I left the church 16 years ago and have had virtually no contact with other people that have left the church. Last month, I stumbled across the Mormon Stories podcast have become obsessed with all of the stories of people leaving the church. I've noticed something though that I can't quite figure out, however. It seems like there is two classes of apostates...the honorable intellectual apostates and those that aren't. The honorable intellectual apostates seem to be those that went on missions, married in the temple, served in callings, then later in life the shelf became too full and came crashing down. Then there seems to be reference to some other un-enlightened group that left the church. I heard a story today where the guy was talking about getting hooked on peoples stories, being impressed by intelligent, faithful people that left the church, "not people that were just jack-Mormons". It's not the first time I've picked up on those types of attitudes. Has anyone else noticed this fascinating social phenomenon. It feels like something that is very Mormon by nature.

Yes, I think for some that does exist. I find it condescending. The point is, we're all out. Do we really need to form a pecking order?

No, we don't need a pecking order, but some posters desperately want one. Some want to sort by knowledge, others by degree of victimization, others by time on this board.

Meh, I'd say it's human by nature.

I don't see it that way at all. There are some who went through a tremendous struggle and great sacrifice to leave. I have respect for that, and those stories can be heart-wrenching. There are others who found leaving easy and convenient; simply not going to a church because you never liked it anyway just isn't as inspiring.

I don't think people in the second category are somehow less important than the first, but they're stories just aren't as meaningful. It doesn't mean there is a hierarchy.

Jack-Mormons don't really belong to the exmo community. Jack-mormons are believing mormons that aren't active for one reason or another. The term is often used to refer to those that drink and don't follow other mormon "laws". Others have told stories here of their jack-mormon spouses that defend the church, even though they NEVER attend.

Any differentiation you're reading is probably separating those that studied their way out from those that are simply inactive.

Anybody who is recovering from Mormonism should be welcome in this community.

On a larger level, anybody who is interested in Mormonism at any level should be a part of this community as well.

You may have a different defintion of "jack-mormon", but this term is typically used to refer to believing, inactive members. They defend the church and would avoid RfM like the plague like any TBM. When TBM's think of people leaving the church, they ONLY think of jack-mormons...they think everyone will come back one day...everyone still believes, they're just lazy, want to sin, etc...

You can see here that the term is used in many different ways:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Mormon

Susan Easton Black said (who knows if she's right) that the term was first widely used to describe those that left the church when the WoW became a commandment. It was used to describe those that spent Sundays at the bar. I believe she said her father was one of them.

It doesn't matter whether you think that they shouldn't be here, or even if they sympathize with Mormonism (as the Wikipedia article asserts). This is a place for people who come and recover from Mormonism. It is also a place where people come to discuss Mormonism.

Jack-Mos need to recover from Mormonism. This is the perfect place for them. In fact, many regular posters started here as Jack-Mos.

...and no, you aren't using a better definition than I am. We are both talking about the exact same thing.

When I was growing up,Jack Mormon referred to inactives. Some probably believed and some probably didn't.I counted they are all the same

"Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on."

-- Kris Kristofferson

I've seen both sides:

1) You didn't research absolutely EVERYTHING before making such an IMPORTANT decision? What's WRONG with you?

2) You didn't see through that crap when it was so OBVIOUS? What's WRONG with you?

Nevertheless, we all have something in common: We each find this information and exchange worth a certain percentage of our time. I left the church 40 years ago, as a young woman. I researched, I read. I asked questions, and no one in the church could help me. I just couldn't make it make sense, even after having grown up in it. And I knew as a young woman that this community did not value me, my intelligence, my talents. I explained it to my parents as clearly as I could, and I shook the Mormon dust from my shoes.

Now, at age 60, having found this group, I feel happy and relieved! And at first I wasn't sure why. I feel vindicated in some ways. I feel lucky here and there -- that I was able to step away before I made some Big Life Mistakes. I feel enormous empathy for those who have lost family, friends, and livelihood over their decision.

I wish everyone well, whether you're 5th generation Mormon or a convert. Mazel Tov.

Yeah, there's a decent sized portion of exmos who left very shortly after reaching their majority.
In some ways it is both better and worse to be in this slice of the pie, and I'm speaking of my experiences here personally.

For instance, someone suggested in all seriousness that the best way to keep trolls out is to make each newly registered member say their temple name.
Well I never got endowed!

