I am an atheist and am having second thoughts after a relatives Near death experience. My 5 year old relative died in a drowning accident and was revived. Afterwards he said his dead grandmother and uncle stayed with him until he came back to life. I find this very interesting but so confusing as well. Any thoughts?

I kinda like my meat dead.

I would accept the fact that we do not know everything and let it go. BTW,life after death does not necessarily mean thwre is a god and the existence of god doesnt necessarily mean thwre is an afterlife

Hospitals put secret numbers on the tops of cabinets in emergency rooms. This is so that when people say they "floated above the room during a near death experience" they should be able to read the secret numbers.


No one has ever been able to read those numbers. Near death experiences are most likely just the result of oxygen deprivation doing strange things to the brain. In fact, scientists have been able to induce near death experiences simply by stimulating specific parts of the brain.

Either way it's not fact nor is it done at every hospital as you suggest. But makes for a good email spam to friends and family

This type of research has been done. Dr. Sam Parnia is the director of resuscitation research at the Stony Brook University School of Medicine. He places images in places where a patient would only be able to see them if they were floating above thier body the way many people describe in NDEs.

Interview: http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172495667/resuscitation-experiences-and-erasing-death

His book: http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Death-Science-Rewriting-Boundaries/dp/006208061X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407200813&sr=1-1&keywords=sam+parnia

My husband was in ICU for five days and sadly died. I never left that room and at times was on top chairs etc. and there was no such secret numbers. That's just dumb.

None of us know, really if there is an after-life or not. No one knows...

That's because the numbers are invisible and can only be seen with spiritual eyes.

They are invisible because only a few hospitals have done this

Do you have a link or some kind of source that shows that hospitals put secret numbers on top of filing cabinets?

Why would hospitals even do that? They're in the business of taking care of sick and injured people, not debunking near-death experiences.

I saw a documentary where scientists studying NDEs did this in one hospital. As far as I know it was only that one. At best it would be a few, so I dont think this really proves anything.Even if someone did have an NDE in that hospital,who is to say that letters written near the ceiling would be something that they would notice?

Hypoxia plays tricks on the brain, and young children are very open to suggestions from others, which may reprocess and regurgitate.

I don't believe in a christian god, but I believe my dead grandparents and uncles are out there too, but not like Mormon spirits, but more as part of life, of being and existence. They are a part of me, and of my kids, I have some of their DNA in all my cells.

Create your own belief system that is comfortable and gives you comfort.
The older I become, the more my World View evolves.

I have personally talked to several people who had NDEs. I have read hundreds of accounts. They do not prove or disprove dualism, God, or an after-life.

However, these experiences should make us think and ask questions. Sure, SOME aspects of NDEs can be replicated by drugs or brain manipulation. But, I have not heard of a legitimate explanation for people seeing deceased people they never knew existed or seeing/hearing people MILES away from where their body is 'dead'.

No matter where someone is at on this issue, neither side can prove or disprove these NDEs in any sort of concrete manner.

I don't understand why it would be a struggle to question atheism. I have several atheist friends who would love to feel confident in another viewpoint. They go where the evidence leads them and should there be evidence, from their perspective, that led them to believe in dualism or even God, they would be happy about that.

+1

They don't need to be DISPROVED. All that matters is they can't be PROVED.

No proof, no reason to believe it. Skepticism is the default approach.

Xyandro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They don't need to be DISPROVED. All that matters
> is they can't be PROVED.
>
> No proof, no reason to believe it. Skepticism is
> the default approach.


Agreed. You are reiterating my point. Therefore, it is EQUALLY valid to belief that NDEs are legitimate dualistic experiences as it is to believe they are due to hallucination.

1) No proof, no reason to believe NDEs exist. Skepticism is the default approach. Meaning, I believe in materialism only.

2) No proof, no reason to believe NDEs do not exist. Skepticism is the default approach. Meaning, I believe in dualism.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your point then. Are you saying that since it can't be proven or disproven we should take no position?

With as many claims as people throw out there, including some really crazy ones, why should we go with such an approach? Why shouldn't the person making the claim have to back it up rather than have people rely on their word alone? This is where things like homoeopathy come from.

With me it comes down to this: there is an infinite set of random things people can believe, and a finite set of things that can be proven. I understand the appeal of playing with the former, but believe sticking with the latter will give the best results.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 06:57PM by Xyandro.

Xyandro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps I'm not understanding your point then.
> Are you saying that since it can't be proven or
> disproven we should take no position?
>
> With as many claims as people throw out there,
> including some really crazy ones, why should we go
> with such an approach? Why shouldn't the person
> making the claim have to back it up rather than
> have people rely on their word alone? This is
> where things like homoeopathy come from.


I'm not advocating not taking a position. Rather, I'm advocating that there is no more or less evidence on either side of the argument. So, both positions are equally valid. I have read numerous pages of research regarding thousands of NDEs, all putting forth some strong, correlated arguments regarding the possibility of dualism. I have also read numerous pages of research regarding thousands of replicated NDE experiences (through brain manipulation and drugs), all putting forth some strong, correlated arguments regarding the possibility of materialism only, founded in brain-induced 'out of body' experiences. Neither side can prove or disprove their point. So, in this instance, I understand the validity of both sides. As for me, I find the dualistic research more convincing, therefore, I continue to believe in some form of dualism. With the open-minded caveat that I could very well be wrong.

Just to confirm, the two sides of the argument are: 1) NDEs are proof of some kind of afterlife, and 2) NDEs are hallucinations caused by a dying brain. Correct?

Assuming that's correct, I don't see how #1 can hold up as a conclusion, when I could make up other conclusions such as "At the instant of death we experience a form of telepathy that allows us to know things we couldn't know", that don't involve an afterlife in any way.

