. . . I hadn't."

Not specifically Mormon, but very much on topic. I agree with the author of this short piece: The focus on 'chastity' and controlling (especially) women's sexuality messes with normal development.

http://m.xojane.com/sex/true-love-waits-pledge?utm_medium=facebook



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 10:10AM by Lorraine aka síóg.

Great article. "Ten-year-old girls want to believe in fairy tales" -- so true. Much like Mormon girls who are told that marrying in the temple will guarantee them a happy life.

I've said time and time again...it's just sex. While sex needs to be approached with some maturity, it doesn't need to be demonized. Virginity doesn't need to be accorded a status it doesn't deserve. To do so may bring on the sexual difficulties that this young woman experienced.

I like this subject because I was one of those who did not have sex with my wife until we were married. We met in '65 and I joined the church in '66. We were married in '68 and spent a lot of hours really having a tough time staying "pure." Luckily for us I had to go to Vietnam so for eighteens months we didn't see each other. Eight days after I got home we were married and now forty-six years passed and we are still together. Sex was a learning experience for us and through trial and much error we found out what we liked. We now have four kids, six grandkids and soon to be four great grandkids. I guess we got it right. Oh, about eighteen years ago we left the church as have our kids as well. If we were to be transported back in time my wife and I have discussed how we wouldn't wait. It was very difficult and not worth all the guilt and frustration over the things we did do.

I too waited until my wedding day. It was clumsy but not too hard to figure out it turned out.

But why?!! I think back to all the "opportunities" I "missed" and have a strange sense of regret nearly 3 decades later.

Thoughts like, "I REALLY liked her. I know we wanted each other. How did I resist?" One girlfriend at Ricks even came out to me in a teddy when her roommates were gone. I acted like it was nothing, doing math problems in my head to keep from being aroused.

When I think it through, I know the real reason was the fear of guilt and shame. I was terrified that my life and prospects in the church would be ruined. I had integrity and "knew" that a confession would ruin me.

What a lousy reason to avoid a natural desire... Sad.

"It's your body; it belongs to you, not your church. Your sexuality is nobody's business but yours."




^

I waited, but I was fortunate enough to have been raised by Non Mormons to have a healthy attitude of sex.

I converted to Church Inc at 19, and managed to still have my virginity intact, so I decided to hold on to it.

A few years later, I was engaged and Temple marriage bound.
I will be blunt-my good Priesthood Holder and I fooled around prior to marriage. His rationalization was that we should at least "look" and touch. We did and it was nice!

Right before our marriage, he had a HUGE guilt trip and begged me not to tell anyone what we had done, or they would cancel our wedding. In my future husbands eyes, all should be ok because I was still a virgin.

We got married in the most disappointing Temple Sealing ever. We went off to our quiet honeymoon suite, did the deed (I just wanted to get it over and move on to the good stuff!) and just have guilt free sex.

That never happened. My husband, now ex, had major hang-ups with sex. Getting married was a strange way of him processing his past sexual misgivings. (He lost his virginity drunk and to a hooker. I knew this before getting married and I did not care. He was tested clean and wanted to be monogamous. It was all in the past as far as I was concerned) The guilt of that stuck with him, and marrying the good virgin girl did not absolve him of his feelings.

Sex was still dirty for him. Even if he enjoyed himself in the moment, he had to shower/wash right away because it made him feel gross. Any romantic weekend trip was a waste of time and money "For HIM". He was interested in knocking me up ASAP and got a thrill out of manipulating our/my birth control.

Once I was pregnant, he opted out of sex or sexual behavior so he did not harm the baby.

One day, he told me that he did not care if he ever had sex again, because he did not enjoy it. As far as he was concerned, it was just if things got "too tense" for him and makin babies. He was tired of me trying to "make things better" meaning I asked for him to please me too.

I banished myself to a sexless and affectionless marriage and dove into strengthening my faith to "endure to the end". Along the way, I discovered the hoax of Mormonism and left the church.

When I left, he became abusive. He even told me that someday I would become a drunken whore without the church. Interesting considering I had not ever had a drink and he was the only man at that point I had sex with! There was deep psychological, emotional and physical abuse from this narcissist.

