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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 05:25PM

The hits (and the fits), they just keep on a-comin.' :)

In a now-closed thread, RfM poster "White Cliffs" said the following on the spiritualistic proof (supposedly) of NDEs/OBEs:

"I bought a book at the airport, 'Proof of Heaven,' by Eben Alexander. He claims his cortex was not functioning during his NDE, which proves it wasn't caused by the shutdown process. Great book, but he may be remembering a lot of things from a very short shutdown process."

("Re: Science Time: NDEs/OBEs are a Demonstrable Intra-Cranial Reality," posted by "White Cliffs," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 25 August 2014, at:
Date: August 25, 2014, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1362554,1363284#msg-1363284)


Ah, yes, the alleged and much-ballyhooed-among-the-believers "near-death experience" of Dr. Eben Alexander III, a formerly comatose patient who is also a neurosurgeon and associate professor at the Harvard Medical School--and who came out of a bad seven-day-blackout bout with meningitis claiming that during that time-out he had met God in a vision. (Note: Betty Eadie of Mormon-member fame, in her book, "Embraced by the Light," similarly claims to have been hugged by Jesus after she died and gone to heaven but who then was returned safely to Earth in order to re-enter her magically-recesitated corpse and make millions off the book; see: "Embraced by the Voodoo and Hugged by the Savior: The Unsteady Betty Eadie," by Steve Benson, "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 19 August 2014, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1356992,1356992#msg-1356992)


This, no doubt, is all meat for the metaphysical-feat crowd, but not all professional neurologists are impressed with Alexander's personal testimonial:

"Like much of the scientific community [ya think?], Dr. Wendy Wright, a neurologist from Emory University, believes that near-death experiences are purely a function of endorphin release in the brain. 'So when these chemicals are released, these different type of phenomena can occur: a person might see a light, or experience a sense of peace or calming. Feel that they're surrounded by loved ones." Such visions, although potentially comforting to the individual, are little more than tricks of the brain,' she says."

("Four Theories On What Happens When We Die," in "The Huffington Post," under "Nothing 'Fantastic' Happens," p. 4, 23 June 2011, at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/23/what-happen-when-we-die_n_882738.html#s296717&title=There_Is_An)


Others are similarly skeptical, like long-time RFM poster "Nightingale," a registered nurse by profession, who questions Alexander's basic conclusion:

"My biggest question is not whether these events [NDEs] occur, as certainly I believe that people do experience them (or strongly believe or perceive that they have) but how we go from acknowledging that a certain event happened to concluding that it is proof of life after death. I think that is a leap. There needs to be some grounds to uphold such a conclusion or else it remains suspect to me.

"Eben Alexander III, for instance, has the following statement on his web site:

“'Due to his lifetime spent studying neuroscience, Dr. Alexander’s miraculous near-death experience provides dramatic proof of the reality of life beyond death.'

"I do not see how Dr. Alexander’s NDE is 'proof' of life after death. I don’t see how his profession alone gives his NDE any more credibility than anyone else’s. As with all the others, I don’t question that he experienced *something*, but as I’ve previously discussed, I do question his perceptions, due to his medical condition, and I certainly don’t accept as a given that his or anyone else’s NDE is automatically proof of life after death. Even though a neuroscientist says it, I still see gaps in the logic. The mere occurrence of an NDE does not prove there is life after death. How does that attribution arise? It must come, I believe, from a person’s preconceptions. If you already believe in life after death, an NDE may convince you that your opinion is correct. If you don’t believe in it, would an NDE change your mind? I am not convinced that it would.

"Dr. Alexander’s site: "Consciousness is the Most Profound Mystery in the Universe," http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/

("Re: Questions Abound . . . ," posted by "Nightingale," on "Recovery from Mormonism" discussion board, 1 August 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,261165,261317#msg-261317)
_____


Next. :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2014 05:29PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 06:41PM

but....what would be a meaning of life from the standpoint view of science/scientists/materialism side???

its much fun to me than science_tries_disproving, like one story of nihon ryoiki saying one day in spirit world is equivalent to one year here on the earth,

nihon-ryoiki....http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.jp/2010/04/from-nihon-ryoiki-of-monk-kyokai-oral.html

or saying of js like "if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there,...."

probably steve san is a bit extreme, scientifically minded too much??

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 03:29AM

It discovers evidence about life.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2014 03:33AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 06:48PM

but only know about half of the subject matter; but wanted to show my appreciation to Steve for providing links and commentary on something I'll have to read up on. Thanks again.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 06:49PM

In the methodological process of their peer-reviewed expertise, if your pet theological theory happens to gets empirically flattened by seasoned and reasoned scientists, try not to take it personally. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, learn to live with it and, most of all, try to learn from it.

After all, you'd never get such beneficial treatment or educational enlightenment from the mythologically-marooned, magically-minded, Biblically-believing crowd for whom science is a mind-numbing nuisance. After all, in their special universe, it is a sin to be too scientifically-minded since it can PROVE to be a real inconvenience to their after-world view.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2014 10:06PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 07:08PM

but....science produce value??
science is value-free, correct??

