I need some advice, my 18 year old daughter is currently dating a mormon and has very suddenly decided to attend the church and is about to be baptized in. I can't get her to do any research outside the church and she won't take my advice to put off the baptism until she has spent at least a year going to the church to make sure it is what she really beleives. She is already pulling away from the family and spends all of her free time with his family and the missionaries. Does anyone have any advice on how to get through to her or am I just stuck watching the train wreck happen?

Put her name on the alter at the temple.

Hahahahahahhahaha

Hormonal conversions work both ways.

I know of a young lady who's parents are divorced and who's father is LDS. She moved to Magrath to live with her Dad and take her last 2 years of high school. Wasn't long before she was boasting on facebook how she was gonna get baptized in the Mormon church and how it would be the greatest day of her life. Lots of pressure from her classmates I'm guessing. She was raised Presbyterian and I don't think her Mom is please about it. She'll be married and pregnant soon I'm guessing.....probably a RM already on somebodies radar to pair her up with ASAP.

If she's 18, I think she's of legal age and can get baptized without your permission. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Does she have any goals for after high school? Educational or career? Getting baptized may very well influence those--getting baptized at 17 led me to Utah and BYU.

Have you talked to her about her future plans? LEt her know you will love and support her no matter what her religious choices are. If she does join and gets married in the temple, be supportive and show up to wait outside--my never-mo family did and it meant so much to me. Staying close to me and being supportive helped making leaving the church easier for me eventually.

Whether she was in Mormon or not, she is still your daughter. Let her know that. Get to know the Mormon family she's getting close to. Kill them with kindness . . .

I spoke with his daughter and gave her all of my best ammo on why the church wasn't true. Did not good. Now she's married to a Mormon dental student, pregnant, and well on her way to becoming a cliche.

I can't offer any real help, she's 18 and has "hormonal blinders" on; I will prophecy that the guy she's dating will become "just a freind" about 2 days after she's baptized.

Unfortunately, if she wants to believe in it, she will believe in it, and nothing you do is going to change her mind. If she decides to marry her boyfriend, she will probably get married in the temple, and her family won't be allowed to attend, including you.
If she does decide to marry in the temple, you have the hope that she will see how bat$#!+ crazy the religion really is after she's had her endowments in there. Then she can make the exit.

Tell her that you have questions for the missionaries, like these:
how come when you get married in the temple, your husband knows your new name, but you can't know his new name?

How come mormon men can be sealed to more than one wife in the event of death, or after a divorce, but mormon women can't be sealed to more than one man?

Oh dear!

We can give you some resources, but how to get her to listen to you when she is an adult and is excited about her boyfriend is a toughie. As a parent the more you protest the more you push her away and the less you have the chance to influence her. I saw my uncle completely destroy the relationship with his daughter because he protested so strongly to the guy she married. He was right - she had a terrible marriage & got divorced a few years later. Even so, their relationship has never healed. So that is the biggest challenge...


See if you can get her to read wivesofjosephsmith.org. That should at least give her enough pause to realize that she really needs to look into things a little before she jumps in.

Here are some other resources:

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm
http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw
http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm

I will post another reply so this doesn't get too long.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 03:46PM by bc.

You/she should be aware of 3 of the covenants she will be expected to make when she goes to the temple.

Basically she promises to give everything she has, even to die for the church is the church ever asks for it. These promises are made to the church not to God.

In addition she also promises to obey her husband as he obeys God. The husband promises only to obey God. That's right - Mormon women promise to obey their husbands while the men promise to Obey God.

Mormons are not told ahead of time that they will be making these promises - they are in a large room with dozens of people and have no time to think over what they are committing to - they are just told to bow their head and say yes.

Here's the actual wording:

1)
The posterity of Adam down to Moses, and from Moses to Jesus Christ offered up the first fruits of the field, and the firstlings of the flock, which continued until the death of Jesus Christ, which ended sacrifice by the shedding of blood. And as Jesus Christ has laid down his life for the redemption of mankind, so we should covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God. All arise. Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this alter that you will observe and keep the Law of Sacrifice

2)
You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of the Lord and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes."

3)
All arise.

Each of you bring your right arm to the square.

You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Each of you bow your head and say, "Yes."

That will do.

She should read Doctrine & Covenants 132. This is CURRENT canon of the LDS church. They officially believe this to be scripture just as accurate and valid and of God as the New Testament.

This "revelation" is basically written to force Emma Smith to let Joseph Smith have additional wives (he already had many before this revelation - he was just keeping them secret from Emma for the most part.)