We got divorced and it took me years to date again. The first time I had sex with someone else, the first thought in my head was "Am I cheating?". I was legally divorced. Luckily, he was very gentle and understanding that time, but I broke down in tears and freaked him out. He did not understand that there was this deep catharsis of grief and relief that someone wanted to touch me sexually AND please me...AND IT WORKED! LOL

We did not last and I went on to date again, but I did not get sexual for a LONG time. I had an amazing lover the next go round, who broke down a lot of walls for me. He was shocked how naïve I was sexually, and thrilled interested I was to learn. We did not last because we were not emotionally compatible.

Looking forward, I now know I can feel good about who I am sexually AND emotionally, and look forward to a partner who embraces both simultaneously. It took a long time to get to this healthy place and I will not be wasting that process on just anyone, but there is this new Italian guy I'm spending time with that could be a fun diversion...lol.

RMM

Very nice story. I can relate with my own discovery. My ex-wife and I left the church together but she ended up cheating on me within a couple years. Discovering my sexuality without the hangups of religion was cathartic. Yet scars are still there now and then.

I waited also. I had many, many opportunities that I could have had sex before marriage. I'm glad I didn't though, because I probably would have ended up pregnant. I received no sex education which meant I didn't have a clue about preventing pregnancy. I didn't know how or where to even get a condom.

On the other hand, if I had the proper sex education, I really wish I could have experienced sex before I got married. I've been married over 20 years and have only had sex with my husband.

I didn't wait. The church worked overtime trying to force me to confess every detail. I felt like my sex life was none of their damn business. I refused to talk to some sweaty guy in a suit about it. I hadn't been to church in 7 years. It wasn't even in my thoughts.

Knock on my door late one night. Two sweaty guys in suits that I didn't know. They hand me a summons to a court from a church I hadn't been a part of for years. I threw the envelope and its contents in the trash.

It wasn't long before I went to the mailbox and found a letter saying they had excommunicated me. It was all on speculation of my sex life. HOw God damned sick is that!???

I rejoined the church a decade later (long story). I was amazed nobody asked me about my sex life. Not a peep. Of course I was a respectable married lady with two kids and I was a sahm. The perfect picture of a good mormon housewife.

We moved across the country. DH and I decided after 20 years of marriage it was time to be sealed to each other. We'd been recommend holding members for 20 years. That's when the Stake president decided that I should tell him every little detail, in writing, about my sex life 30 to 40 years ago. What the hell!? No way. My DH told him to Fuck off. I told him to go to hell first, and then Fuck off.

We both resigned.

I now think of my past and smile. I was single in my 20's. It was the 70's. I had a load of fun. I have great memories. So of them funny, sad, erotic, and I feel zero shame about any of it. The mormon church did its level best to try and get me to live a life of shame. It didn't work. I'm not regretful, sorry, or repentant in any way. I do think that the church should be all of those for the way they've treated me though. Their insistence on sticking their nose where it doesn't belong is sick.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 10:56AM by madalice.

Love your story!

madalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We moved across the country. DH and I decided
> after 20 years of marriage it was time to be
> sealed to each other. We'd been recommend holding
> members for 20 years. That's when the Stake
> president decided that I should tell him every
> little detail, in writing, about my sex life 30 to
> 40 years ago. What the hell!? No way. My DH told
> him to Fuck off. I told him to go to hell first,
> and then Fuck off.
>
> We both resigned.

Love that you didn't submit to his unnecessary and sick demands.

My sister went through the same process when she and my bro-in-law decided to go back to church.

She'd been pretty loose (according to church standards) in her youth, and had lost her virginity in college. She had, however, confessed these things to her bishop.

Her new bishop pressed her for details about stuff she'd done all the way back to her teens, much of what she probably confessed.

I remember sitting with her in the kitchen, her eyes filled with tears, saying,"I didn't know it would be this bad" regarding confession and worthiness for temple admission. That was over 20 years ago, and it made me really mad to see her suffer like that. She was so sincere about wanting to do it right and be "worthy", according to TSCC.