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 25, 2014 08:21PM

Science reduces ignorance of reality. That is also a value.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2014 08:22PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ex_sushi_chef ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 12:21AM

but....seems unless like science, for instance, enables people to go to the moon, mars, venus, jupiter, sun etc, would think science should be very limited.....perceiving power and reality cleared and endeavoured by scientists are also darn-limited perhaps due to the limitation of science....still to the level of being ignorant....

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 03:11AM


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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 04:59AM

I have had some incredible experiences with hallucinogenic drugs in the past, but those experiences prove nothing - except that the human brain is a fascinating thing, capable of creating "reality" in the wildest of circumstances.

The experiences described as NDEs are exactly the same.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 05:02AM


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Posted by: White Cliffs ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 08:07AM

Thanks Steve, it's great to have all this analysis prompted by my little old comment. I buy at least one book every time I travel. I've read through Alexander's book by now, and parts of it several times.

As I wrote earlier, Alexander was quite impressed by the fact that his cortex wasn't functioning while he was "in coma." It could be, though, that the entire experience occurred before that period, or conceivably even after it. Time frequently gets distorted during dreams or visions. Or Alexander could be right, I haven't dismissed that possibility yet.

Alexander also made a great deal of a face that he remembered after his coma, and before writing down his experience. It turned out to be the face of a long-lost birth sister whom he had never met. If all the details are accurate, that could be evidence for some sort of precognition, but not necessarily an afterlife. And he did hedge a bit, saying that if you look at the new photo in just the right way, it looks like the being he met on the butterfly wing...

And there's the point in this thread about the whole thing being evidence not for an afterlife, but for a type of experience that happens to living people. Certainly in Alexander's case there wasn't the sense of finality that we read in some accounts of NDE's. He felt he had to go back to be with his younger son, with no apparent mention of what the alternative might have been.

It's interesting, to say the least. I have a couple of other conceptual criticisms of his book, and I intend to read other reviews and criticisms as well. I also intend to read more about NDE's, at least Raymond Moody's books, which are close at hand. This thread is having a nice boomerang effect.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 26, 2014 11:04PM

Here's his devastating critique, including his assessment of Alexander's creative, long-in-the-works story about "seeing" the face of his long-lost (and now-dead) birth sister whom he had never met:

"The latest NDE to receive wide acclaim was featured on the cover of 'Newsweek' magazine. The great novelty of this case is that its subject, Dr. Eben Alexander, is a neurosurgeon who we might presume is competent to judge the scientific significance of his experience. His book on the subject, 'Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife,' has landed atop the 'New York Times' paperback best-seller list. As it happens, it displaced one of the best-selling books of the past decade, 'Heaven Is for Real'—which is yet another account of the afterlife, based on the near-death adventures of a 4-year-old boy. Unsurprisingly, the two books offer incompatible views of what life is like beyond the prison of the brain. (As colorful as his account is, Alexander neglects to tell us that Jesus rides a rainbow-colored horse or that the souls of dead children must still do homework in heaven.)

"Having now read Alexander’s book, I can say that it is every bit as remarkable as his 'Newsweek' cover article suggested it would be. Unfortunately, it is not remarkable in the way that its author believes. I find that my original criticism of Alexander’s thinking can stand without revision. [1[ However, as he provides further 'proof' of heaven in his book, there is more to say about the man’s mischief here on earth. There is also a rumor circulating online that, after attacking Alexander from the safety of my blog, I have refused to debate him in public. This is untrue. I merely declined the privilege of appearing with him on a parapsychology podcast, in the company of an irritating and unscrupulous host. I would be happy to have a public discussion with Alexander, should it ever seem worth doing.

"As I wrote in my original article, the enthusiastic reception that Alexander is now enjoying suggests a general confusion about the nature of scientific authority. And much of the criticism I’ve received for dismissing his account has predictably focused on what appear to be the man’s impeccable scientific credentials. Certain readers feel that I have moved the goalposts: You see, even the testimony of a Harvard neurosurgeon isn’t good enough for a dogmatic, materialistic, fundamentalist atheist like Harris! And many people found the invidious distinction between a 'neurosurgeon' and a 'neuroscientist' (drawn in a comment by Mark Cohen in my last article) to be somewhat flabbergasting.

"When debating the validity of evidence and arguments, the point is never that one person’s credentials trump another’s. Credentials just offer a rough indication of what a person is likely to know—or should know. If Alexander were drawing reasonable scientific conclusions from his experience, he wouldn’t need to be a neuro-scientist to be taken seriously; he could be a philosopher--or a coal miner. But he simply isn’t thinking like a scientist--and so not even a string of Nobel prizes would shield him from criticism.

