Hello all—Long time listener, first time caller.

I'm not ready to be here. I am one still struggling with a nacent crisis of faith. I'm the product of pioneers and prophets, patriarchs and priests. Many accounts I've read here and elsewhere state that the writer wanted to believe while they investigated their faith. I'm still at that stage. If you'll indulge me, though, I'd like to put a question to you all:

How can you be sure?

By this I don't mean "how can you know?" I understand (I think) that faith is a personal acceptance of things you don't necessarily know. What I'm trying to understand is how you (either the reader specifically or anyone ...or how I) can feel surety in your (my) decision?

The evidence —the pile of evidence, the huge, gravity-bending /mountain/ of /damning/ evidence— rocked me to my core, but in all of it, I cannot find anything that proves the whole tangled mess of doctrines and programs and whitewashed history *is* a lie, only a great many things which, if they are true, demonstrate that it is all *probably* a lie. Part of me still holds out hope that I can find something that will explain everything and...un-damage my faith.

I want you all to know that I think you're terribly brave stepping away from the Church. I'm still in, at present, and I am only beginning to get a glimpse of just how scary it is to get out. I envy your ability to make the choice your own.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

I guess you can't be 100% sure, but you can be sure that Joseph was a liar and a hypocrite. This is well documented.

You can be sure that Joseph was an adulterer. That's just a fact. Every "prophet" that illegally practiced polygamy was an adulterer, and this went on until 1945.

You can be sure that Joseph lied about the priesthood restoration, and that the church continues to lie about it.

You can be sure that Joseph lied about the first vision.

You can be sure that Joseph failed to translate the Book of Abraham correctly.

You can be sure that the Book of Mormon is not historical.

Besides all the facts, I tried Moroni's promise, for years, and I received no confirmation from the spirit. When I started having doubts, my wife challenged me to pray about them...to specifically ask if Joseph was a false prophet, if the Book of Mormon was false, etc... I had a feeling that I had never had when praying about the truthfulness of the book. I don't know if that came from god, or if there even is a god, but I'm sure that if there is, he doesn't want me in the mormon church.

One more thing: I'm absolutely sure that I don't want to be a god following "the plan of salvation" after this life. I just know that I don't want that type of dysfunctional family. I don't have what it takes to cast out 1/3 of my spirit children right off the bat. I don't have what it takes to slaughter my own children, no matter how disobedient they are. Even if there was a tiny chance that the church was true, and there's not, I wouldn't be worried...I'd be perfectly comfortable leaving the dirty work to Elohim and Eloher.

it's just an accident of birth that you aren't posting the same question on an ex-JW or ex-Muslim forum...

DNA is not anti-Mormon. DNA simply shows results.

In the case of Mormonism, DNA shows that the Book of Mormon is a fraud.

First of all, welcome. Second, as you probably know from being a long-time listener, it is ok for you to be here... there are folks who are in, out, and all shade of in-between.

We were very active TBMs and we know everyone in our ward and most of the stake. For the past four months, we've been inactive and open about why. People are totally shocked that we're heading out and so are we. In some ways, it would be easier to fake it and continue going. However, the amount of information we found and are still finding is too overwhelming. Church no longer was "magical" to us.

For us, it's been hard. We miss our friends. We miss the worship that we used to enjoy. But in return, we finally feel liberated to be honest with ourselves and others. It is painful, but so far, worth it. We are still very early into this and I suspect that the road ahead is going to be very bumpy, but the honesty is worth it.

Yes, it is a brave thing to do. And scary. I still remember telling my bishop as if it was yesterday... I couldn't believe that I finally opened up and said what I did. One thing that helped me was to think of my kids. The church is living today mostly due to perpetual motion and indoctrinating the next generation. All because of pretending from early leaders. But with my family, it's going to end with this generation. We needed to break the cycle.

Oh, forgot to mention... this helps explain the "spirit":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

And if you haven't read already:

http://cesletter.com
http://mormonthink.com

Speaking from my own experience, the outside world can seem very scary (that is part of being a true believer), but after "coming out", I realize that was all an illusion.

