For anyone that might be concerned about my well being, I’m Ok. Bitten, yes, well mauled, but I’m ok. (see http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1365508 ) One responder paraphrased my insanely long writing as, “I don’t like pushy arrogant atheists.” The responder is both correct and wrong. Yes, I don’t like arrogant pushy atheists but that is not why I wrote the thread. I go with the idea that it is better to wear shoes than try to carpet the world. My concern is for people facing the trauma of the loss of their world view coming to this site and either being directly ambushed by arrogant pushy atheist or seeing others ambushed and thus not being supported in their efforts to find their own authentic path. An analogy would be that of a person who leaves the protection of a corrupt police state only to get taken over by a gang on the other side of the tracks and forced into gang membership.
In looking at the responses to my post I admire those that can say I don’t know, live and let live. Many responded with the classical line taught by one of my grade school teachers and made popularized by PEE-WEE H. , “I know you are but what am I?” There are often rubs in interchanges between human beings and the question comes down to who sees the situation clearly and who is throwing rocks at their own self reflection because they project into the other their own failings. One of the traits of a self-actualized person (see http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/tp/self-actualized-characteristic.htm ) is that they see the world more clearly. The reason for this clarity of view is that the self-actualized person has worked through their own repressed unconscious material and thus they are no longer forced to unconsciously and automatically project this material into the people around them – a classical defense mechanism.
If a person loves truth more than their beliefs they must be willing and actually seek for examples in nature that are not explained or predicted by their theories. Newton's laws of motion ruled science for many years until subtle errors in the laws, which were considered gospel, caused Einstein to develop his modifications to Newton’s laws. The major obstacle to progress is the belief that a person has arrived at some pinnacle of truth. (see http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_you_are_always_changing ). Einstein himself fell into this trap in regards to quantum theory, which he couldn’t accept. The ‘nothing but’ attitude is so prevalent; ‘reality is nothing but what I already understand.’

None of the ‘I now you are but what am I’ gang were able to respond intelligently to what I wrote. For example, I said, “A True Believing Mormon’s world view would be blown apart if they were to accept evidence that the church is false. A True Believing Atheist’s world view would be blown apart if they were to accept evidence that NDEs are valid.” I then shared my own and other’s experience that I see as being destructive to an atheist’s world view if they were more open to seeing a different prospective from their own than the average TBM. Here is an example from my writing contained in a story of a conversation between Jung and Freud.
**
“It interested me to hear Freud's views on precognition and on parapsychology in general. When I visited him in Vienna in 1909 I asked him what he thought of these matters. Because of his materialistic prejudice, he rejected this entire complex of questions as nonsensical, and did so in terms of so shallow a positivism that I had difficulty in checking the sharp retort on the tip of my tongue. It was some years before he recognized the seriousness of parapsychology and acknowledged the factuality of "occult" phenomena.
While Freud was going on this way, I had a curious sensation. It was as if my diaphragm were made of iron and were becoming red-hot a glowing vault. And at that moment there was such a loud report in the bookcase, which stood right next to us, that we both started up in alarm, fearing the thing was going to topple over on us. I said to Freud: "There, that is an example of a so-called catalytic exteriorization phenomenon."
"Oh come," he exclaimed. "That is sheer bosh."
"It is not," I replied. "You are mistaken, Herr Professor. And to prove my point I now predict that in a moment there will be another such loud report!" Sure enough, no sooner had I said the words than the same detonation went off in the bookcase.
To this day I do not know what gave me this certainty. But I knew beyond all doubt that the report would come again. Freud only stared aghast at me. I do not know what was in his mind, or what his look meant. In any case, this incident aroused his mistrust of me, and I had the feeling that I had done something against him, I never afterward discussed the incident with him.”
**
The question comes down to this, who loves truth and who is unconsciously driven to throws sand into other’s eyes to protect their limited beliefs from being exposed for their limitations?

I'm confident Mormonism is a fraud , but I'm not atheist. I hope there's more than this life (afterlife?), but I don't know -- neither does anyone else on this board.