I went through my own traumas, too, with moral purity. I thought, from all the preaching I received by GA's and MIA
Standards Nights, any touching of breasts or genitals, even for a nansecond, was serious stuff, and must be repented of ASAP. I became obesessed with sexual sin, and was always running back and forth to the bishop, confessing of things I now realize were
nothing of importance, and some I wasn't even sure happened. It drove me literally crazy.

Word to the wise: forget about confession--no matter what you've done sexually. It's no one's business but yours and your partner's, and if you feel you need to repent, just pray. People can't "absolve" other people for sins anyway. And PLEASE, don't read "The Miracle of Forgiveness"
That book is a recipe for guilt, repression and suicide.

I hate all the shame and blame involved in this church regarding sex. Ironic that its founder, JS, was one of the most promiscuous horndogs of his day.

any sinning done in the past, confessed, and been forgiven, was therefore off the record. Mine, if not theirs. It was yesterday's news and didn't need to be brought up again.

On occasion, I've had bishops try to bring up old stuff, but I stuck to my guns and did the broken record thing: that's already been dealt with and it's over. Bishop So and So said so.

They didn't like it, but while generally slow and balky learners, they usually DID get the message that I was NOT going to discuss "yesterday's news."

We have all been conditioned to give knee-jerk responses to anything an ecclesiastical leaders asks. One of the great things about this board is that we get support and information and learn that we don't have to answer every intrusive thing that they think to ask.

I made the same commitment, but to myself, not a church. That commitment became easier once I joined the morg, but it was a stupid commitment, yet one I kept.

Before I converted, I was dating an amazing guy, but I didn't know it at the time (experience and perspective has helped me realize how awesome this man was). We were making out one night when I told him I was a virgin. He carefully backed off, looked at me and said that he respected my decision and that when I decided the time was right to have sex, he would be honored to make love to me. Yeah, idiot me, I dumped him and joined the church instead.

Why should a man or would be a virgin at marriage? The double standard makes it harder on women, but the answer is obvious: if a woman has sex only with her husband, then her kids are his. If she has had sex before, then she might be carrying someone else's child.

The other major issue (no pun intended) is STDs. You probably won't get an STD as a virgin, but sleeping around will get you one.

There are emotional considerations, but the two physical ones are the reason that chastity is such a virtue. With the pill and penicillin, these have lost importance, but traditional values hold on long after their reason to be has ceased.

Yeah, men Never get an STD or have a baby out of wedlock.

I just said that the chastity fell heavier on women because of pregnancy. A man can get away from a woman he knocked up, but a woman cannot. Both can get STDs from sleeping around.

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If she has had sex before, then she might be carrying someone else's child.

If the woman has sex with another man after marriage, then she might be carrying someone else's child. Marriage is no guarantee of paternity.

> You probably won't get an STD as a virgin, but sleeping around will get you one.

I had an active sex life for years and never once got an STD, never had a pregnancy scare, nothing. It's not that hard, really. I don't know why people insist on making it hard. Maybe if it's that hard for a particular person, that person isn't mature enough to have sex.

This is why Fundies hate sex ed so much. It makes sex much lower risk and thus much more feasible.

Every.single.time. :) I have no patience with those who say, "I was too carried away to worry about protection." Oh, puh-leeze, like the rest of us are somehow lacking in passion.

I think the overvaluation on virginity is more about men's fear of being compared. In "The Gift of Fear," Gavin deBecker asserts that men's greatest fear is being laughed at. Women's greatest fear is that you will kill us. I'm not afraid of being raped; I'm afraid you'll try to kill me while you're at it.

So think a lot of overly religious, highly repressed men live in fear of the judgment that a slutty slut would bring. Why, she might even expect to be given pleasure. She might even think she is entitled to an orgasm! The horror! We can't have that. We might turn pure, pristine, virginal mothers into slutty sluts who demand to have their buttons pushed.

IOW, men who don't have a clue what they are doing are the ones who tend to value virgins because virgins have no basis for comparison. A non-virgin might actually not be satisfied with your fumblings and two-stroke lovin'. A virgin has no idea she could expect more/better.