When I left the church a few years ago, one of the foremost questions in my mind was how long it would take to make the adjustment and feel "right" about leaving. Looking back from my current perspective I realize that it wasn't that big of a deal at all and it is quite liberating! You couldn't pay me enough to go back now.

Hi atouchscreendarkly,


I know very well the place you are in right now because I've been there and remember it being very uncomfortable.

My faith was "rocked" to "my core" before the prevalence of the internet ('90s) and without any support from others. I went through my "faith crisis" completely alone. I could not even gather strength from the jack-mos I knew because they all believed but simply "couldn't live the gospel." I could "live the gospel," easily, but I was having extreme difficulty believing "the gospel," whatever that even meant.

To stay Mormon (I was married with 3 babies and an extended family with nary a questioner among them and only a few jack-mos) I tried to think about the things that bothered my intelligence less literally and more metaphorically or symbolically. That worked for a time. I used this to hold off my "faith crisis" while I dug further into mormon books looking for the "deeper doctrine", more meat than the Temple etc.

My digging lead me to the Journal of Discourses and The History of the Church, buried deep in a neglected corner of an old friend of my father-in-law. I read and read and read. And then read some more. And after that read again.

What I finally concluded was that it didn't matter anymore whether or not "the church was true." What I found was that "the church" was certainly not good. I found Brigham Young exceptionally repugnant, and just the whole tone of the early church, based on their own writings, as the very opposite of a Christ-centred good and loving church.

That tipped my scales. I went after the doctrine and history more sceptically and persistently, taking my questions to my Bishop, which lead me to the Stake President, who referred me to CES. I found that it was impossible for me to remain mormon AND view Elohim metaphorically or symbolically, for an example among many, and was told to repent and take care not to rely on the pride of learning. Who was I, I was told, to think I knew more than the Apostles and Prophet (and, what they were really saying, the Bish, SP and Institute teacher.) Well, that was it, in my heart I was done.

I didn't leave all at once, and I didn't feel "surety" all at once, but I knew in my heart it was over. If "the church" is true then it isn't a good church. If the mormon god is God then God is not good. I knew that I needed to follow that which is good before following a god. If I was wrong, I reasoned, then I could at least tell Jesus on judgement day that I sincerely believed that The Good is higher than Obedience.

I went through the above with great fear and trepidation, believe me. It was scary as hell, since hell seemed a possible outcome.



Since then (signed my resignation request in 2000, with TBM wife and children in tow, thankfully) I've gained the "surety" you are looking for. The internet and this site didn't help me to get out because I didn't know about it then, but it certainly has helped me confirm what I had experienced, and helped me realize that I wasn't alone, that many were as troubled as I was (and you are) by the truth claims of LDSinc, by history and doctrines, and by its willingness to lie to deceive to keep the ball going, as it were.


Good luck to you.

Human

I was a 6th generation mormon myself. In fact, I was doing some family history research on-line yesterday and found a picture of my great-great-great grandfather's temple recommend for the Nauvoo temple baptistery.

I didn't resign over all the damning evidence. I learned about all that later. I resigned because the mormon church was destroying me. I've always known I'm gay, and growing up in the church I constantly heard how evil I am. I got to the point where I was severely depressed and attempting suicide. I actually had two mormon therapists tell me I needed to get as far away from the church as I could. It was really hard to do because, "obviously," if I left the church I'd go to hell.

I left anyway and it's the best thing I ever did. Comparing my life in mormonism with my life after is like comparing night and day. I'm happier than I ever believed possible. And my very TBM family has noticed it and mentions it often. My parents now say the regret letting me go to BYU So that is how I know for sure - my life is infinitely, without a doubt, better without mormonism.

Don't forget the story of Jesus leaving the 99 sheep to go after the one that was lost. Take some time away from the mormon church and see how you feel. If you think you made a mistake you can always go back. Jesus will welcome you with open arms.