So now you are grading the responses to your previous thread, and telling us which ones were intellectually up to snuff?

Hokay.

Let me guess. The ones who agreed with you love truth. The many who didn't, or just found your writing insufferable are unconsciously driven to throw sand in other's eyes to protect their limited beliefs from bring exposed for their limitations.

On the plus side, low self esteem doesn't appear to be a problem.

To those who have "lost their pack"

I havent found myself entirely attacked but rather embued with logic at a time of intermittent panic by many many atheists on this board

Further i found myself guided by strength through finding rather than danger, people who value fairness in relationship, and help exploring needs and wants without exploiting shame and these guides included atheists

I worked for a humanist principal for 15 years. Turns out my spouse is a sort of diest close as I can understand. God is in each tree. In nature. Not locked in a temple although god may be in the lifefirce of the people if they know it or not deny it or not lol.

I have found the voices of atheists online a positive overall ;-)
See they attempt to be more gnostic may anguish moving between agnostic and atheist i am more into the thoughtful logical analytical atheist in the spirit of adventure of life- seek it

The true believer essay had nice references to great thinkers whose ideas might explain the development of a true believer.
& they may be anywhere

But just as the atheist s on this board hace served to help us grow/ as we faced fear and change,

Calling any true believer a name or label as such would not help them grow or change their developmental stage

I don't get it.

you are obviously a pushy arrogant theist.

Pushy, yes, sometimes.
Arrogant, maybe occasionally.
Theist? Oh, hell no.

:>)

Dave was definitely addressing the OP, not you dogzilla. I don't think anyone would mistake you for a theist. He happened to post beneath you, but not in reply to you. :)

Oh thanks. That's what I get for multitasking = not paying close enough attention.

;>)

Good grief Dogzilla !
Pay attention to the indents lest I rap you on the knuckles with a ruler !

Accusing those whose arguments you simply don't like of being childish and throwing sand isn't going to get you very far if you wanted an actual debate.
Pot meet kettle. Do try to address some of the points you claim are not worth addressing. What logical fallacy are you committing?

I'm not sure what you're after here. I loved the analogy about wearing shoes rather than carpet the world. Are you trying to change the nature of RFM? Isn't this like carpeting RFM rather than stepping into some thick soled shoes and wading in? I love hearing other people's experiences. I don't like being scolded or told what to believe. I find your point of view interesting, but it sounds like you want to change everyone. Good luck with that.

I get you ab, have you heard the expression "once a marine, always a marine" the same applies to many exmormons. While they may not beleive in the mormon plan of salvation, they are very much mormon in the sense that they are still condescending,judgmental,rigid in thought and many still have that mormon superiority complex.


Personally, I have no belief system. I had jackmo parents who fortunately let me believe whatever i wanted. But to minimize someone else's experience, because it doesn't fit their worldview is just so...... mormon. Then again, when you've been brainwashed on the heavy duty cycle relentlessly, this is to be expected

I can't understand having no belief system. Certainly you have thoughts and opinions--that's a belief system. Could you explain?

People who believe so strongly in their lack of beliefs that they went to the trouble of creating a web site to clarify why their beliefs are not beliefs.

George Carlin would have loved this!

But i do have beliefs.

I believe I'll have another beer

I beleive that hot stripper is worth a $20 lap dance

BTW, one of my favorite Carlin lines

"why do we park in a driveway, and drive in a parkway"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 05:02PM by Susan I/S.

Oh my. I cannot read so many lines all together with so little white space.

"My concern is for people facing the trauma of the loss of their world view coming to this site and either being directly ambushed by arrogant pushy atheist or seeing others ambushed and thus not being supported in their efforts to find their own authentic path."

Let me help you out... This isn't your site. It's not mine either. The people who operate this site have been doing so a lot longer than you've been posting here and they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing.

They've been helping people come to terms with exiting mormonism for a very, very long time. I trust that they have a good idea of what they are doing. If someone becomes too pushy, with anything, theism, atheism or anything else, I have seen them address that very quickly.