I was going to wait 'til marriage but after getting to the ripe old age of 27 and still not having been married I finally broke down and let a single mother have her way with me. I was still a believer at that point but had distanced myself from the church enough that I didn't feel any major guilt. From there, I went on to have sex with several other partners, one of which who lived right next to the St. George Temple to hover over us and watch our sinful deeds!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 11:54AM by funeraltaters.

I didn't wait and boy it was fun.

The funny part was that the only thing I confessed was having An$l and got disfellowhipped. After a year or so I was back in. Bishops and his son (So I know he told or warned his family) who condemed me and my actions got a girl knocked up and not just once. He got off without one word.

Even stranger I married into that family so FIL knows what I did

But the kicker his daugther left Moism with me and MIL says I can do no worng. It eats him up inside...

I would like to mention the damage that Mormonism did to murder victim Travis Alexander. Because of holding off his sexuality until he was 28 or so, he was extremely naive and desperate, making him vulnerable to a predator like Jodi Arias.

She lured him into a sexual playground that was forbidden territory and after containing his hormones for fourteen years, he cracked. He agreed to allow her to show him what he had been missing, no doubt planning to repent later and marry a Mormon virgin.

Unfortunately, the virgin of his choice was also naive and blamed him for his erections when they kissed, so she dumped him. If that had not happened, he would have married her. She was a mess of misinformation and guilt which is completely inappropriate for a woman her age.

Men and women who are forced into prizing innocence and virginity above all are using a Middle Ages playbook when forced virginity was the only way a man could be assured that his children were actually his.

Having normal sexual development disturbed by religion produces a person who is the natural victim of a predator. I was "protected" from knowing the facts of life until i was fourteen years old. My parents even managed to avoid telling me when I started menstruating. In those days they believed a child had to specifically ask before they were "ready."

I had no idea men did bad things to girls, so I was not careful.
Fortunately, nothing happened but I look back on it with a shudder.


Kathleen Waters

I thought I would chime in and say that I'm glad I waited until marriage to have sex and so is my spouse.

While I agree that the dogmatic, prude, shaming, guilt-ridden approach of TSCC is damaging, that does not automatically mean waiting for marriage is damaging.

There were psychological, social, emotional, spiritual, physical, and health reasons why it was best case scenario for me and my spouse (and many others) to wait until marriage.

I wanted to throw that out there for those who are reading this thread. It's important, as exMos, to not trade one extreme dogmatic viewpoint for another.

Now that I know better, I am so so so SOOOO fucking glad I did not chain myself to my first boyfriend by condemning myself to him for taking my virginity.

After some further experience in life, I can't believe what a sick, demented, Madonna/whore complex with overtones of torture he has in his little head.
Sex with him still hurt after a year and a half, and he told me this was normal and good lest I become too aroused by his "natural appetite" and use of my body. And no, he was not overly large or anything, very very average. Just fucking mental.

No woman should buy into those licked cupcake, chewed gum analogies!
Nor men neither, but I've never heard a story like mine with the genders reversed.

virginity is highly over rated.

I regret waiting now.

This is something that has been the source of a lot of resentment for me. I can relate to many of the feelings of guilt and shame growing up that so many describe here.

Furthermore, when I did marry, I was still pretty naive while the person I married had a significant amount of experience. It didn't bother me that much at the time that we got married, but I later found that it has been incredibly difficult to come terms with it. I don't know that I ever will.

Perhaps I am being ridiculous here. It shouldn't be a big deal. But it is. But whatever my emotional hangups are, I can at least say this much: like the OP, I have deep regrets about waiting as long as I did to have sex. All of that guilt and frustration served absolutely no purpose at all.

Not married and am not waiting. Having sexual experience is important before making a lifetime commitment. Abstinence is like buying a car without a test drive.

My wife and I didn't join the church until after we were married so we definitely had pre-marital sex and it was great, but as I grew in the church, I was continually bombarded with the teaching that a couple shouldn't do certain foreplay in marriage, and over the years, I began feeling guilty. Gradually, as my wife still wanted sex and she was still a pretty, shapely gal in her late fifties, all that teaching affected me, and I no longer wanted sex. I offered several excuses, but after dropping out of church more than 2 years ago, I began to see how the church had such a poor influence on my married life. I will soon purchase that book on Mormon mind control and I hope I can get rid of sexual guilt.