"However, there are general differences between neurosurgeons and neuro-scientists that might explain some of Alexander’s errors. The distinction in expertise is very easy to see when viewed from the other side: If the average neuro-scientist were handed a drill and a scalpel and told to operate on a living person’s brain, the result would be horrific. From a scientific point of view, Alexander’s performance has been no prettier. He has surely killed the patient (in fact, he may have helped kill 'Newsweek,' which announced that it would no longer publish a print edition immediately after his article ran), but the man won’t stop drilling. Many of his errors are glaring but immaterial:

"In his book, for instance, he understates the number of neurons in the human brain by a factor of 10. But others are absolutely damning to his case. Whatever his qualifications on paper, Alexander’s evangelizing about his experience in coma is so devoid of intellectual sobriety, not to mention rigor, that I would see no reason to engage with it--apart from the fact that his book seems destined to be read and believed by millions of people.

"There are two paths toward establishing the scientific significance of the NDE: The first would be to show that a person’s brain was dead or otherwise inactive during the time he had an experience (whether veridical or not). The second would be to demonstrate that the subject had acquired knowledge about the world that could be explained only by the mind’s being independent of the brain (but again, it is hard to see how this can be convincingly done in the presence of brain activity).

"In his 'Newsweek' article, Alexander sought to travel the first path. Hence, his entire account hinged on the assertion that his cortex was 'completely shut down' while he was seeing angels in heaven. Unfortunately, the evidence he has offered in support of this claim--in the article, in a subsequent response to my criticism of it, in his book, and in multiple interviews--suggests that he doesn’t understand what would constitute compelling evidence of cortical inactivity. The proof he offers is either fallacious (CT scans do not detect brain activity) or irrelevant (it does not matter, even slightly, that his form of meningitis was “astronomically rare”)--and no combination of fallacy and irrelevancy adds up to sound science. The impediment to taking Alexander’s claims seriously can be simply stated: There is absolutely no reason to believe that his cerebral cortex was inactive at the time he had his experience of the afterlife.

"The fact that Alexander thinks he has demonstrated otherwise--by continually emphasizing how sick he was, the infrequency of E. coli meningitis, and the ugliness of his initial CT scan--suggests a deliberate disregard of the most plausible interpretation of his experience. It is far more likely that some of his cortex was functioning, despite the profundity of his illness, than that he is justified in making the following claim:

"'My experience showed me that the death of the body and the brain are not the end of consciousness, that human experience continues beyond the grave. More important, it continues under the gaze of a God who loves and cares about each one of us, about where the universe itself and all the beings within it are ultimately going.'

"The very fact that Alexander remembers his NDE suggests that the cortical and sub-cortical structures necessary for memory formation were active at the time. How else could he recall the experience?

"It would not surprise me, in fact, if Alexander were to claim that his memories are stored outside his brain—presumably somewhere between Lynchburg, Virginia, and heaven. Given that he is committed to proving the mind’s nonphysical basis, he holds a peculiar view of the brain’s operation:

"'[The brain] is a reducing valve or filter, shifting the larger, nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds down into a more limited capacity for the duration of our mortal lives.'

"There are some obvious problems with this--which anyone disposed to think like a neuro-scientist would see. If the brain merely serves to limit human experience and understanding, one would expect most forms of brain damage to unmask extraordinary scientific, artistic, and spiritual insights—and, provided that a person’s language centers could be spared, the graver the injury the better. A few hammer blows or a well-placed bullet should render a person of even the shallowest intellect a spiritual genius. Is this the world we are living in?[2]

"In his book, Alexander also attempts to take the second path of proof--alleging that his NDE disclosed facts that could be explained only by the reality of life beyond the body. Most of these truths must be left to scientists of some future century to explore—for although his collision with the Mind of God seems to have fully slaked Alexander’s scientific curiosity, it apparently produced few insights that can be rendered in human speech. This puts the man in a difficult position as an educator:

"'I saw the abundance of life throughout countless universes, including some whose intelligence was advanced far beyond that of humanity. I saw that there are countless higher dimensions, but that the only way to know these dimensions is to enter and experience them directly. They cannot be known, or understood, from lower dimensional space. Cause and effect exist in these higher realms, but outside our earthly conception of them. The world of time and space in which we move in this terrestrial realm is tightly and intricately meshed within these higher worlds…. The knowledge given to me was not “taught” in the way that a history lesson or math theorem would be. Insights happened directly, rather than needing to be coaxed and absorbed. Knowledge was stored without memorization, instantly and for good. It didn’t fade, like ordinary information does, and to this day I still possess all of it, much more clearly than I possess the information that I gained over all my years in school.'

"Alexander claims undiminished knowledge of all this, and yet the only specifics he can produce on the page are as vapid as any ever published. And I suspect it is no accident that they have a distinctly Christian flavor. Here, according to Alexander, are the deepest truths he brought back to our world:

"'You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever. You have nothing to fear. There is nothing you can do wrong.'