How much faith do you have in Ra, Zues, Loki, Quetzalcoatl, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

My worldview didn't change overnight, but eventually I was able to evaluate Mormonism in the same way as Greek mythology and all of the other religions I wasn't born into.

Do you really think that sexist, racist, anti-gay, "huge, gravity-bending /mountain/ of /damning/ evidence" is god's true church?

You don't think maybe he could have done a bit better than that?
I mean really, have you read about jesus in the new testament? That jesus wouldn't have made this church that you want surety about.
And I'm an atheist but I can see that real clear from over here. You're too close to the forest to see the trees, obviously.

Quit supporting their disgusting attempts at social engineering with your tithing, please!

How sure does a man need to be that there is no coke machine that was taken from earth and placed on Pluto by aliens?

All those whom you trusted your whole life gave you every reason to think its reality was rock solid. Real things have real evidence. If all real evidence contradicts the existence of the thing you were taught to be real then it is not what you were taught.

Truth is self evident. It needs no shoring up by man’s personal perception of surety. It just is.

Almost six years out now and the contrary evidence for any of the claims of the LDS church being real still keep coming in. Nothing has come in that supports one single item at all. Not one thing.

No real evidence for Nephites or Lamanites or Jaradites (plausible and un-justified conjecture by LDS apologists is not evidence of anything but the delusions in their own minds) has ever been found.

Not one thing. Not one peer reviewed piece of evidence has been found. The BOM peoples never existed. All archeologists outside of Mormonism realize that it is an impossibility that there is no evidence for millions to have lived for over two thousand years in recent history without leaving any evidence.

Civilizations the size and scope of what is described in the BOM would naturally leave massive amounts of their existence behind. Nothing in the BOM stands up to scrutiny. Nothing. Even the honest LDS anthropologists that work in Central and South America call the LDS apologists liars.

No BOM reality, no LDS church led by God. No Temple doctrine, no celestial kingdom, no prieshood powers no LDS heaven, no LDS hell. Eveything about the LDS church becomes moot. Period. No other surety needed.

It is also an impossibility in the modern world for the LDS Apostles to not know the complete lack of evidence. This means they have known and do know the BOM is not based in reality and regardless of how much spittle comes out of Mr Hollands mouth in General Conference as he fallaciously and knowingly claims the BOM is a real history it will never, ever make it so.

You will have surety when you get over your fears and embrace the uncomfortable truth.

Take the courage to do just that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2014 04:54PM by AmIDarkNow?.

It's a journey and discovery that ultimately you have to make on your own.
For me, it was only after I learned critical thinking skills that I finally connected point A to point B even though I'd been staring at them for years.
Reading Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World jolted me out of my "what if it is true?" slumber. You might give it a try too.

How to be sure. It's a good question and one that I struggled with at the beginning. What if I get it wrong? (see pascal's wager).

Surety only comes if you do the research yourself. Reading things here, reading the CES letter, mormonthink etc, you are reading the works of others. So, it's possible that they are all lying and making it up. You can resolve this by doing what research you can to see how things stack up, but sometimes that's not practical, how many of us are specialists in DNA?

So, how did I come to be fairly confident in my surety that the church is absolutely nothing I want my name associated with? Time. It took time and a lot of pondering, from as objective a point of view as I could muster (which I got better at over time) what the church really was.

The church is good at what it does. It builds in so many blocks to objectivity that the mere suggestion that something is wrong is "Anti-mormon" and to be avoided at all costs. That was a big sign to me that something was wrong. If something is good and right and "worthy" shouldn't anyone, and I mean anyone be able to shine a light on it and it come out looking pretty good? The church fails this test, and they know it. Shine a light on the church, it's history, pretty much any part of it, and it comes off looking dirty, they can't have you looking at that.

