So if you read my post yesterday I had things set up so that my wife would reluctantly listen to some of the evidence I have come across that the church was not true. She required that my uber TBM dad would be present.

Then Steve Benson commented on my post. This is the super aggressive, snarky politcal writer. He cautioned me to go easy and not push. This caught my attention - if the aggressive Steve Benson is cautioning me that I am being over-zealous maybe that means something.

So I rethought. I realized this would be a big mistake and go nowhere good. I told my wife she didn't want to listen, she didn't need to, and it wasn't fair of me to ask her to.

However, today I wrote her a letter. I haven't given it to her yet, but I wrote it with posting it as an exit story here in mind.

So here's the letter to my wife / exit story.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?3,596590

If you have any comments before I give it to my wife let me know.

Note: My intent is not to give this entire letter, as is to my wife. This is the exit story version - what I give her will be shorter and remove some details.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 09:16AM by bc.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 01:52AM by steve benson.

C'mon it was meant as a compliment :) Let's just say you don't pull any punches.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 02:00AM by bc.

Hi bc,

On your original thread, I, too, suggested like our super aggressive, snarky political cartoonist that you back away (hope you heard the sarcasm in my remark, sb) because this seemed like your quest, not hers, and she didn't want to hear it.

I think your exit letter is awesome, but it's not "backing off" in terms of what you just told your wife. Give her the beginning of the letter, this part:

"I recognize we have a difficult path. I recognize we have never had an easy marriage. However, I want to be very clear. I would not choose to be married to anyone but you. If I could choose anyone in the world you would be that choice.

"You are the one I love. You are the one I want. You are my best friend that I have experienced 18 years with. You are the mother of my children. You are the one who knows me. You are the one I know. You truly are the most beautiful woman in the world in my eyes. I love you completely, fully, deeply. You are the most important thing in my life followed by our children. I believe we have the potential for our marriage to be closer and more real and better than it has ever been.

"Sometimes I feel like we are so close to it being that way that I can almost reach out and touch it. I know the difference in belief is hard for both of us, but on my part it doesn’t have to stop the closeness. I love you deeply and I will do whatever I can figure out to do and whatever I have the will to make myself to do to be as close and near to you as possible. I love you."

I removed some of the questions, just to give her only the love you wrote. That's just my take after midnight on a cool summer evening from another cyber female friend of yours on RfM.

toto

This whole topic causes FEAR. LDSInc works hard for it to be that way. FEAR often causes people to dig in. And in all my years here I know for sure that people do not hear till they are ready. And then there is no way to guess what it will be to make that first crack.

My best advice: Be the best you that you can be :) That will help with the fear factor and she may stand down long enough to listen.

Yup. Slow is the way to go. It's taken me 3 years but DW and I, we're reading all the good 'anti' stuff together now. I'm confident mine will now be one of those lucky situations where the marriage survives. We have conquered our fears.

I'm not the one who has experience in this area, as I've never had to cautiously explain my position to everyone. Bull in a china shop did just fine for me. Finessing isn't my strong point when it comes to the Morg.

However, I hope in there you can let her know if she decides to bounce, there are people out here who want to welcome her as friends. After getting to somewhat know you pretty well (hell, maybe a lot deeper than some of your real-life people do, because of the nature of this place), I feel invested in wanting to see her happy and thrive with you. I've come to know you as someone truly special and because of the Morg, I'm not entirely certain she knows just how lucky she actually is to have you.

I feel like if she got out, she'd have an experience unlike any she could ever have inside.

So take everyone else's advice. Maybe if she listens and ever comes here, you can show her this place--and start to realize you have a lot better thing going than she ever realized possible.

Best of luck, bro. Keeping my fingers crossed.

EDIT: Found the letter you wrote and read all of it. Personally, I think it about hits the nail on the head. Some may have issues with this or that, but I believe in 100% authenticity if you're going to have a relationship, and that is quite clearly the authentic you.

Either which way it goes, it sounds like you need to change the dynamic. Sitting on your hands isn't making you any happier. At the very least, she at least needs to get to the point of LIKING who you are and respecting that you're different. That's always a challenge for anyone on the inside, but she's in need of doing it.

Good luck, my man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 04:04AM by flyboy21.

You have written a very powerful letter, and I hope your wife reads it carefully. I only make one comment -

Avoid saying age or weight don't matter. Telling someone they are growing more beautiful and loveable with time is OK, but don't bring up any flaws to excuse them. Just show that they are non-issues and you have completely overlooked them.