"Not only will scientists be underwhelmed by these revelations, but Buddhists and students of Advaita Vedanta will find them astonishingly puerile. And the fact that Alexander returned from “the Core” of a loving cosmos only to piously assert the Christian line on evil and free will ('Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible . . .') renders the overall picture of his religious provincialism fairly indelible.
Happily, you do not need to read Alexander’s book to see him present what he considers the most compelling part of his case. You need only spend six minutes of your life in this world watching the following video:

"Watch the video to the end. True, it will bring you six minutes closer to meeting your maker, but it will also teach you something about the limits of intellectual honesty. The footage shows Alexander responding to a question from Raymond Moody (the man who coined the term 'near-death experience'). I am quite sure that I’ve never seen a scientist speak in a manner more suggestive of wishful thinking. If self-deception were an Olympic sport, this is how our most gifted athletes would appear when they were in peak condition.

"It should also be clear that the knowledge of the afterlife that Alexander claims to possess depends upon some extraordinarily dubious methods of verification. While in his coma, he saw a beautiful girl riding beside him on the wing of a butterfly. We learn in his book that he developed his recollection of this experience over a period of months--writing, thinking about it, and mining it for new details. It would be hard to think of a better way to engineer a distortion of memory.

"As you will know from watching the video, Alexander had a biological sister he never met, who died some years before his coma. Seeing her picture for the first time after his recovery, he judged this woman to be the girl who had joined him for the butterfly ride. He sought further confirmation of this by speaking with his biological family, from whom he learned that his dead sister had, indeed, always been 'very loving.' . . .

"As I said in my original response to his 'Newsweek' article, I have spent much of my life studying and even seeking experiences of the kind Alexander describes. I haven’t contracted meningitis, thankfully, nor have I had an NDE, but I have experienced many phenomena that traditionally lead people to believe in the supernatural.

"For instance, I once had an opportunity to study with the great Tibetan lama Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche in Nepal. Before making the trip, I had a dream in which he seemed to give me teachings about the nature of the mind. This dream struck me as interesting for two reasons: (1) The teachings I received were novel, useful, and convergent with what I later understood to be true; and (2) I had never met Khyentse Rinpoche, nor was I aware of having seen a photograph of him. This preceded my access to the Internet by at least five years, so the belief that I had never seen his picture was more plausible than it would be now. I also recall that I had no easy way of finding a picture of him for the sake of comparison. But because I was about to meet the man himself, it seemed that I would be able to confirm whether it had really been him in my dream.

"First, the teachings: The lama in my dream began by asking who I was. I responded by telling him my name. Apparently, this wasn’t the answer he was looking for.

“'Who are you?' he said again. He was now staring fixedly into my eyes and pointing at my face with an outstretched finger. I did not know what to say.“Who are you?” he said again, continuing to point.

“'Who are you?' he said a final time, but here he suddenly shifted his gaze and pointing finger, as though he were now addressing someone just to my left. The effect was quite startling, because I knew (insofar as one can be said to know anything in a dream) that we were alone. The lama was obviously pointing to someone who wasn’t there, and I suddenly noticed what I would later come to consider an important truth about the nature of the mind: Subjectively speaking, there is only consciousness and its contents; there is no inner self who is conscious. The feeling of being the experiencer of your experience, rather than identical to the totality of experience, is an illusion. The lama in my dream seemed to dissect this very feeling of being a self and, for a brief moment, removed it from my mind. I awoke convinced that I had glimpsed something quite profound.

"After traveling to Nepal and encountering the arresting figure of Khyentse Rinpoche instructing hundreds of monks from atop a brocade throne, I was struck by the sense that he really did resemble the man in my dream. Even more apparent, however, was the fact that I couldn’t know whether this impression was accurate. Clearly, it would have been more fun to believe that something magical had occurred and that I had been singled out for some sort of trans-personal initiation--but the allure of this belief suggested only that the bar for proof should be raised rather than lowered. And even though I had no formal scientific training at that point, I knew that human memory is unreliable under conditions of this kind. How much stock could I put in the feeling of familiarity? Was I accurately recalling the face of a man I had met in a dream, or was I engaged in a creative reconstruction of it? If nothing else, the experience of déjà vu proves that one’s sense of having experienced something previously can jump the tracks of genuine recollection. My travels in spiritual circles had also brought me into contact with many people who seemed all too eager to deceive themselves about experiences of this kind, and I did not wish to emulate them. Given these considerations, I did not believe that Khyentse Rinpoche had really appeared in my dream. And I certainly would never have been tempted to use this experience as conclusive proof of the supernatural.⁠

"I invite the reader to compare this attitude to the one that Dr. Eben Alexander will likely exhibit before crowds of credulous people for the rest of his life. The structure of our experiences was similar—we were each given an opportunity to compare a face remembered from a dream/vision with a person (or photo) in the physical world. I realized that the task was hopeless. Alexander believes that he has made the greatest discovery in the history of science.