D&C 132 is difficult to understand but here are some of the most relevant pieces:

[First we establish that Polygamy was a-ok in the Old Testament]

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

[Then we establish that if a man commits adultery that Joseph Smith has the authority to cancel their marriage and reassign the wife to be married to whoever else he chooses.]

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

[Then we establish that Emma has to stay with Joseph and has to be monogamous to him or be destroyed.]

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

[Now we establish that polygamy is fine]

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

[Now she show that although the man can have as many wives as he wants, none of them had better cheat]

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

[And not the big finish. As in the Old Testament the wife has to approve of additional wives like Sarah did for Abraham. Except if she doesn't approve she is the sinner and will be destroyed and the man can go ahead and take the extra wives anyway!]
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 02:34PM by bc.

A couple of scriptures she should be aware of in the Book of Mormon:

[This is in reference to the ancestors of the American Indians. It shows that we should be prejudiced against people with a dark skin, find them loathsome, and not intermarry.]

2 Nephi 5:
21 And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and bdelightsome, that they might not be centicing unto my people the Lord God did cause a dskin of eblackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be aloathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that amixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

[This shows that a teenage boy who hears voices is justified to murder if he needs to other person's possession more than the other person does]

2 Nephi 4
9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

...a bunch of verses where he rationalizes the murder...

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

Your daughter is rapidly becoming what is known as a "hormonal convert." You are going to have a tough time convincing her that the church is a fraud.

Ask her if she thinks it's okay for a man to marry someone else's wife. Then tell her that's exactly what Joseph Smith did. He sent men on missions and married their wives while those men were away. Does this strike her as being moral or ethical?

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Most of those marriages (34) that are listed on that site can be confirmed on the church's own website, Family Search, by inputting the woman's name.

Ask your daughter if she was told about ALL of the 34 wives. Why not? Why was this hidden from her, does she think? What else is the church hiding from her? What excuse was she given for polygamy (i.e. that the widows needed to be taken care of on the frontier.) Is a 14 or 15-year old likely to be a widow? Does that make any sense to her?

Also ask her *how many* different accounts of the first vision are there? (Several.) Why wasn't she told about *all* of them?

http://mormonthink.com/

Richard Packham's site also has lots of useful information. Scroll down and look at the article called, "An Introduction to Mormonism (To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: What the Missionaries Won't Tell You.")

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/

And please educate yourself as well. Stick around here and investigate the short articles on this site.

Welcome!

If she does get baptized, the missionaries will move on. She'll have to be a member for at least a year if she gets married in the temple.

Does anyone have a link showing the temple clothes she'll be married in? Print out a picture and let her know this is what she'll be wearing on her wedding day. (I couldn't find a link)

No flowers, no music, no Dad walking her down the isle.

Here is a pic, tho it makes the apron look blue instead of green
http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/03/07/lds-temple-ceremony-goes-prime-time/

Print the picture out. Make it into a card for her baptism.

Outside of card: Congratulations on your baptism. And if you get married in the temple...

Inside of card with the picture: This is what you'll be wearing while your loving parents and other family members wait outside.

Ask her if she is ok with the control others would have over her. Is she OK with being told what underwear to wear? Does she think it is ok for church leaders to ask her intimate questions including if she masturbates? Does she think it is ok to ignore the racist and completely crazy things early leaders including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said? Did the missionaries tell her Joseph Smith translated the plates by putting his head in a hat? Can she get on board with being part of a church whose founder would tell people an angel with a flaming sword commanded him to polygamously marry them? How does she feel about the fact that if she got married in the temple and she died her husband was free to marry again but if her husband died, too bad, she could only marry in the temple once and she had already used it up.

Remind her IF its true then it can withstand scrutiny and she should feel comfortable researching it outside of the missionaries.

Remind her IF its true it will continue to be true and rushing into something so serious because of a relationship or being horny isn't smart.

Read up on the links provided.

Ask her to bring the missionaries over. Ask that her boyfriend and his family don't attend so there is no ganging up.

Go through some of the missionary program with her present, and ask hard questions. We would love to coach you on what to ask and when and how.

It may only accomplish planting seeds, but she may pay more attention if she has to sit there with you and you don't come across as against it all.

Some very good ideas here.

I was in your position eight years ago when my then 18-year old daughter converted. So, the advice I offer is from the long-term perspective of someone who wasn't able to find the magic bullet and convince my DD that she was making a big mistake.

She actually made her announcement prior to turning eighteen. We refused to give permission and did our best to show her the other side of the story. She managed to dismiss it all away because "it makes me happy".

Several years after that she was married in a LDS temple and we were not permitted to be present. It broke our hearts.