So, you have crossed the bridge far enough to see that there is actually a "...pile of evidence, the huge, gravity-bending /mountain/ of /damning/ evidence", but it's still hard to see. Keep probing and looking at that and the church itself, what does their doctrine really teach, do they really act the way you would expect a "good" organization to do so. Give yourself time. Oddly it both took me a long time and then everything fell into place and a switch was fliped in my head and it all made sense. There is no rush.

There is no surety where faith is involved that is why it is faith and not fact. Some go from the church to a state of confusion of whether or not God is real. Some choose not to believe in God at all. Others go to some other faith than Mormonism. As for me, it took thirteen years to end my confused state concerning God's existence. It was a hard journey, but worth the trip to finally find Christ in the church that I had left forty-three years earlier to become a TBM. It's a strange pathway we travel in this life and each person's is different. Keep an open mind. Think for yourself. Be weary of "friends' trying to help you form your opinions because you can only count on those that are truly your own.

The Gosple is often referred to as “simple truths”. That statement is appealing because it indicates that the Gosple is easy to understand, and therefore is easy to believe. However when you leave the Church, it is no longer “simple truths”, it is hard to condense all the scattered reasons to not believe in TSCC into a reconciled disbelief about it. You can’t reaffirm yourself that TSCC is false with one simple experience as you can when believing in the church. I would recommend organizing all the reasons you have to believe in TSCC, and then assess the validity of each of those statements.

Also one believes what they live. I’m practically atheist and when I’m stuck at Church I find myself empathizing with all the people who believe TSCC is true. When everyone around me talks about the Gosple as if it were true, I get caught up in the Moment and it becomes reality (like watching T.V. becomes your vicarious reality for the moment). However when you surround yourself with those who don’t believe in TSCC, it conversely becomes natural to not believe it. The statement “doubt your doubts, before you doubt your faith” is effective because it forces you to stay in the vibe of religious company affecting your mindset.

Finally value a life without the Church. I’ve heard: life is pointless if the Church isn’t true, so why go against it? What is there to fight for; your meaningless life? I am surprised that I still value my life to the same extent as I did in the church- even after changing my perspective of my life to a limited life time span. But I believe living the moment is important, and my influence on future generations will be everlasting. I am still passionate, and passion is purpose. But that’s me, the true beauty is that you get to choose your own meaning after dropping the Church’s philosophy.

P.S. Consider setting up a condition for your leaving of the Church/ a final straw. For me I decided it would be my patriarchal blessing- if it did not address anything truly personal to me, that would be the final straw. Indeed the blessing did not leave anything very significant, or relevant to my doubts. The blessing just sounded like one of those personality quizzes, which seem personal but could be applied to anyone. But even then, I still wasn’t letting go of my faith, but soon after I put my foot down and decided I needed to stop fooling myself. Let it goo, let it goo, don’t hold yourself back any mooore (Even though other people will :(.)

It is also worth mentioning that despite the Church claiming that you are to rely on the Spirit to know of the Church’s truthfulness, they still give you random facts that indicate TSCC is true. What ends up happening is that you hear so many random details that you forget most of them, but the feeling of reassurance you got from them stays with you. So when you are trying to objectively asses what you know about TSCC’s truthfulness, you may not come up with a whole lot, but in the back of your mind your thinking that there must be so much more that your forgetting to consider. And that your feelings of assurance that the church is true must be valid. So TSCC builds up prejudice that way. Learning what confirmation bias is will help combat that prejudice- after I learned that psychology term I was able to spot tons of confirmation bias in Church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2014 06:30PM by blissfulcrush.

If it doesn't make sense it's not true. Money digging, rocks in hats, conflicting "first" visions, chasing after young girls that were dependent on him, going after MARRIED women (some he sent the husbands out of town). Is God so petty that he cares about your underwear? So childish that he wants people to have super secret new names and learn special hand signals? Illogical.

Here is something you may find of interest.
http://www.conchisle.com/magic.htm

You are looking for the proverbial "smoking gun." What you have instead is a preponderance of the evidence.