In other words, you state that you don't want to carpet the world and would rather wear shoes, but in the very next line suggest that you want to carpet all of RfM, protecting it from "pushy atheists", why not just wear your shoes here too.

Also, if you want to come have an open debate, then expect that you are going to have people question your viewpoint, many very intelligently. You're going to have to do better than dismissing them as saying "I know you are but what am I?".

Since you may not have read it, I'll quote the sticky at the top of the board from the admins regarding Religious Wars (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,45):

"Religious Wars

"One topic has repeatedly caused disputes on the Recovery Board since its founding: religion versus atheism. That topic goes to the heart of why most people are here, so it is not something that we can ban or ignore.

"One of the things about exmormon.org that gives us credibility is that we are secular: we are not affiliated with any religion and we do not advocate any religion. The site is neutral on the topic. Our posters take many different paths away from mormonism and we would like this to be a forum where they can all have a voice. That said, we do not allow preaching; personal experiences and thoughtful discussion are welcome, but we do not want the site to get bogged down with people quoting dogma at each other.

"Mormonism is a form of Christianity and religion so, for some people, recovery from mormonism will also include leaving Christianity or religion altogether. This does not mean that Christians or the discussion of Christianity are discouraged here. Far from it! This site is Christian-friendly. It is not, however, Christian-safe. Do not assume that everyone here will share your beliefs; other posters can and will disagree with and challenge what you say. If you decide that you need a site that is Christian-safe as well, we can recommend some places.

"Remember, be polite and thoughtful in your postings. Don't preach. Tell how you feel about something personally and tell what you yourself have experienced. Don't make assumptions about the beliefs of those who read your post. People will disagree with you. If that hurts, all I can suggest is that you grow a thicker skin or find somewhere else to post."

Obviously it needs to be restated.

"AB" you will find a more sympathetic audience here if you talk about your own experiences instead of attempting to lecture. Lectures may be great if you are teaching a class but they fall flat here. This is not your classroom and you are not the Prof here. These are adults (for the most part) with their own experiences and paths out of mormonism as are you. Discussion about your OWN path is what this place is about.

So how about you step down off the podium and start working some "I" statements in your posts.

AB - Susan I/S is the Big Boss around here - in case you didn't know. And then there's Eric, the Bigger Big Boss.

Looks like your paper got a failing grade but you get to try again.

I agree with the response further up that says you don't have to take it upon yourself to fix anything around here. Just let us get to know you and your own path, as Sus I/S has explained. In this case, it's all about 'I' and not so much about 'you'. Translation: We don't want to be told what's wrong with us, from a stranger's perspective.

LOL I come on here to relax, not for angst and drama!

"Einstein himself fell into this trap in regards to quantum theory, which he couldn’t accept. The ‘nothing but’ attitude is so prevalent; ‘reality is nothing but what I already understand.’"

Here's the thing: It is obvious that reality is more than the things we already understand. But when we make up a story about things we don't understand and say that it is beyond evidence or prop it up with hearsay, we are pretending that we know more than we do. It doesn't seem ridiculous or cold to me that any such story should come under scrutiny or attack. Although I think it's a lot better to keep the focus on the parts of the story that don't have any observational support, instead of making the person feel that their person is ridiculous.

And on that note, your calling atheists animals that run in a pack, or saying they are like (GASP!) Mormons, is an attempt to make the person seem ridiculous instead of addressing the allegedly ridiculous idea.

And on the topic of people who say the atheists on this board are like those intolerant Mormons, I'm sick of that shit. It feels like a grade school argument to me: "You're like a stupid MOR-MON!" If someone attacks your story, defend it. If someone attacks your personhood, call them out on it. But don't try to hold them guilty by association.