"1. Everything of substance in Alexander’s account hinges on his assertion that his cortex was shut down while he enjoyed a 'hyper-real' experience of the afterlife. It seems, however, that it is easy for many readers to miss this. For instance, I’ve heard from several people who think that Alexander successfully ruled out the hypothesis that a spike in the neurotransmitter DMT could explain his NDE. But he did so only by observing that DMT would require a functioning cortex upon which to act, whereas his cortex “wasn’t available to be affected.” But no neuro-physiological account of his experience could survive this treatment—because Alexander is asking us to stipulate that his cortex was functionally dead. As I have said, this is an incredible claim, rendered even less plausible by the fact that he does not appear to understand what sort of evidence would make it plausible.

"2. (Added 11/16/12) The phrase 'reducing valve' appears to come from Aldous Huxley in his 'Doors of Perception,' but the idea that the brain is a filter (rather than the origin) of mind goes back at least as far as Henri Bergson and William James. Both Bergson and James suggested that the purpose of the brain might be to limit conscious experience to a range of perceptions and mental states compatible with survival in this world. When the barrier of the brain is breached—whether partially, through mystical experience, or fully, upon the death of the body—a wider range of conscious states and cosmic understandings become available.

"However, as I said above, if the brain were merely a filter, damaging it should reliably increase cognition. Some readers objected to this, suggesting that the brain could be a filter that functions like a radio—a receiver of conscious states, rather than a mere barrier to them. At first glance, this would appear to account for the deleterious effects of neurological injury and disease: If one smashes a radio with a hammer, it no longer functions properly.

"There is problem with this metaphor, however: Those who employ it forget that we are the music, not the radio. If the brain is truly a receiver of conscious states, it should be impossible to diminish a person’s experience of the cosmos by damaging his brain. He may seem unconscious from the outside--like a broken radio—but, subjectively speaking, the music plays on.

"This is not how the mind works. Specific reductions in brain activity might benefit people in certain ways, but there is no reason to think that the pervasive destruction of the cortex can leave the mind unaffected (much less improved). For instance, medications that reduce anxiety generally work by increasing the effect of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, thereby diminishing neuronal activity in various parts of the brain. But the fact that dampening arousal in this way can make people feel better does not suggest that they would feel better still if they were drugged into a coma. Similarly, the psychedelic drug psilocybin seems to reduce activity in brain areas responsible self-representation. It would be unsurprising if this accounted for the experience of self-transcendence that is often associated with this drug. But this does not give us any reason to believe that turning off the brain entirely would yield increased awareness of spiritual realities.

"If Alexander’s account is correct, strategically damaging the brain should be the most reliable method of personal empowerment and spiritual practice available to us. In almost every case, loss of brain should yield more mind. Surely there must be a way of enjoying the benefits of this brain-reduction therapy while maintaining an ability to function in the physical world. He’s the neurosurgeon: I wonder which regions of his brain Alexander would remove first."

("Science on the Brink of Death," by Sam Harris, 11 November 2013, at: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/science-on-the-brink-of-death)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2014 11:11PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: White Cliffs ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 09:31AM

That's a great find, Mr. Benson. I find it fascinating, compelling, enlightening...everything an NDE is supposed to be.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 03:50PM


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Posted by: Robert ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 02:22PM

Everyone knows you're a big shot. Everyone knows you hate Christianity. Given the fact Grandpa was a big shot, you are allowed to attack religion on an organized basis.

The special treatment and exceptions granted you are annoying.

The problem with your lack of spirituality is that being an atheist, you have no moral compass.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 03:01PM

Robert says: "...being an atheist, you have no moral compass."

Oh my.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 04:56PM

You know, the Mormon one, and all its similarly-related crazy cousins.

As to moral compasses, I have no Liahona.

Your compass? Belief in a Sky Daddy? OK--and good luck.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 05:06PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: White Cliffs ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 10:44PM

Sorry, Robert, I may be confused here, but isn't everyone allowed to attack religion?

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 04:36PM

The most important thing Steve quoted is the following:

"When debating the validity of evidence and arguments, the point is never that one person’s credentials trump another’s. Credentials just offer a rough indication of what a person is likely to know—or should know.”

This is a quote Steve, and others, should take to heart. It would be much more helpful, in my view, if the debate could center around real issues, like some of the ones presented here, rather than endless “apologetic” quotes from proposed authorities. In any event, here are some comments:

______________________________________________________________

"As I wrote in my original article, the enthusiastic reception that Alexander is now enjoying suggests a general confusion about the nature of scientific authority. And much of the criticism I’ve received for dismissing his account has predictably focused on what appear to be the man’s impeccable scientific credentials. Certain readers feel that I have moved the goalposts: You see, even the testimony of a Harvard neurosurgeon isn’t good enough for a dogmatic, materialistic, fundamentalist atheist like Harris! And many people found the invidious distinction between a 'neurosurgeon' and a 'neuroscientist' (drawn in a comment by Mark Cohen in my last article) to be somewhat flabbergasting.

