"In their recently published book, "Encyclopedia of Wars," authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone."



Here is info on the book quoted -- it is considered definitive at this time:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9781444338232

A few other thoughts -- no creditable or for that matter discreditable historians believe WWII was "caused" in any way by Hitler's ersatz Christianity. None. As in "not one." Even that he picked the Jews as his scapegoats was psychologically complex and had to do with -- among other things -- the possibility he believed he might be Jewish. I would like to point out that if say contemporary USA went similarly mad we would pick African Americans or Latino immigrants as our scapegoat -- and it is rather difficult to pin that on "religion." It suggests to me at least the possibility that more complicated forces were at work in the Third Reich.

People who believe religion is the cause of all evil seem to me to still be working well within the paradigm of more impoverished religious thought. They believe in a devil -- and He is Religion. Personally, I don't live in a demon-haunted world so I see religion as human -- complex with a complicated impact, not only good and bad, but whether it is good or bad depends of course on the person judging.

It is so interesting to tune into these little discussions -- not so much for what is mentioned as what is not. The greatest threat to the human species at the moment is -- global warming. Rather hard to blame religions for that. And of course not all posters here are ready to admit it is happening. But what keeps them in denial? Well, whatever it is, I dare say it would be hard to make a case that it is RELIGION.

So here religions becomes the irrational scapegoat, as the Jews were to Nazi Germany.

Then,in the case of Nazi Germany, there was WWI and the completely unfair Versailles Treaty which forced Germany to take full blame for the war which they didnt start and to pay horrendous reparations which left them in financial ruin. They were ripe for someone like Hitler to come along and to offer them hope,pride and a convenient scapegoat.

Ok.

Not sure who you are aiming at, which makes your post itself a bit, well, irrational.

Anyways, I rather like Hobbes' three reasons people go to war:

1. To conquer resources (agression)
2. To prevent others from conquering your resources (preemption)
3. To make clear that you don't take shit from no one (deterrence)

You will find that the no. 1-type wars tend to be the deadliest.

I think it is in reference to a closed thread, 'Organized Religion is the Root of All Evil'. Not irrational at all. Check out the original.It should be on the first or possibly second page.

This post is silly. It is like saying that only the top reason counts when it comes to the starting of wars. Reasons for wars are complex and have many factors. The fact alone that religion has a role or plays a part in almost every war is indesputable. To state that religion didn't play a role in Hitler's Nazi Germany is absolutely ridiculous. The fact alone that Hitler targeted the Jews and the mass extermination of the Jews is enough to say that Hitler's war was religion based. Your attempt to justify his actions as not being religion driven is sickening and disrectful to every Jew that lost their life and the family's that have forever been impacted by this horrendous event.

You state that you tune into these threads and you are amused not so much by what is talked about, but what isn't. Well pin a rose on your nose. I'm sure that the many posters on this board simply............. don't care that you are amused.

The greatest threat to the human race is global warming? Okay chicken little, thank you for amusing us all. Now if you wouldn't mind leaving this board and amusing yourself on the following board I am confident we would all appreciate it!

http://www.wireclub.com/topics/passions,global_warming



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2014 07:24PM by dodgeawrench.

NO, it isnt indisputable. Try reading some history. Even the so called religious wars have political causes and no one denied war is complex.

To separate the two is irrational. Study some history. The Vatican, it's own country, divine rights of kings, The state of Utah, etc., etc..

"Separation of Church and State" would hardly be neccissary if religion was already separated from politics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2014 07:41PM by MJ.

The so-called political wars can gain people willing to die for a cause because they are brainwashed into believing if they fight for King, emperor or whatever who claims to be appointed by God, they will gain a great reward in the afterlife.

If people aren't brainwashed into believing they are the chosen people or their leader is select of God, they won't be so willing to fight.

(but then, by your name you don't appear to be from the U.S.)

Was it a war of the godless communist atheistic North against the French-Catholic colonized South, with the Christian Americans stepping in to help? Make yer case...

There are lots of reasons for disease. That doesn't mean we should ignore some of the contributing factors and only look for the ONE biggest cause.

Religion is a contributing factor for contention leading to wars and justification for wars. It is the tool often used to validate and motivate people to dehumanize people who are not the right religion or culture. Once a group of people are dehumanized and marginalized, it becomes easier to mistreat them.

Religion is one of the best mechanisms for establishing us vs. them mindsets. They use words like infidel, jihad, chosen, persecuted or saved. This is the kind of language and teaching that prepares people to follow along in war.