I would take some time away from the Mormon church. Take a few months off. You are getting a constant stream of messages from believers. What you need is some time with your own thoughts. The church will still be there should you decide to go back.

I was in your shoes last year. It was so incredibly difficult to even think about TSCC not being true. I realized that if a person is repeatedly told something many times a week for many years, it is going to become their truth. And if I was born to Jewish/Muslim/fill in the blank parents and they taught me the same thing since birth, repeating it over and over and over again, I would believe it. After I came to this realization, I was open to the idea that TSCC *might* not be true. I knew I didn't like everything about it and didn't like how I was (judgemental, ashamed, passive-aggressive) when going to church. But that was hardly enough for me to risk eternal damnation. Once I started finding out about Joseph Smiths marriages to 14 year olds and the connection between the temple and Free Masonry, things started to crumble. I did a little more research and I realized that IF I believed in a God, it wasn't the same God as the Mormons believe in. My God wouldn't be rude to somebody because they have tattoos or becuase they smoke cigarettes. My God would want us to be happy and fulfilled and help others along their journey, regardless of their religion. I had to get to a point that EVEN IF the church were true, I was willing to walk away from it because of the damage it was doing to my psyche. My heart and my head were not in the same place and that was tearing me a part. Since then I've done more research and it seems crazy that I spent my entire life devoted to TSCC. I really don't have any doubts that I chose the correct path, but I had to walk away and let it go before I KNEW. And that is the most difficult part.

Good luck! It's a difficult road, whichever you choose.

When I decided to leave the church, I can't say that I was 100% sure that the church was false or even that I was completely sure that I was making the right decision. But, I decided that I didn't really need to be 100% sure. My decision to leave didn't have to be permanent if I didn't want it to. The church would still be there if at any time I changed my mind and wanted to go back. To this day, I still try to keep an open mind about the church. I still look at evidence and church history from both sides. Yet, there's been nothing to prove my decision wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2014 07:35PM by want2bx.

I left because I couldn't respect a God who would need a 'one true church' so desperately that he'd reject those not associated with it. It is particularly asinine that he can't seem to keep it growing. It failed after Christ and the authority was lost, and now after billions of his children have lived here, only a tiny fraction of a percent are Mormons with true authority.

It stinks.

I had suspected it wasn't true for a really long time. Don't actually remember ever having a "firm testimony." But a year ago the NY Times article about Hans Mattson started me on a research quest. I was trained as both a journalist and academic researcher, and for the first time applied those skills to my religion. I looked for unbiased, reliable historical resources. Not someone's interpretation, but court records, personal journals, and LDS scriptures themselves. I insisted on reviewing church resources to see the other side - soon figured out that apologists often don't make sense. They throw a lot of unrelated details, long words, and complex sentences at you, introducing ways to "doubt your doubts" and attempting, I think, to convince you that someone smart still believes, so you should. It is so difficult to make it through those defensive essays - unless you had spent years reading esoteric academic journals and critiquing the logic like I had to. Apologist arguments are tough to read but they almost never make sense.

It took most of my time and attention for a full summer, but in the end I am completely certain: The early Mormon leaders were not the good men I was raised to respect. They were criminals, philanderers, pedaphiles, con men and even killers. Smith and Young were particularly unsavory characters who would make the fundamentalist Jeff's clan look good. I cannot accept the notion of the loving, all-knowing Mormon god who finds car keys choosing those guys as prophets when there are so many better men out there. I would be willing to bet you are much more qualified.

Lead yourself to the light. Don't take my word or anyone else's. the Internet is a gift. Read the Expositor, Smith's fraud conviction, the affitdavits of his neighbors about his character. Study who the witnesses were, their character, what happened to them later. Read the letters Smith wrote to young girls like poor Sarah Ann Whitney, Helen Mar Kimball's poetry, and of course, Young's Journal of Discourses.

I think at some point your mind will clear, and suddenly, you will be very sure of what you believe. I was.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2014 07:48PM by vh65.

You are a beautiful writer!