COMMENT: I fully agree with Harris here. There is no way that Alexander, as a neurosurgeon, or any other MD for that matter, is necessarily “scientist” by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, Alexander’s book betrays very little of what we would expect from a scientist providing a scientific account of a personal experience.

_______________________________________________________________

"There are two paths toward establishing the scientific significance of the NDE: The first would be to show that a person’s brain was dead or otherwise inactive during the time he had an experience (whether veridical or not). The second would be to demonstrate that the subject had acquired knowledge about the world that could be explained only by the mind’s being independent of the brain (but again, it is hard to see how this can be convincingly done in the presence of brain activity).

COMMENT: NO! The scientific significance of an NDE is established by its mere existence within human experience. It represents data to be explained. Moreover, it represents data that on its face is inconsistent with the scientific materialist paradigm. Moreover, one having an NDE need not show he or she was “brain dead.” The brain has a broad range of functionality, much of which is correlated to subjective experiences. What must be shown, by one side or the other, is that the cognitive functions evident from the NDE experience is consistent with, or inconsistent with, the functional state of the brain when such experiences occurred. As for the second prong of the Harris test, acquiring knowledge as a result of an NDE would be a helpful test. But many examples of NDEs have involved alleged knowledge of circumstances occurring while the patient was either unconscious or comatose. Requiring that such knowledge be such that it “could be explained only by the mind’s being independent of the brain” is classic question-begging. Harris wants the NDE experience to have validity for mind-brain duality only if the NDE experiencer first proves mind-brain duality.

______________________________________________________________

"In his 'Newsweek' article, Alexander sought to travel the first path. Hence, his entire account hinged on the assertion that his cortex was 'completely shut down' while he was seeing angels in heaven. Unfortunately, the evidence he has offered in support of this claim--in the article, in a subsequent response to my criticism of it, in his book, and in multiple interviews--suggests that he doesn’t understand what would constitute compelling evidence of cortical inactivity. The proof he offers is either fallacious (CT scans do not detect brain activity) or irrelevant (it does not matter, even slightly, that his form of meningitis was “astronomically rare”)--and no combination of fallacy and irrelevancy adds up to sound science. The impediment to taking Alexander’s claims seriously can be simply stated: There is absolutely no reason to believe that his cerebral cortex was inactive at the time he had his experience of the afterlife.”

COMMENT: Although I agree that Alexander has not proven that his experience could not have been brain induced, and certainly has not proven that his brain “was completely shut down,” Harris attempts to make too much of this. Alexander’s meningitis most likely did affect his brain function, including the cerebral cortex, which may have been significantly compromised by the disease. Moreover, his experience was very detailed and explicit. So, it is a legitimate question to ask whether the brain under such trauma could have produced such experiences. Unfortunately, we do not know the answer to that question, since we have no imaging data to address the issue. However, Harris is right to challenge Alexander’s assumption that there was NO brain function. That is likely false. Also, regarding CT scans, such “computer tomography” takes snapshots of the brain, thus Harris is technically right in that it does not measure “activity” or function over time. However, it does show the state of the brain, including showing defects or abnormalities. So, Harris’ criticism here is rhetorical and a bit misleading.

______________________________________________________________

"The fact that Alexander thinks he has demonstrated otherwise--by continually emphasizing how sick he was, the infrequency of E. coli meningitis, and the ugliness of his initial CT scan--suggests a deliberate disregard of the most plausible interpretation of his experience. It is far more likely that some of his cortex was functioning, despite the profundity of his illness, than that he is justified in making the following claim:

COMMENT: Whether a materialist explanation is “the most plausible,” whether it “is far more likely that some of his cortex was functioning,” or not, again is to beg the question. We do not know this, unless one presupposes a materialist, neurological explanation. Moreover, the fact that there was “some” of his cortex that was functioning does not show at all that there was enough functionality such as to explain the NDE experience.

_____________________________________________________________

"The very fact that Alexander remembers his NDE suggests that the cortical and sub-cortical structures necessary for memory formation were active at the time. How else could he recall the experience?

COMMENT: Again, this begs the question [Harris’ trademark fallacy] If mind-body dualism is true, as suggested by the NDE experience, then memory formation must occur somehow without the brain. Note also the “sub-cortical structures necessary for memory formation” are perhaps the most poorly understood of all of neuroscience. We simply do not understand how memory is formed or stored, or for that matter how consciousness relates to memory formation. This adds to the intriguing nature of the NDE reports.

_____________________________________________________________

"It would not surprise me, in fact, if Alexander were to claim that his memories are stored outside his brain—presumably somewhere between Lynchburg, Virginia, and heaven. Given that he is committed to proving the mind’s nonphysical basis, he holds a peculiar view of the brain’s operation:

"'[The brain] is a reducing valve or filter, shifting the larger, nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds down into a more limited capacity for the duration of our mortal lives.

COMMENT: I am not impressed with Alexander’s articulation of the filter theory. However, it is a given that if one believes in the soul, there must be some mechanism that allows for its functional properties. The fact that we do not know what that mechanism is, does not necessarily dismiss it as a possibility. After all, we can observe a moving car and conclude a functional mechanism without having any idea as to what that mechanism is.