As and for the atheists being dishonest if they clain to know that there is no God. You are right. There is no such knowledge. But throughout history when people have come across something they didn't understand, they have made up stories to explain them. But it seems to me that for any random story that someone makes up the odds are astromically stack against it, for the simple fact that it is something that we don't understand. Zeus made a lot of sense in his day. I can't honestly say that I absolutely know without a doubt that Zeus or a Zeus-like being doesn't exist.


There is a theory that everything that we can imagine exists somehow in some universe somewhere. I can't prove that this theory is untrue. By this theory, Frodo and Gandalf could exist somewhere. So to be intellectually honest I need to remain agnostic to Frodo-Gandalfianism, to do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest. So I will just kind of let all of that hang out there and try to pay attention to the things I am able to observe and understand, and try to extend that by observing and testing. And when someone comes to me with a randon untestable and unprovable story, I'm not going to take it seriously. I will take their right to cherish and live by that story seriously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2014 06:37PM by doubtnot.

"And on that note, your calling atheists animals that run in a pack, or saying they are like (GASP!) Mormons, is an attempt to make the person seem ridiculous instead of addressing the allegedly ridiculous idea."

In this forum it is the same as Godwin's Law.

One of the reasons I keep coming back to RfM is because I don't have to wade through detailed attacks from one poster to another.

I'm sure many of you have had the experience of checking out a forum on some subject of interest and leaned back, ready for some fresh views or ideas on the subject. To your great disappointment, the forum has degenerated to name calling and/or sexual content, no matter what the name of the forum is. (especially Craigslist fora? forums?)

It definitely is the PeeWee Herman syndrome.

OP - We don't care what you think of us. We want to hear what your experience was with Mormonism, if you have one, or why you came to this forum, if you choose to share. You appear to be a theist, so give us your reasons for hanging on.


Kathleen Waters, atheist

what an atheist is, but I wanted to know for sure, so I asked. I was treated with complete respect and the responses I got were very informative and I was impressed. It changed my whole attitude.

Did it make me an atheist? No. I really don't know what I am. Someone described me as an apathist (spelling???). I quit trying to figure it out.

What I've found after being on the board for 9 years is that it is usually the Christians who come here to preach and the atheists who tell them to back up their claims with proof. I don't think I've ever seen it the other way around. It was actually the preaching of the Christians that made me rethink Christianity. They were the ones who convinced me the bible is just as true as the BofM.

Not only is the bible as true as the BoM, all gods are equally real.

I agree. When I first came to the board I still believed in God and Jesus. Both Christians and atheists gave me reasons to reconsider that and now I am atheist. Preachy in any direction is not helpful. In fact, it's a real turnoff.

+1 c12 That is what I have always seen here.

I understand your views I'm a theist and think some posts do lean too much in either direction. But for me this board should not be about theism or atheism but discussing the issues with mormonism. If we go down the road of infighting then we lose members on all sides.

I don't preach theism on here and I don't expect others to preach either theism or atheism.

I'm sorry if I came off a bit snarky with my summary of your post as "I don’t like pushy arrogant atheists.” But that's how it came across, whether intentional or not.

You wrote: "None of the ‘I know you are but what am I’ gang were able to respond intelligently to what I wrote."

I'm not sure it's a matter of not being ABLE to respond, so much as being WILLING to invest the time to do so. One of the problems of having a super long post, with so many ideas in it, is that it's time-consuming to respond. I chose to respond to a couple of themes, including the dislike/discrediting of atheists and one of the generalizations about passionate people. But to adequately address every point in your post would require hours, if not days. Most people simply aren't going to put that kind of time into a response, although I'm sure it took a long time and a lot of effort to put your post together in the first place.

Another thing to consider is that when you lash out at a group of people in your topic line: "Destructive, Fundamentalist, Predatory, True-Believing Ex-Mormons", you might not get a sympathetic response from those same exmormons. You could take that as evidence that we are mean, destructive, or stubborn or whatever. Or you could give up trying to label and analyze people and just have a discussion about ideas.

But maybe just a couple at a time.

Your point is taken. I was embellishing to make a point and crossed a line. I really don't take myself that seriously. I am, after all, a self acknowledged fool.