Yet I am also very glad I didn't wind up with a TBM spouse and or kids before seeing the light.

And then some "real" exmos(temple endowed, obv) have in all seriousness asked what I could possibly have to recover from since I didn't go through the penultimate culty part of mormonism? And without being married to a TBM nor having TBM kids, what kind of baggage could I possibly be carrying from my "brief" time in the cult?

I spent my formative years in a CULT, all my extended family is in a CULT, and the majority of them are "higher law" mormons, one compound shy of being fundies.
I ENVY those who were raised by liberal, jack, or cafeteria style mormons. I really do. It is also probably why it took a little longer for them to see the light, those with more "normal" parents, but from the complete obliviousness toward the effects of uberTBM parenting it was also obviously a much less abusive childhood.
I am here to recover from my mormonism-centered abusive childhood. I have read enough stories to know that my situation was not entirely unique and a lot of people relate to this or that from my experiences but rarely the entire gamut...
Yet it is clearly not the most common thing to get out as soon as I did. And I bet some here envy how early I saw the light.

I wish there wasn't so much of this ranking and comparing, but that is just humans being human.

Getting out earlier in one's life doesn't negate what can be life-long effects from those formative years.

Staying in for X amount of years after reaching the age of majority can also leave one feeling that they have lost so much time. Finite.

But we will never be children again. That time is lost to us as well.

There is no hierarchy of pain, and that's one of the reasons I become beyond pissed off when someone's feelings are minimized.

One day there was a one-line post where a woman screamed, "I HATE MY MOTHER!" Fair enough. The overwhelming responses weren't about *her* pain, but people started saying how happy they'd would be if their mothers were still alive.

Nice kick in the teeth to the woman in pain.

WinksWinks & Beth, I hear ya!

Personally, I don't think anyone gets out of Mormonism or any cult for that matter, without some serious scars.

The point is to support and not negate other people and their experiences, simply because they don't follow an assigned script. There isn't "one true and legitimate way to leave Mormonism". Also there aren't "more valiant" ex-Mormons. We're just people.

Re: The woman who hates her mother. People who have/had great mothers find it impossible to believe that any mother could be truly awful. It's a byproduct of long held stereotypes regarding women and motherhood. The truth is, some mothers are horrible and probably never should have had children. I feel terrible that that woman wasn't supported. If she's reading this, I want her to know I empathise. My mother sucks too, and if I lived anywhere near her I'd take her out for a coffee and just let her vent. (Edit: by "her" I don't mean my mother. I would not take her out for coffee, since it'd be more fun for me to stick a fork in my eye. Seriously, she's a scary lady.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 05:37AM by sassypants.

The Mormon church is a community.

Exmos are individuals who go their own ways and some of them talk on RfM or happen to know a few others.

Community? I don't think so.

There are cliques here, but then there are cliques everywhere. Avoid those you don't like just like you do.in real life.

For the first time in the history of mormonism there's a place to ask questions and feel safe.

Before the internet there was no place to go. You aren't allowed to criticize leaders, even if they're wrong! You fear asking the wrong question. You don't know where to go, or where to find any answers. You couldn't even ask your best friend. There was the fear that word would get out.

Then came the internet an anonymity. People like Eric and Susan opened the lines of communication. Information came flooding out. You could ask ANY question. Your identity was safe. The church couldn't stop or control it. They didn't see this one coming. So much for prophecy.

I'm glad I lived long enough to learn what I did. My husband and kids left with me. If it wasn't for the internet we might be in a way worse situation. Mormonism could have easily broken my family. We got out before it did.

I hope there are thousands more that will be lucky enough to learn what we did, and know what we know. I hope they break the back of mormonism.

When it comes to class, I play hooky.

Interesting. I know some of us post more thoroughly researched and presented material here, based on our education and/or writing ability but the only condescension has been from the gutless trolls who show up and insult us before admin runs their a$$es off.

Ron Burr

Jack Mormons aren't former Mormons, they are still Mormon.

Some of the fiercest, albeit ignorantly so, defenders of Mormonism are Jack Mormons. They often are the ones that will say they are just too weak or too alienated to participate actively and with the devotion of a TBM. They still believe though, they believe they are sinning by drinking coffee, tea, and alcohol. They believe they should pay a tithe to Mormons, and they are known to spruce up a bit in order to participate in a blessing of a child or two.

"Jack Mormons aren't former Mormons, they are still Mormon."