Religion is only ONE factor, but it is a factor that could be addressed. There would be other isms and reasons for humans to fight for resources because that is what humans do.

A big obstacle in dealing with global warming also can be rooted in religion. Some religions believe God wants them to multiply and replenish the Earth when clearly population control is a factor that contributes to global warming. Also, some religions teach that man has dominion over the Earth and God will come at the right time and save his pet believers. Some religions are obstacles for scientific teaching about global warming.

Religion has not exactly been in the forefront of environmental concerns. They might jump on the bandwagon eventually, but religion was a definite factor for people not accepting the facts about the Earth petri dish we live in. There's plenty of blame to go around for global warming, and religion's role is a factor.

Yep, religion is a problem with global warming, especially when nature worship clouds human empathy, or when the belief that CO2 is evil outweigh the facts.

Can I pump some of that co2 in your bedroom window every night? :)

There is the environmental stewardship program supported by moderate and progressive Catholics, Protestants, and evangelicals, who see the preservation of the ecology and endangered animals as a modern interpretation of Noah's Ark. Believe it or not, there is even the Mormon Environmental Stewardship Alliance:
http://www.mesastewardship.org/about-mesa/

I think far more wars are fought in the name of religion rather than for religion.

Religion is the easiest method for the true power brokers to get people to do what they want.

bona dea is right. I just started this thread because the one where this topic first came up was closed.

I had never heard Hobbs' theory of war, but I love it. Amen. I'm going to save that for future use.

Sometimes I want to tell post-Mormon posters, as much as I sometimes want to tell Mormons, google is your friend!

This is the Wiki on Hitler's religious beliefs. Stomping around saying I'm insulting the Jews -- is just insulting the Jews -- who realize the complexity of their position as outsiders in Europe. How outsiders are created is complex -- and not dealing with the complexity seems to me to where the insult lies.

"Adolf Hitler was raised by an anti-clerical, skeptic father and a devout Catholic mother. Baptized as an infant, confirmed at the age of fifteen, he ceased attending Mass and participating in the sacraments in later life.[1] In adulthood, he became disdainful of Christianity but in power was prepared to delay clashes with the churches out of political considerations.[2] Hitler's architect Albert Speer believed he had "no real attachment" to Catholicism, but that he had never formally left the Church. Unlike his comrade Joseph Goebbels, Hitler was not excommunicated[3] prior to his suicide. The biographer John Toland noted Hitler's anticlericalism, but considered him still in "good standing" with the Church by 1941, while historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian - a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler's Table Talk.[4] Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."[5] Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler's long term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany,[6] while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.[7]

"Hitler's public relationship to religion has been characterised as one of opportunistic pragmatism.[8] His regime did not publicly advocate for state atheism, but it did seek to reduce the influence of Christianity on society..."

Yet I don't blame atheism or anti-Christian attitudes or anti-clerical attitudes for the Third Reich nor the Holocaust. As I said, complexity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

And google is your friend! You can use to go to the National Academy of Science to find --
http://nas-sites.org/americasclimatechoices/

Not of course that scientists would know anything about anything. (e_e) The only problem with that argument is that if scientists know nuffink, nuffink I tell you, how do you argue BoM is not true?

janeeliot - I respect your opinion on this topic and have no desire to change it. Passion about things is certainly valuable when channeled properly. I don't want you to think the way I do, in fact this is the beauty of individualism. Call it religion, call it the tribe, call it the group, they are all the same. Your desire to defend your position at all costs and debate your own opinion is certainly your prerogative. However, the assumption that post mormon and mormon posters haven't done their research and or are not intelligent about a topic is obvious self-centeredness.

Anybody can play the silly google game. These days almost all humans and even some of their pets have a smart phone that in turn makes the person think they are an expert on the subject. Google search does not = expert. Here is one for you, spend some time on this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

"Egocentrism is characterized by preoccupation with one's own internal world. Egocentrics regard themselves and their own opinions or interests as being the most important or valid. To them, self-relevant information is seen to be more important in shaping one’s judgments than are thoughts about others and other-relevant information.[1] Egocentric people are unable to fully understand or to cope with other people's opinions and the fact that reality can be different from what they are ready to accept. Egocentrism is not the same as narcissism."

Greed is the cause.

Religion, be it by itself or masquerading as whatever else is STILL and will forever be, the root of all evil....I beleive it in my soul and will not be persuaded otherwise. I have studied the history or most all wars and religion plays a part in all of them if you scratch deep enough.