This may be important given your wife may have been mentally weighing herself up against the images she believes you desire. Non-mormon couples counselling that takes an evidence-based approach to relationships and pornography would be useful, although realistically it is not likely. Sadly, Mormon attitudes, male and female, contribute to the vicious cycle of sexual repression and covert pornography dependence that thrives in Utah and other areas today.

Also spellcheck strikes again - circumscribed/circumcised

Just to be clear my wife is neither overweight nor old. She is actually very thin and beautiful. So it was meant as reassurance that even if those things changed she would still be beautiful to me. Even so I'll probably reword it some - thanks for the advise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 09:22AM by bc.

where you talked about how much you love your wife.

I would NOT recount all your past "sins". Even if you completely repented, she's STILL going to blame your lack of belief on that. Basically, any Mormon who has ever sinned has no right to think for themselves or doubt. And I wouldn't put that much information about your past in writing. Besides, it really is nobody's business. No matter what she or the church thinks about it.

I also wouldn't get into too much dirt on Joseph Smith. If she doesn't want to talk about it, don't. But you could maybe ask her if she would be willing to read a written summary of your objections, that she could read over and research, or ask your dad about. And you could give it to her later, with permission.

But I WOULD include the stuff about her behavior that you can no longer accept. Because, like I said in another post, those types of attitudes and behavior would be a dealbreaker for me in a relationship.

bc--I'm a woman, and I would advise you to cut out the parts about the things you don't like about your wife! You will lose her before you even begin your story. Please edit out any reference to "weight" or "age." Even if it is positive, it is interpreted as negative.

You need to make your letter shorter. For starters, you don't need to mention masturbation and porn. You are merely underscoring her previous notion that you want to sin.

Keep in mind that the purpose of this letter is to convince your wife that the church is not true. It is not to vent about your self. It is about what you have discovered, but not about YOU.

We learned in sales, that LISTENING to the other person is the most important task of all. In writing a letter, you have staged a one-way conversation. She will not like that. She might not even read your letter.

You bragged in your letter that you are a gifted public speaker, who can speak with the spirit! Absolutely, you should speak to her IN PERSON! A face-to-face conversation will have much more impact! If you listen to her, and watch her face, you will know what to say and what not to say. Choose a pleasant, quiet setting, where you are completely alone. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 04:02AM by forestpal.

I will definitely give her a shorter version - this is the version for my exist story - for one I will probably take out the section about where I saw the church as bad - that will just fall on deaf ears.

I'll perhaps tone down the porn some, but it's kind of the whole point of the letter. She already knows that it exists and is a big challenge in our relationship. However, I'm sick of her casting it as the reason I don't believe when it isn't the reason - this is one of the big things I need to address.

My point is actually not to get her to leave the church, it is to get her to quit acting judgmental towards me and to allow me to believe what I believe without the negativity coming from her.

Based on me clarifying what my purpose of the letter is what do you think?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 09:26AM by bc.

I agree that it is a powerful letter. I was in a similar situation with my wife. After years of me being out, she has just recently started reading this and other forums and now no longer believes in the church. In a lot of ways it feels like we are restarting our relationship. We couldn't have gotten to where we are today without a couple of long letters. Some topics were just too hot to handle in person. I hope this goes well for you.

Here are a few thoughts on your letter.

I agree you should remove the reference to age and weight. I can't see it helping in any way. Even if there are body image issues, this is not the time, place, or manner to address them.

It is long and a lot of it is dedicated to recounting years of experience. I don't know if it is possible to shorten it or not. I understand that you are trying to set the record straight and give your version of events. It may be necessary. You know best how she will respond.

One of the things that was key for my wife was understanding how the church hurts our children. You mention the cycle of shame is likely just getting started with your son. It might be helpful to spend a little more time on this point.

I think the Joseph Smith stuff is good. I would make it clear that his behavior is just an example. You are not presenting an exhaustive list or trying to present a well argued case in this letter. Me concern would be that she would latch on to the historical and doctrinal concerns you have presented in the letter and think that she understands all of your issues.

You might consider changing your tone at the end. You could add a paragraph letting her know what you need from her and painting a picture of how you would like your relationship to be. It could contrast nicely with the paragraph where you list the things you cannot accept. This way your tone at the end will be more of a solicitation and a request on your part.

Give her lots of time to respond. Initially she may react poorly, let that go. Give it weeks or months or whatever is necessary for it to sink in. You're hitting her with a lot of stuff and she needs to process it emotionally and intellectually.