______________________________________________________________

"There are some obvious problems with this--which anyone disposed to think like a neuro-scientist would see. If the brain merely serves to limit human experience and understanding, one would expect most forms of brain damage to unmask extraordinary scientific, artistic, and spiritual insights—and, provided that a person’s language centers could be spared, the graver the injury the better. A few hammer blows or a well-placed bullet should render a person of even the shallowest intellect a spiritual genius. Is this the world we are living in?[2]

COMMENT: Well, Mr. Harris, you might want to check out the latest issue of Scientific American, where there is an article called “Accidental Genius,” addressing the well-known phenomenon of “Acquired Savant Syndrome.” In these cases, brain trauma does exactly as Harris suggests, “unmasks” extraordinary artistic and cognitive abilities. However, he has no reason to expect that this would necessary occur with every such trauma. He needs to explain why it would occur at all!

_____________________________________________________________

[NOTE: I AM SKIPPING A LOT HERE BECAUSE IT ADDRESSES SPECIFICS OF ALEXANDER’S EXPERIENCE WHICH I AGREE FOR THE MOST PART LACKS CREDIBILITY]

_____________________________________________________________

"For instance, I once had an opportunity to study with the great Tibetan lama Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche in Nepal. Before making the trip, I had a dream in which he seemed to give me teachings about the nature of the mind. . . .

"After traveling to Nepal and encountering the arresting figure of Khyentse Rinpoche instructing hundreds of monks from atop a brocade throne, I was struck by the sense that he really did resemble the man in my dream. Even more apparent, however, was the fact that I couldn’t know whether this impression was accurate. Clearly, it would have been more fun to believe that something magical had occurred and that I had been singled out for some sort of trans-personal initiation--but the allure of this belief suggested only that the bar for proof should be raised rather than lowered. And even though I had no formal scientific training at that point, I knew that human memory is unreliable under conditions of this kind. How much stock could I put in the feeling of familiarity? Was I accurately recalling the face of a man I had met in a dream, or was I engaged in a creative reconstruction of it? If nothing else, the experience of déjà vu proves that one’s sense of having experienced something previously can jump the tracks of genuine recollection. My travels in spiritual circles had also brought me into contact with many people who seemed all too eager to deceive themselves about experiences of this kind, and I did not wish to emulate them. Given these considerations, I did not believe that Khyentse Rinpoche had really appeared in my dream. And I certainly would never have been tempted to use this experience as conclusive proof of the supernatural.”

COMMENT: O.K. Then how would you interpret it? What would your materialist friends think about this? Is it reasonable to totally discount this experience as illusory? What does it tell you about the material world? What else might there be out there that is difficult to explain scientifically?

_____________________________________________________________

"1. Everything of substance in Alexander’s account hinges on his assertion that his cortex was shut down while he enjoyed a 'hyper-real' experience of the afterlife. It seems, however, that it is easy for many readers to miss this. For instance, I’ve heard from several people who think that Alexander successfully ruled out the hypothesis that a spike in the neurotransmitter DMT could explain his NDE. But he did so only by observing that DMT would require a functioning cortex upon which to act, whereas his cortex “wasn’t available to be affected.” But no neuro-physiological account of his experience could survive this treatment—because Alexander is asking us to stipulate that his cortex was functionally dead. As I have said, this is an incredible claim, rendered even less plausible by the fact that he does not appear to understand what sort of evidence would make it plausible.

COMMENT: Although Alexander mistakenly relied upon this extreme “shut-down” theory, it is only necessary to allege that it was severely compromised.

____________________________________________________________

"2. (Added 11/16/12) The phrase 'reducing valve' appears to come from Aldous Huxley in his 'Doors of Perception,' but the idea that the brain is a filter (rather than the origin) of mind goes back at least as far as Henri Bergson and William James. Both Bergson and James suggested that the purpose of the brain might be to limit conscious experience to a range of perceptions and mental states compatible with survival in this world. When the barrier of the brain is breached—whether partially, through mystical experience, or fully, upon the death of the body—a wider range of conscious states and cosmic understandings become available.

COMMENT: Right the filter theory (or sometimes the “transmission” theory) is old and was suggested by both Bergson and James.

____________________________________________________________

“However, as I said above, if the brain were merely a filter, damaging it should reliably increase cognition. Some readers objected to this, suggesting that the brain could be a filter that functions like a radio—a receiver of conscious states, rather than a mere barrier to them. At first glance, this would appear to account for the deleterious effects of neurological injury and disease: If one smashes a radio with a hammer, it no longer functions properly.

COMMENT: See above. Under the filter theory, damaging the brain need not “reliably increase cognition.” However, one would expect examples of increased cognition after brain trauma, which is what we find. Right. If one smashes a radio with a hammer it no longer functions properly. However, the radio waves, along with the information they contain, remains intact! The physical radio just cannot receive them! So, do you need a radio to receive them? Maybe not.