Ron Burr

Mormons believe the church is true with all their souls, but that doesn't make it true.Don't let pesky facts interfere with your beliefs though

Yep. We should avoid claiming that something is true because we believe it really hard.

Bona and SNB,

Lethbridge said he's studied war. I'm assuming he wasn't sitting under a tree examining his feelings about war. I think he's been reading.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2014 10:57PM by thingsithink.

I have studied it too and beg to differ. Some wars are related to religion and more aren't.Regardless,some proof would be nice.Janeeliot made her case,now let's see Lethbridge do the same.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2014 11:11PM by bona dea.

I doubt I could write anything that would dissuade you from your stance, bona dea...and I'm not going to change mine.

Ron Burr

Amen and amen!

I don't remember where I heard this quote, so I am paraphrasing;

If George W Bush was not so sure of an afterlife, would he be as willing to send our young men and women there?

Well, Stalin, Lenin and Pol Pot sent a lot more people to death and they didnt believe in an afterlife. Many leaders are pretty willing to risk other peoples' lives and always have been regardless of religion.

The difference? And there is a difference if one actually knows their history.

GB send ALLIES, people he would not want to die.

your list? Sent ENEMIES that they would want to die.

Understanding history is a wonderful thing.

Global warming. Which group fights against the idea that global warming is real? How does it relate to their belief system? I'm not sure about that. But damn, the religious freaks have a serious problem with the idea.

And some religious people support themidea ofglobal warning.Right wingers who watch Faux News are the ones with a problem. Many of them are Fundies but not all.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And some religious people support themidea
> ofglobal warning.Right wingers who watch Faux News
> are the ones with a problem. Many of them are
> Fundies but not all.

Religion at its core will play to man's innate tendencies toward evil and altruism. Like any other emotional trigger, it can motivate us toward good or evil. But the blame lies with the individual or group who does the thing. You cannot lay blame or praise at the feet of an external source for very long. It is more like a catalyst.

The problem with global warming is that there are folks with religious zeal on both sides of the argument. Sadly, those who support it are the ones seem most willing to lie to support their position. Lots of money at stake if it's true.

Global warming may well be true, but you need to sift through a lot of BS and lies to figure out what may be the actual truth.

And I don't believe the Aussies are getting direct broadcasts of Fox News US, are they?

http://joannenova.com.au/2013/07/thats-a-0-3-consensus-not-97/
http://joannenova.com.au/2014/05/john-cooks-consensus-data-is-so-good-hell-sue-you-if-you-discuss-it/

Also the UK press reported how NASA went back and changed historic temperature data to reflect an gradual increase in temperature readings where it had previously shown a decrease since the 1930's. They're another Fox News outlet?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/10916086/The-scandal-of-fiddled-global-warming-data.html

None of this disproves global warming. But it's sort of like Mormonism: if you find those in charge of the information lying about it, you'd be wise to step back and question things. And if they reject the scrutiny by attacking you personally, maybe there's a lot wrong with their position.

Do you remember when relatively unknown blogger named Matt Drudge was pilloried as the world's most ignorant, and unreliable news source when he tried to peddle a little story about an intern who dropped to her knees for her president? It took quite a while before other news outlets ran with that story.

I wonder if are you just taking the easy road in dismissing Fox News, "Fundies" and "right wingers" as unreliable (like a Mormon would toward us) without any real evidence to prove your position.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2014 01:11AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

I used Fox and their constituency as an example of those who deny Global Warming.They are not the only ones of course.Fox has been caught in plenty of lies and scientists seem to be pretty convinced of Global Warming. I see no reason to change my mind on either subject.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used Fox and their constituency as an example of
> those who deny Global Warming.They are not the
> only ones of course.Fox has been caught in plenty
> of lies and scientists seem to be pretty convinced
> of Global Warming. I see no reason to change my
> mind on either subject.


I realize we're veering off topic here, but your response reminds of that I heard from my relatives for years regarding my position on Mormonism.

"Caught in plenty of lies" with the inability to name a single one was a common accusation I faced. Only now do church essays say the same as I do. Do you recall a single lie of Fox's, or do you just believe it to be true because it's "common knowledge?"

"Scientists seem pretty convinced" is common too. Archaeology has proven the Book of Mormon true, right?