The problem here is that you don't get to decide for other people about whether they are Mormon or not. You can try, but ultimately every single person gets to keep that power. When a jackmo says "I am Mormon," then you get to define them as Mormon. If they do not claim that, then you can't rationally make that choice for them.

If they say they are Jack Mormon then they are Mormon. If they say they don't believe that crap any more then they are a former Mormon.

If someone is drinking a beer or a coffee and calls themselves a sinner, that means they believe it is a sin.

Okay?!?

I consider polygamists Mormon too. Even if they don't, because they believe in the Book of Mormon and the fundamental Mormon teachings. The other stuff is just stuff. Buckets do get created and then we stick labels on them.

Okay?!?

We are all special though. SNB. Especially you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 02:12AM by gentlestrength.

People who "self-identify" as jackmormons predominantly believe the mormon church to be true, and its leaders to be spokesmen for jesus.

People who "self-identify" as exmormons, or formermormons, or recoveringmormons predominantly believe the mormon church to be a bag full of horse cookies, and its leaders to be charlatans and rubes.

At least this has been my anecdotal experience - to date.

Words have meaning (in context), and by and large, jackmormon means inactive but believing.

And being huffy doesn't change definitions of said words.

schlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People who "self-identify" as jackmormons
> predominantly believe the mormon church to be
> true, and its leaders to be spokesmen for jesus.
>
> People who "self-identify" as exmormons, or
> formermormons, or recoveringmormons predominantly
> believe the mormon church to be a bag full of
> horse cookies, and its leaders to be charlatans
> and rubes.
>
> At least this has been my anecdotal experience -
> to date.
>
> Words have meaning (in context), and by and large,
> jackmormon means inactive but believing.
>
> And being huffy doesn't change definitions of said
> words.

OMG schlock, I have not heard "being huffy" since the '70s! Flashback!

And grandma used to bark this one at us as children: "No piecing before dinner!"

Where in the sam hill did that one come from?

http://www.yourdictionary.com/piecing
intransitive verb
Informal, Dialectal - to eat a snack between meals

I have know jack mos who were believers and those who were not. They are not all the same and it is silly to think they are. As snb said,they get to define themselves

I take issue with the implication that in order to be an honorable intellectual apostate, you have to go on a mission and get married in the temple and such. I myself got out of the church before I went on a mission because of things like the Problem of Evil, the Argument from Inconsistent Revelations, and the weird sci-fi paradoxes and imponderables surrounding the foreknowledge of God and predestination at the same time free will exists.

I did not leave to sin. I left because the church doctrines did not make any sense to me anymore.

Sounds honorable to me.

I'd like to give a perspective from someone brought up in a different culture, where mormonism was NOT the norm.

I lost my sense of 'belonging' throughout my childhood, as I was in the cult and lived in the real world at the same time. School was Church of England and we learned of other denominations and doctrines. Throughout the 60s keeping 'sweet' was a tough call given the social pressures at the time. I never 'belonged' but felt like an observer, despite my chosen path of journalism. I would never admit to my peers where I worshipped but thankfully in our society such things are not discussed. The Word of Wisdom was thought to be a health thing.

We didn't deal with any BYU or honour code stuff so were self-monitoring. Questions from PH were general and non-invasive, though things may be different today.

There was not one suitable candidate for marriage within the church but plenty outside, therefore I married a non-mormon, bringing greater confusion of standards and morality. We had a civil marriage to accommodate all the family.

My husband was quite liberal concerning the mormon thing, seeing it as just another Christian denomination. Perhaps had we lived in Utah there would have been greater resistance, but despite his liberal views he couldn't be persuaded to join.

So, we were a part-member family, with mother continuing her stalwart dedication to the profit, though in later years, as the church became more US centric and paranoid, her attitude softened somewhat and she herself embraced her extended family with her own natural love and compassion, a trait that mormonism was never strong enough to expunge.

We really only witnessed the ugly underbelly of the church when she became ill. There was tremendous shock amongst the 'gentile' family members and those that were still mormon could barely cope with the inner discomfort caused by the church's dealings with the situation.

For us, that was the death knell. The lost years/childhood and sense of belonging will never be recovered but thankfully, due to the demographics of our environment, recovery was relatively easy and we are able to fully embrace the things that we love.

Just my two penceworth.

Briggy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 04:38AM by brigantia.