle against women's rights, they turned to demonizing homosexuals when they started standing up for their rights. Google misogyny and homophobia.

Just remember MJ, you are fine as long as you keep your Q mouth shut and don't ask for equality. Give me a fucking break.

"Homophobia is rooted in misogyny. Once the patriarchal religions started losing the battle against women's rights, they turned to demonizing homosexuals when they started standing up for their rights."

And the end result of this crypto-fascist "equality" fanaticism?

Everyone becomes safely neutered, in effect. Physically, mentally, spiritually, politically.

Penis envy, inflated into an ontological metaphysic.

Working yet?

"crypto-fascist 'equality' fanaticism"

Did saying that make you feel like you actually knew something?

If it did, your feeling was wrong.

When I read the subject line, my immediate reaction was "What is Religion?" (remember, your answer must come in the form of a question).

Surprisingly, as you point out, the "statistician" can't seem to produce any statistics to the contrary. You just have to accept that you're wrong based on his position. How many times have you heard that?

Let's look at our top three:

Evangelical Churches
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is or is not this group of religious types synonymous with dumb-assery?

So here we are on a Ex-Mormon board where you would think folks are at least semi-enlightened about the fraud all religion really is and you still have to endure this s**t:

"Second Class citizen really? If you just lived your life most people wouldn't even know or care that your gay. It's the constant grandstanding and agenda that drives people crazy. I can't read anything or watch the news without a gay agenda. I could care less what someone does in the bedroom why is this a constant topic."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,518779,519016#msg-519016

Guess someone ain't in the habit of listening to himself. Did same-sex marriage become law while I wasn't looking? I'll wager dollars to donuts the good captain shared the same sentiments during the Civil Rights movement. These types just move from hating one group to another as the current trend allows. Don't know what captain's religious affiliation is, but I bet it starts with a "C".

This is a laugher:

It's not a "who"; it's a "what".

The Old Testament, which clearly forbids homosexuality.
The New Testament, which clearly forbids homosexuality.
The Qu'ran, which clearly forbids homosexuality.

As long as there are "people of the book", there will be people who disapprove of homosexuality.

God, for instance."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,518779,518895#msg-518895

What is a god or a book without blind followers? Just a joke. But the joke becomes extremely dangerous when the blind followers get involved.

For example:

http://youtu.be/H-CAcdta_8I

Remember, these guys speak for god and millions of people actually listen to them!

Getting back to the stat guy:

"MJ everyone is a second class citizen. The establishment treats us all like crap. Unless you are a banker who can buy off politicians you are a second class citizen and you are owned."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,518779,519010#msg-519010

Let me see, MJ. If I compile and analyze the Rub's data, you become a third-class citizen as you don't share the same rights as second-class citizens. How does that make you feel?

And finally, from your original post:

"I think it safe to say that if it were not for the devoutly religious people in the USA, gays would already have full equal rights."

No doubt about that as this thread clearly demonstrates.

I'm not even gonna touch the "Homosexual Lobby" thang. That's a level of dumb-assery that no form of education can correct.

Thanks for the info, Bro!

Timothy

I agree with everything you said.

The mixed reaction did, in a way, surprise me. In this thread I was pleasantly surprised by how few "How dare you criticize religion and hold it accountable" posts there were. When I first came to this board (the time when Raymond was posting), any thread that I mentioned that religion or Christianity was involved in any way got flooded with "how dare you" types of posts with in a couple of minutes.

The reaction that surprised, worried and frightened me were the ignorant people that were so willing to blame the Holocaust on gays in my gay history thread.

There was only ONE person that really flooded both the treads with ignorance, Rubicon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 10:27AM by MJ.

As a statistician, who has done healthoutcomes research for both prospective and retrospective studies, has an education in it etc. I have to say that regardless of how much a genius the statistician is, logistic regression and multivariate analysis can't provide useful information if the surveys are biased.

For instance, I've received calls from organizations that asked questions like: would you vote for President Obama knowing that he won't go to war against Iran even though Iran is building a nuclear bomb? Hopefully you see the bias, if not quit reading here because you're incapable of rational thought. (Sort of like people who throw the word nazi around, I always think of Glen Beck at the Salem witch trials - thou art a nazi- burn him God demands we burn the nazi).

However, if research is unbiased and done with integrity, which given that the data came from the Pew Research Forum a group known for being an ubiased non-profit research group, I would say it is useful. Note how I say the it's not absolute truth- yeah that's because statistics is a representation of a sample of the population, not the whole population. It becomes useful when it becomes representative of the whole population, which again I believe they made every effort to do. It's up to each individual to decide if they've made a best effort in this regard, but before saying their work is rubish it might be a good idea to look at the data and article.

So back to the data:

Looking at the data, I was at first surprised that the Catholic church didn't register more homophobic, but then again they are against contraception too and we've all heard the numbers re use of contraception among members (for those who haven't, apparently over 90% of Catholic women have used some kind of unsactioned contraception again this is a sample). And on an entirely anecdotal note:(Rubish or I mean Rubicon should know that this type of data has no statistical significance, however it's interesting) I have a brother in law with three Aunts who are all nuns at the same convent and believe absolutely that God is a woman. So, you have to wonder whether Catholics are even listening to that old guy in Rome.

So, I would have to say the data as presented does show that Mormon's, Evangelicals, JW's, etc rank high as homophobes which if MJ's article is right indicates they have a higher rate of closeted gays than other religious groups. (ok,that's spinning numbers, but it's so fun).

Finally I have to address those of you who think that LGBT persons already have the same rights and priviledges as heterosexual couples, you are either living in la la land, or some kind of box that doesn't let you see beyond your little hetero front yard. I can't even begin to list the differences between the rights you and your little wiffee get simply because she has a vagina and my SO doesn't. And please don't go there with the 'well get a lawyer and do all the paperwork so you have those rights' - oh yeah and pay his $150 hour fees and hope your SO doesn't have homophobic parents who are going to fight everything if something does happen to him. There are lists of inequalities that still exists for LGBT persons that could easily support another website. It just makes it worse though when people refuse to believe the inequality even exists. After all, we can still ride the bus, we just have to sit in the back, right? (oh and for those of you prone to take things literally that was an allegorical illustration)