Wow Brian,
As a woman, I want to put my 2 cents worth in. Reading such an intimate letter allowed me to see how much pain you have been through. I also reveals how much you love your wife and family. I personally believe that she is very lucky to have you, a husband who is thoughtful (the thought that went into this letter proves that), caring, and wanting to do the right thing........
I agree with forestpal in that it needs to be shortened. And no, don't mention porn at all. You really want to convince your wife that what you have learned about the church is important knowledge and that you cannot fake a belief or testimony because living with that falsity of it is too much to bear.
Your desire to quit the church is obviously not about something as unimportant as porn........it is about what is true and what isn't. Obviously you still have some guilt concerning this and you do need to get rid of that guilt, but not in this letter.
In addition change circumscribed to circumcised if you keep that story in your letter.......or maybe leave it as is. A bit of levity might be good.
When is the big talk with her? If you have time, please re-write it and have fewer details about less important things and more details on important things. Have some references concerning the polygamy, polyandry etc. Women hate the idea of those.
Please keep us informed.........remember that I am not criticizing your letter from the standpoint of doing the right thing....just changing the approach a bit. I think you love your wife and family very much or you would not put yourself through this pain. Good Luck!

In your letter, delete:

"age or weight will never change that"

"even the parts I don’t always like"

... and fix:

"every male in the city was circumscribed"

"near and a half"


Most people here advise you to 'go slow' and it sounds like you are doing this; you've been backing off slowly, and in small steps.

Does she realize, however, that she dropped a bomb on you when she said she was "tired of sex" early in your honeymoon? That wasn't going slow. Also, you do have legitimate complaints about her 'telling tales' about you to others. It sounds like she wants to put you down and embarass you, and to make her feel superior to you in others' eyes. Also, she likely enjoys the pity and attention she gets from others, because of her 'difficult situation' of being married to you.

You might want to see if you can find 'Beth'

Good luck.

I'm sure the other posters are right about the Mo aspects, but your story really resonated with me, even though I'm an nevermo and so didn't have all the issues with religion or masturbation (it's medicinal - it makes me feel better ;-), I know many of the things you describe.

And I agree with and would love to have written your first paragraph

"I recognize we have a difficult path. I recognize we have never had an easy marriage. However, I want to be very clear. I would not choose to be married to anyone but you. If I could choose anyone in the world you would be that choice. Would there be someone that would be easier to be married to? - certainly that would be true for both of us. Would there be someone that would be more sexually compatible? - certainly that would be true for both of us. However those people would not be you. You are the one I love. You are the one I want. You are my best friend that I have experienced 18 years with. You are the mother of my children. You are the one who knows me. You are the one I know. You truly are the most beautiful woman in the world in my eyes – age or weight will never change that. I love you completely, fully, deeply. I love all of you, even the parts I don’t always like. You are the most important thing in my life followed by our children. I believe we have the potential for our marriage to be closer and more real and better than it has ever been. Sometimes I feel like we are so close to it being that way that I can almost reach out and touch it. I know the difference in belief is hard for both of us, but on my part it doesn’t have to stop the closeness. I love you deeply and I will do whatever I can figure out to do and whatever I have the will to make myself to do to be as close and near to you as possible. I love you."

It describes exactly how I feel too

Good luck to you

Tom in Paris

I agree about not reminding your wife of mistakes you have made. It will stir up things that she may have let go, or is working on letting go.

I think your decision not to push her to listen is fabulous. My DH did not push me. He didn't ask me to do anything, I chose the path I took. I know I'm a quick study, but that's not the norm, at least not according to what I've read on this board. Getting into a debate or contentious conversation, especially with a third party present is a mistake.

It sounds like your wife is frightened about how many things are going to change for her because of your decision. I felt the same way. I needed to be reassured tht my DH wasn't going to introduce behaviors or choices that we had agreed would not be part of our home and family.

BTW, the parts of your letter where you profess your love to your wife brought tears to my eyes. Well done!

The primary reason for the letter is I am tired of having "you don't believe because you didn't want to believe because you wanted to sin" thrown in my face over and over.

Any ideas on how to address this concern in a more positive way?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2012 09:30AM by bc.

Show her by your actions. Have you added new behaviors that you didn't do before? If so, lots of them? This is very scary. I had sleepless nights just imagining what my DH might choose to do. My DH was super respectful to me. He asked how I felt about him drinking coffee, even if he didn't bring it home. (At first I said it would bother me, then I decided it was ok, then I wanted him to get one when he was out with me so I could kiss him and taste it. Good TBM, me had never even tasted it. Now we both drink it at home.)

I felt that so many things suddenly changed for me. He wouldn't go to church with me, reluctantly prayed with me (knelt while I prayed) at night, no scriptures, no temple, didn't even want to take the boys to scouts, etc. For my DH to add in lots of "sinful" behaviors as well, would have been more than I could bear.