I suspect you didn't read the article by the Aussies above. John Cook is one of the primary proponents of "97% of all scientists say global warming is man made." But a student decided to access his data and crunch the numbers. He found the actual number of scientists who cite that is less than .5%. Cook manipulated the data shamelessly. If you found that less than 1% of scientists found global warming as anything human related, would you still feel as you do?

Couple this with NASA's wholesale altering of historic data, and the "15 year pause" in warming that seems to be the consensus, and it's not so settled.

Also factor in the ongoing falsification of data, and there's real reason to question the veracity of the claims.

Remember "Climatgate" from 2009? A series of emails was uncovered between climate scientists in which they were found altering data and deleting evidence that ran contrary to their conclusions. Sort of like how Mormons often deal with prickly episodes of history. Not widely reported in the US, but again, the UK press picked it up:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html

As a Mormon, did you often attack critics of the church as liars and ignorant? See any parallels?

NO, I didnt attack anti church people and I stand by my remarks on Fox and Global Warming. We will have to disagree on that.

Wars are fought over resources and land. Religions are used to justify man's inhumanity to man, though greed and jealousy trump faith in gods of all kinds.

The Holocaust was most certainly the result of religion, i.e. Christian hatred of the Jews, whom they saw as Christ killers.

Before some sneering antisemite says I "should study history", read this:

'Without centuries of Christian antisemitism, the passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed...because for centuries Christians have held Jews collectively responsible for the death of Jesus. On Good Friday Jews, have in times past, cowered behind locked doors with fear of a Christian mob seeking 'revenge' for deicide. Without the action of Christian minds through the centuries, the Holocaust is unthinkable.' Archbishop Robert Runcie

BTW, a good deal of religion IS politics. Read the Bible, it is comprised of endless lists of rules, commandments and exhortations to obey the law of the land.

There was no separation of church and state in Europe until recent times, as indeed there is STILL none in Muslims countries.

The media is partly to blame imo. Anytime a muslim country is involved in a war they emphasize over, and over, and over again the fact that they're muslims. It gets so tiring. These people are muslims, but the reason they're killing people is because they're crazy, selfish, power-hungy and generally horrible people. Normal muslims don't participate in that kind of behavior.

Most of the general public don't do the research. They just know what they get told by the media, so I can't blame them for thinking religion is the cause for everything bad in the world, since that sure is the picture the media paints.

That's not true at all. They are usually referred to in the media as extremists and terrorists - NOT as Muslims.

I also find that a great deal of the media are pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel - probably because they dislike Jews more than they dislike Muslims.

Let us not forget Augustine and his putrid "Just War" essays. A holy war is the worst kind of war. Regardless of how often it happens.

I agree with this statement.

Money and power are a religion unto themselves.

Whenever I read a post by the OP, it makes me think of a long-ago-poster who was uhm, er, passionate about her religious opinions. If memory serves, her name was "beaglie," but it's been so long since she posted (at least under that board name) that my memory may have retrieved the wrong name.

There are many cases when wars are not caused by religion.

But, speaking for Christianity, where the hell are the priests and pastors and, for that matter, MORMON prophets, apostles, etc. to OPPOSE them?

War is profitable for those that deal in weapons. It is a gold mine for those that deal in eternal certitudes.

Jane - Your post is SPOT ON.

"Atrocitology", for what it's worth, estimates that at most only 10% of wars are caused in some way by religion.

Wars may seem to start for many reasons but the simple truth is that they start for one basic & very human reason, ‘I want what you have’ It really is that simple, why go looking for complicated reasons when a quick glance at humans in general will reveal the obvious.
Most, including the posters in here, are reasonable people who probably enjoy a good argument but would never dream of forcibly imposing their will on others, but what about the not so small minority of humans who would? Religion cangive them a convenient excuse to impose their will & for those with no beliefs the lust for power is enough as has been proved over & over throughout recorded history.

If religion is the cause of ALL wars then it seems logical to assume that ALL thieves, murderers and violent people generally would be religious, What’s the difference between genocide in Rwanda & murder in Chicago apart from the scale of the crime?

We would do well to remember the old adage

“Power tends to corrupt, absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men”

When the truth of that is recognised we won’t need to look any further for the cause of wars. The cause is corrupt humanity.

Yep, Hitler believed in the literal gathering of Israel and worked to bring it about.

Every religion that preach that God create flawed people are irrational and contradictory. Why obey and worship a God who lack power and perfection? Theism implies a God on a piedestal and people under him/her. How can God create alienation from himself?

How do you know Man-made global warming is a valid theory?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2014 12:28PM by volrammos.