There are two big things we did and do that have been successful:

1. We decided that our love and support for her would never be conditional upon her leaving the church. The love and acceptance found in Mormonism is conditional upon remaining a member. Don't burn that bridge, IF she decides to leave Mormonism she will need it to escape.

This has meant that we are often required to remain quiet about Mormonism and our objections to it. No one wants to feel attacked for their religious beliefs and will avoid interaction with people who are critical. This has paid off big time. She and her DH feel welcome in our home and we feel welcome in theirs. In fact, they were visiting just last week and we all had a great time. Granted they are both pretty liberal Mormons.

2. The second point it related. My deepest fear was that I would lose a relationship with her. That the church would be come too deep of a divide. I told her that and she took it to heart. We have all made a concerted effort to not let that happen. I am not as close to her as I would like; our differing religious beliefs make some conversations too difficult but I am the first person she calls when she needs help or someone to talk to.

I remain hopeful that they will both eventually leave the LDS church. But I have to accept that it may never happen; that my future grandchildren will be raised as Mormons. I hate the Mormon church and its leaders, but I love my daughter and son-in-law more.

Thank you for your advice, the answer "it makes me happy" is exactly the answer she gives and she never gives any actual reasons she feels the need to join. I will certainly do my best to not ailienate her, but her dad is VERY bull headed and I see things going badly with them. When we asked about the wedding issue she just tells us she won't get married at the temple (I have a feeling when the time comes that answer will change) and when we try and have an "adult" conversation about it and ask questions she just clams up. I know that there is nothing I can do to stop her, but I appriciate all of the information everyone is giving me so that I am atleast educated when/if she ever tries to talk to us about it.

One thing that she needs to understand is that she is being love-bombed. Prospective converts are given a *lot* of attention. Once she is baptised, that attention will start to fade away. Tell her that how it is now is not the day-to-day life she will find in the church.

What are the things that she loves to do that she would be giving up by entering the morg cult? Lazy Sundays or other well-loved Sunday activities? Has she always dreamed of a fairy tale wedding? Does she love pretty, sexy underwear? Shorts in hot weather? Perhaps you can locate a crack in her determination through shopping at Victoria's secret or taking a Sunday hike.

Maybe the best cure is going to Cancun for two weeks of sampling pina coladas and playing in the surf. That would shake the mormy out of her.

I would plead with her to read the links that bc and summer provided. If she actually reads those, I truly believe it would cure her from wanting to join Mormonism. I would tell her if she reads those then she will be making an INFORMED decision about getting baptized and you would then respect her decision what she chooses after that.

Buy her a pair garments, it that does not scare her off she is lost.

Spending too much time in a cultish environment muddles the brain.

Unfortunately, if she won't read and study to listen to the other side, there isn't an easy way to get through to her. You know her best. If there's something about the mormon church she'd find abhorant, subtlely bring it up in hopes she'll want to know more.

Here are possible topics girls her age might not be happy about in mormonism.

polygamy: Most early Utah mormons were polygamous and many of the wives were underage girls who had little choice.

underwear: It's expected that all of the best mormons will do secret temple rituals which will mean they'll have to wear very ugly long underwear 24/7 for the rest of their lives.

modesty: woment are expected to wear only clothing which covers the magical underwear. That requires high necklines, sbstantial sleeves, and hems at the kneeline. They must wear only dresses or skirts in the church.

At their weddings women must wear ugly temple garb over their very high necked long sleeved modest wedding gowns.

Ask her if you can take the discussions with her and the missionaries; then ask those missionaries questions, real questions about the church and doctrine, make "innocent" comments. That could get her start thinking about it more deeply. =)

I agree with those who have said if you talk bad about the church or try to pull to hard there are more chances of damaging the relationship. If you focus on maintaining communication and a good relationship she may come to you with her doubts. She will have them, all mormons, BIC or converts, do.

Good luck,

I hope for both your sakes her relationship will not last long. The good news is that if she is converted because of a boy then she will most likley become disillusioned when the relationship ends. I have seen this when I was trying to reactivate inactive members as a missionary. This is no guaranteen but it is a distinct possibility.

Make sure to stay close to her and not reject her at all because of it. When she needs someone to talk to about doubts you can be there for her.

this story sounds a lot like me. I married a jack mormon and converted at the end of our marriage.

My mom felt the same exact way she was hysterical and about 1 week before I was to be baptized flipped out majorly.

but I was so ingrained already from the years of seeing how awesome and nice mormons were and the missionaries do a really great job in being your friend so that you will convert.

I didnt listen to my mom or the rest of my non-mo family members.. but they supported me and mom actually would come to sacrament with me.

At a loss- there is some hope though.. I only lasted about 9 months until I stopped going.