If you want her to eventually listen to the truth, I would make her life as stable and secure as you can. Too many changes, too quickly would make her wonder where the guy she married went.

Very little to nothing has changed in the past several months. The biggest change is I do a lot more work around the house on Sundays. Probably the biggest change overall is that I drink coffee but not around her and the kids

Perfect! Continue to show her by your actions that you didn't leave in order to "sin". I didn't think my husband had, but I was still very concerned about where his values stood. I wanted to know where his moral code was going to come from.

I find myself leaning more and more towards being agnostic, at least for the time being. My recently confessed, newly (to me) agnostic DH finds this a little disconcerting because I have always been a rock and a pillar of faith. Now that I know the church is false, I have to discover what my beliefs are. Ironic that me doubting the existence of God is causing my DH to be a little uneasy, dontcha think?

is abusive.

In abuse literature, it's called "mind-reading". And whether or not they REALIZE the harm they do to you, they ARE harming you. Think about the pain it has caused you. The church has done the same thing, by passing judgement on anyone who has legitimate doubts (telling they aren't sincere, etc), and then convincing them that it's their fault.

The person who claims to be able to read into your mind, and knows your motivations, and is refusing to listen to what YOU say about how you actually feel is also LYING, whether they realize it or not. They do NOT know how you feel, or what you think, and they are trying to impose their own point of view on you by basically claiming that YOU are lying, or that they know you better than you know yourself. It is a form of manipulation, and it inflicts emotional pain.


In other words, they do not see YOU as your really are a are trying to manipulate you and impose their incorrect perceptions on you. In this case, she is probably doing this because she is so set on maintaining her beliefs. At your emotional expense.

Personally, I think it's time to take a look at the abuse literature and learn how to draw boundaries when she tries to pretend to see into your soul, which she has failed at miserably. The author Patricia Evans has some good books on this, one of them has a title to the effect of how to recognize emotional abuse, and how to respond effectively.

I'm not trying to be mean to your wife. She might be a wonderful person with bad habits. She has learned these behaviors at church. Which is one of the biggest reasons WHY the church is so toxic.

Sometimes these habits can be changed. It's difficult, but possible.

Bingo.

The point of this letter is to stand up and not tolerate the abuse.

I read your entire letter as well and, though I don't know you like many of the other people here at RFM, saw clearly and vividly how much pain you've been in for a very long time. Many men, as well as women, don't have the emotional intimacy skills necessary to do what you've done in writing out your feelings. I think your letter is profoundly honest and reflects not only your love for your wife but also your sincere desire to do the right thing by her and your children. I love the way you tell her that she is the only woman you will ever love. In many ways she is a very lucky woman. Would that she could see that.

But I also see that self-flagellation is very much a part of the dynamic in your relationship, and it shouldn't be that way. Seems she has a great deal of control in the marriage, and you've been trying to play catch up for years. Her outright refusal to have sex on your honeymoon is shocking--how she can justify that and then judge you for looking at porn or masturbating is beyond me. Same with her doing things behind your back at church and with family and friends. No matter what the religious issues are, these things shouldn't be happening. And they're a big part of why you feel shame.

I think you've done a remarkable job here. If you want to live an authentic life, you're making a great start. But, as others have pointed out, don't focus so much on your past "sins." They don't matter. And she'll use them to justify her own behavior. Stick with the doctrinal issues and the questions you had as a missionary and as an active member of the church--those things come through loud and clear. And then reinforce at the end how much you want things to work out. As a woman, I think it's sweet that you tell her you'll love her regardless of age, weight or anything else--but that may be something better left unsaid.

I don't think length of the letter is a factor. The crucial thing is that you've opened your heart and your gut--that takes real courage--and I just hope she realizes she's lucky to have you.

You may want to let your wife know something along the lines of: you view her as your friend (or best friend) and you would share things with your best friend, you feel like she's someone that you can/should be able to talk to and that is why you want to talk to her about this.

BC, based on the comments above, I think that I have just read the edited version of your letter. I think it's a very good letter and I would keep it as is with one small edit -- I would take out, "I am the one standing from the position of strength" in the second to last paragraph, because that comes off sounding a bit arrogant, and I believe it will put your wife off. Other than that, it's golden.

It pains me to say this because it's obvious that you love your wife, and that you've spent a lot of time during your marriage trying to please her and to fall into line. But I also think that you've spent a huge amount of time not being true to yourself. Yes, compromise is necessary, but you shouldn't have to lose yourself in the process. Just something to keep in mind.

I wish you the best of luck.

Going anon for this but I am a woman and I think I am close to your age.