______________________________________________________________

"There is problem with this metaphor, however: Those who employ it forget that we are the music, not the radio. If the brain is truly a receiver of conscious states, it should be impossible to diminish a person’s experience of the cosmos by damaging his brain. He may seem unconscious from the outside--like a broken radio—but, subjectively speaking, the music plays on.

COMMENT: The music is NOT physical, the radio is physical, which represents the brain. The music represents the radio waves. The brain is the receiver that interprets the radio waves as music, but the question is whether absent the brain, the radio waves, which still exist, can be experienced by consciousness. And even though a damaged brain may be unconscious, it may require death, or near death, in order to release the mind from the inhibiting (filtering) brain. Or that is how the theory should be understood.

___________________________________________________________

"If Alexander’s account is correct, strategically damaging the brain should be the most reliable method of personal empowerment and spiritual practice available to us. In almost every case, loss of brain should yield more mind. Surely there must be a way of enjoying the benefits of this brain-reduction therapy while maintaining an ability to function in the physical world. He’s the neurosurgeon: I wonder which regions of his brain Alexander would remove first."
COMMENT: Yes, there is a strategic component to the filter theory. However, if we do not know the details of the theory, we cannot be expected to know the details of any strategy to take advantage of the theory. Again, it does not follow that the filter theory implies that “in almost every case loss of brain function should yield more mind.” No one has suggested there is a one-to-one correspondence between a given brain trauma and a cognitive function such as to be able to predict enhanced functions associated with particular trauma.

Conclusion: Eber Alexander's experience does not represent a credible NDE, and Harris is a poor critic of NDEs.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 04:59PM


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Posted by: elciz ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 04:47PM

Yawn. I'll never in a million years talk about what happened to me on this forum. Never. Ever. Not going to happen.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 05:01PM

At least that's what my grandfather ETB told me with tear-filled eyes when he refused to answer my question about what happend in the Salt Lake temple that marveilous day in June 1978 when Jesus told the Twelvers that Blacks were Ok after all and deserved the priesthood.

(P.S.--Bruce R. McConkie, who was also in the temple that day, later publicly spilled the beans, and it turned out that ithe Big Momont wasn't all that it had been cracked up to be).



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 06:06PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: mostcorrectedbook ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 05:03PM

If you are nearly dead, how can you assume and guarantee that your dream is 'true' and real?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 05:05PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 05:05PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: pioneerrose ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 05:47PM

I have read and I own a copy of Eben Alexander's book, and of Heaven is for Real; besides having an NDE, myself thirty years ago. I personally, like the theories as put forth by Stuart Hameroff.

Quantum Consciousness: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 06:05PM

The question is whether their "theories" are grounded in scientifically-sound evidences that can be empirically observed, recorded, replicated, tested, peer-reviewed and falsified.

If not, they are merely beliefs, often based in faith, not fact (and which then makes them "hypotheses," not "theories").

It's not the experience itself but, rather, the interpretation of the experience that really counts.

Ancient peoples used to hear thunder rolling forth from the mountaintops and believed it was God's voice talking to them--that is, until meteorology stepped in.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 06:13PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 06:12PM

But when it comes down to it, an experience, be it a near-death experience, hallucination or indeed any other experience, is just that: the mind interpreting and trying to make some sort of sense of the signals flowing through it.

I'm not surprised that people have near-death experiences; they occur when the brain is obviously under considerable "strain", but I am disappointed that people consider them to be any different from the hallucinations caused by, for example, the strongest hallucinogen currently known, the salvinorin A found in Salvia divinorum (legal in most places, by the way, or by large doses of psilocybin, both of which replace "consensus reality" with utterly believable "other realities", often of great "spiritual" import.

That doesn't mean that those substances bring you closer to "god" or whatever you wish to call it. It just means that, in extreme conditions such as ingestion of certain substances or near-death, experiences cannot be trusted, particularly when they are not shared independently by others (people tripping on drugs together very rarely see the same things).

What makes people think that NDEs are any different?

Sure, they're extremely convincing hallucinations, but that's all they are.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: rgg ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 06:23PM

I agree with some of the others.

Steve, you have become a real bully.

This board is about recovering from Mormonism. I agree that oftentimes we do discuss other topics but sometimes you go too far and maybe there are other boards that would be more appropriate for some of your postings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 06:24PM by rgg.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 27, 2014 06:28PM

. . . grappling with the science. The reality is that empirical science is merciless, and running to momma will not protect you from it.

As to recovering from Mormonism, the topic of NDEs is regularly brought up in this forum by ex-Mormons recovering from the LDS Cult who present NDEs as evidence of what they regard as proof of sound spiritual (or, in some cases, even scientific) belief. Follow the threads on that, for gawd's sake.

In the meantime, I am not the boogeyman. That is simply Halloween jargon. And, of course, there are no such things as ghosts. :)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2014 12:30AM by steve benson.

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