With #2, we have evidence that brains do funky things with oxygen deprivation, certain drugs, etc.

Really the only thing we can really say is that NDEs happen, but aren't consistent and are understood only through the filter of a dying person, which isn't a very good filter.

I think he is saying that there is room here for an open mind. Having an opinion is one thing. Certainty is another. Some of the board atheists act as if science is united against the possibility of NDEs and that the issue has been definitely settled. Uh, no it hasnt.The issue is still being studied and science has not explained all aspects of NDEs

I have an open mind: I'm willing to throw away old beliefs when new evidence comes to light. And after having the certainty of Mormonism ripped away, I'm pretty unwilling to grant that kind of status to anything else. There's always room for doubt.

NDEs are fun to discuss, but don't really constitute proof of anything to me (other than that NDEs happen) since they can't be replicated, and are understood only through a dying brain, which isn't a good way to understand things.

I also find the conclusion that NDEs imply an afterlife to be lacking. There could be other explanations such as telepathy. (Which I also don't believe in, but it's just as valid as the afterlife one.)

That is kind of a closed minded position. Ignore any accounts of NDEs unless there is absolute proof.What is wrong with accepting that some of them are pretty hard to explain and there MIGHT be something there ? You dont have to believe in them, but keeping a mind open to possibilities is a good thing

I'm open-minded to evidence, not any random claim some random person chooses to put out there.

I find it highly suspicious that NDEs generally seem to confirm existing beliefs, including beliefs that are in conflict.

They dont always and even when they do,it could be interpretation.You see a being of light and assume it is your god I consider stories which are confirmed and which the patient knows details of what was happening in another room or while he was out to be evidence until someone gives me an adequate explanation of how someone in an operating room knows what his relatives in a waiting room were doing and saying or how he can describe something he has never seen before.These experiences are very common in NDEs.

The interpretation part is where I start doubting. We all have our strong biases.

Of course there are many things that can't be explained, although I hope that as we mature more we'll narrow that set down.

Although I'll admit I hope for some kind of continuance after this, not wanting dead people to be gone forever, until proof is provided I have to put it in the skeptical realm.

Dualism is a state of being not a state of nature.

NDE's are very emotional things for people. But emotion has no relation to truth.

A five year olds claim to have seen certain people is extremely questionable. They may have seen something in their mind and then later assumed it was an image of a certain person.

There's nothing of substance in any experience I have encountered regarding NDE's. Just faint possibilities and retrofitted hasty conclusions.

sounds like you don't know the difference between dead and mostly dead.

True Love

I know that NDEs occur, as many thousands of people have reported experiencing them.

But for all we know, as the brain cells continue to die, at some point they would just stop producing any activity and the person would go into full unconsciousness and to fully die. The cells of the body don't die off all at once.

For me, if an NDE was an experience actually happening to a so-called spirit or soul, something separate from the body, then everyone should have one if they are close to death. If it's what happens when you die, then it should happen to everyone.

Such a small percentage of people who experience cardiac arrest actually experience NDEs, that I'm convinced it only happens to those people whose brains are functioning just enough to produce one.

Another problem I have with them is that only a privileged few get this opportunity for 'proof'.

Kind of like Mormonism.

Like others have said, who really knows if NDE's are real? I guess the only diffinative way to know is to have one yourself,and then, many people would question it on scientific/biological grounds.

However, I read a book by Dr. Raymond Moody entitled, "Life after Life" in which he interviewed a wide cross section of people who'd been declared legally dead and been revived. These people included true believers of all denominations, agnostics, and atheists, and they all reported leaving their bodies and returning. The thing was, so many of their experiences were similar, the doctor found it fascinating, and wrote a book about it. One particular person reported seeing the back of the nurse's head as the doctors were working on her.
She heard them say, "She's gone". After the patient was revived, she was able to describe in exact detail everything she saw and heard, including being pronounced dead.

NOW...before I get blasted by non-believers (and I respect your right to NOT believe) it's just a book, and, like I said before,
who really knows. Anyway, it was a fascinating read. It would be cool if it was true...unless you wound up in hell.

so tell me about this Dr. Raymond Moody guy.

To the OP- The thing about NDE's, there are all just stories. What matters is your own experience. What is your own experience telling you about life after death? What is your own experience telling you about any of this?

Mormonism plays on the idea of believing other peoples' stories about things. Who cares about their stories? Someone could approach me and tell me they had a vision where they saw God and Jesus.. why does that matter to me? There is no proof that they have had whatever vision..and even if they did.. I would just be buying into someone's story about something. I would be trusting someone else's subjective experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 07:24PM by gracewarrior.

A few facts

Death is fatal 100% of the time.

One cannot be both dead and not dead.

Almost being dead is not the same as being dead.

If you are not dead you are alive.

The numbers on the cabinets are part numbers, and only someone concerned enough with replacing parts will care enough to read them.

NDEs are real, they happen to lots of people.

Accepting that NDEs are spiritual in nature is a matter of faith.

Believing that NDEs are an explainable physiological/physiological occurrence does not require faith.

The only thing that a person of faith must do to discredit a scientific explanation is say that they have faith.

A scientific explanation does not have the good fortune of calling bullshit. It can only explain that a faith based explanation is not testable.

TSCC is true. Now if you are going to believe the claims of people, just because they claim something, why not TSCC?

I've floated above my body and looked back at myself while public speaking.

Can't we believe in an after life that is not controlled by God or religion?

Atheism = disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Why We See The White Light Near Death: http://youtu.be/7AHpqstcDEk

http://www.woerlee.org

Read the book "Mortal Minds"