Big sigh....I'm so sorry you are going through all this. I just want you to know you are not a bad person for masturbating and looking at porn. Personally, I think it is super hot and too bad your wife won't join you in the fun that can be shared while viewing porn together. Watching your partner pleasuring themselves is a huge turn on for some people. I guess my point is I wish you would stop putting yourself down and apologizing for being a sexual being with a sex drive and preferences. YOU ARE OK THE WAY YOU ARE! You have every right to expect to be married to a person who will lovingly and willingly have sex with you. You have every right to ask for and negotiate your sex life together.

Even if your wife was a great sexual partner and you still liked to view porn and masturbate, that is your choice as an adult with a right to happiness and fulfillment. Do not live your life by the f'd up standards of TSCC.

Sorry for the ramble. I just want YOU to know and internalize that you are normal, sexy, and ok the way you are. STOP apologizing and putting yourself down.

I can only give you perspective based on my experience, so here goes. My first wife was very invested in the church, but also, as a personality type, a perfectionist. She and the church meshed completely because of appearances. It was more important to her to appear perfect to others than it was to be genuine. But she also had an interesting attitude towards the leaders of the church, from JS on down to present day. She saw them as men called to do a difficult job, and they make lots of mistakes doing it. So I finally came to realize that her investment in the church was in the doctrine and gospel, not in the men who were running it. The flaws of JS washed right off her back - he was just a mortal man and made mistakes.

It took me a period of about 5 years of research and study to come to the final conclusion that I could no longer attend. During that time, I would leave my books out, print out information from the web, etc, so she knew full well what I was doing. But she would never want to have a discussion about any of it. She did not want to hear anything I was learning and having difficulty with. That really hurt me. I was having this crisis of faith, and she wouldn't even give it the time of day. Probably out of fear that her perfect temple marriage, celestial kingdom, family all together after-life would be shattered.

But the real point of this is: I, too, tried to write to her to explain what I was going through. That was NOT her communication style. She could not immediately challenge my statements.

Being a perfectionist, during our verbal communications, she had an answer for all the problems in our relationship, and none of them involved her changing. If I brought up something that bothered me, her immediate response would be to tell me that I had done something to trigger that response, so it was my fault.

So when I changed the dynamic and gave her letters trying to explain my feelings and positions, it backfired. She thought that I didn't want to LISTEN to her side, that I only wanted a forum to defend my own side of things and make it look like it was all her fault. I was only trying to explain my feelings, and she took it as placing blame on her. Not my intent at all.

I thought that I wrote very heartfelt and loving letters to her. She took them in a totally different way - she thought I was placing all the blame for our relationship difficulties on her, and that was not my intent or content of the letters at all.

In the end, I became trapped in a situation where I could not write things to her at all and have them understood, nor could I talk to her face to face without her defending every point by placing blame back on me. Perhaps unbiased counseling would have helped, but her first response was to talk to the bishop, who sided with her on every point. I ended up going to a counselor by myself just to try and find some sense of it all. Within weeks we were separated and working out divorce issues.

Hindsight is 20/20. Could I have done things differently? Probably. But had I the opportunity to do it all over again, I really don't know what I could have done to gain more empathy and understanding from her. I didn't expect her to agree with me on the church issues. Like you, I only wanted to not be marginalized by having an opinion different than hers on church things.

One other thing I realized - loss of faith of one partner from a temple marriage is much more complicated than a member / non-member marriage right from the start. The expectations are completely different. When my wife came to realize that I would no longer be wearing g's and would not be participating in church, her whole eternal life expectation shattered to the floor, and it was ME who put it in that position. In her opinion, I was backing out on it all, and as long as she stayed married to me, she would be a second-class wife in the church, and would we would not have our family together in the CK.

Like you, I still loved and wanted that marriage. To me the marriage and the church were separate. To her, they were inextricably intertwined. I did go slow and never tried to change her beliefs. I only wanted validation as a good husband and father. Perfectionist mormons have a very difficult time getting there, IMHO.

I think you should really attempt to find a communication style where you both can not only be heard, but both can listen. I'm sensing from your posts that its going to take a lot of work to find that balance. An outside unbiased counselor may be of help. But I have this fear that your letter will backfire on you, just as my letters did. Good luck to you!!

If you kept the porn stuff, I would preface it with a paragraph of how healthy and beautiful human sexuality is, and how unhealthy it is to deprive it. Maybe cite some studies? I would say that is the hardest verneer to break through with Mormon women.. that sex and being horny is icky. It's the opposite, and, as Dan Savage would say, it's a form of abuse to withdraw it from your spouse. Especially after leading them on before marraige.