Your daughter may come to realize over time the perfection standard that the mormon church places on someone and if the relationship doesnt last she may not last too long either. She may think she is joining for herself but if that mormon boyfriend wasnt in the picture, she'd probably never join. Growing up non-mormon for all your life then converting is pretty hard and the retention rate is pretty low.

At a loss- do you live in a predominant mormon city/state?

Show her the NEWNAMENOAH videos on You Tube.

My parents tried to reason with me. Educate me. They gave me ultimatums.

Nothing worked . . . until, some years later, they decided to simply accept me and love me. And only then did I begin, gradually, to see what they had been trying to tell me all along.

LOVE. It truly is powerful.

The best to you and your daughter. The journey is hard. Love can make it a little less painful.

That is a difficult question. Here is the approximate timeline:

1-11 years I believed TSCC was true, but inside, something kept gnawing at me, a voice that said, "What if it isn't?" During this time I took out my endowments as a "dreaded single adult" (RIP, Deenie!) and I eventually married in the temple, age 30.

Next 5 years or so I believed the church was true--it was the Mormon culture that frustrated me. The voice that said, "What if it isn't?" remained.

Next 5 years or so I was angry that the church was true, and I felt trapped. The voice that said, "What if it isn't?" grew.

Next three years or so I decided to take a break from church so that I wouldn't be angry all the time. The voice that said, "What if it isn't?" grew some more.

Then...and I'm not sure what prompted it...I decided I needed to stop being a fence sitter and figure out if I wanted to go back or not. My nomo friends had always said, "But you're so smart. How could you be a Mormon?" I decided to see if I could find out how Mormon intellectuals handled the "cultural" aspects of Mormonism. I googled Steve Benson's name and found RFM. That was about 12 or 13 years ago.

I devoured everything I could read. Stayed up much of many nights reading. Couldn't get enough. Tried to put the pieces together. The voice inside changed from "I believe the church is true; but what if it isn't?" to "I believe the church is false, but what if it's true?"

My mom died. A friend's dad died. I experienced the death process for both on a very personal level. The experiences extinguished the "what if it's true?" voice. I knew the church was false.

I decided not to return. Was afraid to join any other church. Explored many others. Eventually settled in a new place of Christian worship (go ahead and flame me; it was my choice); the experiences I had with death left me more strongly believing in God, more spiritual than before, and at the same time, less religious.

I began to fight for my kids to no longer attend TSCC. I won.

I didn't resign until almost two years ago. Someone posted on RFM that email resignations wouldn't work. I decided to try anyway. I emailed Greg Dodge and received a response via email. I posted my success on RFM and the other board.

Thirty four years after I'd joined, I finally admitted to my dad that I wasn't a Mormon any more. He cried with joy. We talked about it often after that. He died in March, after a 10 year battle with cancer. I was with him his last ten days, through much of the death process. Yes, I believe in God more than ever, and I am now even less religious than I was six months ago.

I wish my dad had been able to walk me down the aisle when I married. But one of my fondest memories is of me walking him up the aisle to communion, holding his hand to stable him, on the last day he was able to attend church.

Today I am a happy Methodist, though I am still more spiritual than religious. I like the Methodist inclusiveness and their emphasis on social justice. My congregation has a good youth group--that is big on service and community and social justice and having fun. I like our choir. We have good potlucks. The Sunday message is one of love.

I am okay with big ideas in the Bible, but I am not a literalist. I believe love wins. I think too many of today's Christians put far too much emphasis on the law instead of a gospel of love. I abhor legalism. I am a member of the Christian Left.

I kept my doubts secret from my husband, and from my parents, for many years. If I have regrets, the first is that I did not share my disbelief with my husband in baby steps, as I was taking them. We have grown apart and the elephant in the living room is spilling beyond the walls. My second regret is that I never told my parents that they were right.


How long did I last? For me, leaving Mormonism was a process--a long process. A scary process. A heartwrenching process. I envy those who have an instant deconversion--we've heard of several on the board recently. I followed A-muzing Grace's story some years ago intently, because it was so different than mine, so sudden, so complete, and because she and her husband and family left together. My heart smiles when I read stories like that.

That's how it was for me. Thanks for asking.

I was baptized when I turned 18 because my mother did not give me permission before that. Because she didn't want me to gave me even more reason to be baptized. It was teenage rebellion, and a boy, that influenced my baptism choice.

Maybe you should do what another poster said, you should take the discussions with her. Go to church with her. Try to be an "investigator" and give thoughtful and intelligent questions.

Who knows, maybe she'll be turned off of it because you show interest.

I think if my family had decided to go with me, I would have been embarrassed and stopped going.

Good luck!