This is a serious question for atheists and those who don't believe in the continuation of souls/spirits or an afterlife.

Leaving Mormonism and coming to terms with reality was really sad in some ways. First came rethinking the nature of god. I no longer believe he is a man like all knowing being standing watch over our lives, intervening/not intervening in our daily affairs. This realization was both frightening and liberating at the same time. I lean toward agnostic in my thinking about god. Naturally my belief in Christ as savior and redeemer fell away too. That for me was sadder than disbelieving in god as I thought I knew him. Believing in Christ was comforting and I felt like I lost a friend.

However, saddest of all is I'm starting to lean toward not believing there is any continuation after this life. There is no logical or scientific reason to believe we have spirits that go on, that we'll live with our loved ones in paradise forever after. I don't necessarily want to believe this, but for me, all signs are pointing to this. And it is terribly devastating and sad. At times, I wish I had never taken the red pill. Mormonism certainly has it's problems, but it also provided a cozy comforting fairy tale to tell ourselves.

Right now I'm very sad and a little depressed thinking about the end really being the end. That I won't live happily with my family, that my children won't be joining me in the afterlife. That this is all there is.

So, for those that have been there done that, how do you cope? How do you come to term with this new reality?

Help a sister out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 11:06PM by twistedsister.

The answer to your subject line: have low expectations. But further, I actually haven't thought much about your direct questions. I see it as people making their own heavens. My idea of heaven is different than my uncle's, for instance. I know that isn't very deep, but it works from several angles for me. That our energies exist after we die has been discussed on this forum (I think...) before. I look forward to reading others' viewpoints.

Reality isn't a disappointment, it just is. The end that you are apprehensive about was always the only option. Now that you realize that you had been deceived you mourn the loss of the lie.

Understanding that you only have this life to take advantage of things that are most precious should allow for greater focus. Don't bemoan the loss of something that was never going to be, rejoice that you can now appreciate what you really have.

Want to know something very disappointing?

No miracles.

More broadly, no healing, no prophecies, no revelation. No supernatural power working in your life. Nothing but human abilities working with imperfect knowledge.

Yes, all those were disappoints too but much easier to get past than these other questions I had been putting off. The atonement, and the miracles in the bible were so strange and illogical to me that in some ways it was a relief to know they were bogus.

White Cliffs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing but human abilities working with
> imperfect knowledge.



Performing miraculous things. What human ability has accomplished is quite a story.

I completely get where you're coming from. When my shelf fell, something that threw me off completely was a loss of belief in God or Christ. I wasn't expecting that to happen. So I guess I found myself as atheist, but I didn't want to give up all hope, so I settled on agnostic. Except for my own family, I'm closeted agnostic and publicly I just that I believe in God and Christ without needing religion. It's so much easier to fit in and not have to deal with people feeling sorry for me, thinking I worship the devil, or whatever else is out there for atheists/agnostics.

I have also had the same thoughts that you mention above. My thinking is this - all of humanity goes through the process of life from birth until death. Whatever happens after death (if anything) is part of the journey that we're all on together. So take comfort in knowing that you are not alone in the journey and you're only going where your ancestors and others have already gone. And of course, enjoy life now for what it is :)

Another interesting perspective... as a TBM, I would sometimes try to think of what it meant to live forever without an end. When I was deep in that kind of thinking, it really scared the sh*t out of me because in some way I actually wanted it to end... I mean, forever is incomprehensible and I thought that I'd go stir crazy if there was no end. But I used the same logic as I mentioned earlier - just think of being on the same journey as everyone else and relax.

Quite frankly, the whole concept that we're here and thinking is quite amazing to me. I have no idea how it happened... how it began, or how (or if) it ends. Kind of sad, because you don't have the canned answers from TSCC. But that was just the philosophies of men... mingled with scripture. At least not knowing is better than "knowing" something that is untrue.

I say this in the name of cheese and rice, amen!

You know, funny you mention the mormon idea of living on forever and ever. When I thought about going on and on and on without end for eternity, that too scared me so much I couldn't bring myself to think about it.

Haha, what irony. The idea of living FOREVER scared me so much I couldn't think about it, now the idea of life ending at death saddens me so much I don't want to think about it.

Why couldn't I be born a dog or something? Haha

Hey, maybe reincarnation isn't that bad of an idea after all :)

But there is continuation beyond this life....and the truth of what there is, well, its grander than the things you've been taught.
My father passed away a few years ago. 4 months after his passing, while delivering newspapers, I received a very strong impression to read about NDE's.
The first web site I came across (http://www.near-death.com/) began a year long soul searching for truth and what I could believe.
Now, I am stronger and happier and more spirituality "in tune" than I ever was as a Mormon.

About Jesus, and everything else....Throw out every piece of 'scripture' EXCEPT what is attributed to Jesus - what he said, what he did. Focus only on what Jesus taught.
He never said "Everyone must be baptized", did He?
What did he talk about most often? Love.

This post may ramble a bit, but you will see your family again, believe me (yea, I'm an RM, you can trust me, ha).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 11:40PM by sopris.

That's nice that you believe in the continuation of life, but I can't force myself to believe in it. Sorry, but your believing in something other than what I believe doesn't bring me comfort.

I have not 100% discounted the afterlife, but I'm leaning pretty strongly that way.

I understand...but look at the 'conclusions' presented at that site. They may help.

NDEs can be explained scientifically, google NDE Michael Sherman.

As for the reality, all I can say, as an athiest, it thank Gaia.

No more worrying that someone I love will be thrust into hell or outer darkmess, or even that I will be. No more wondering if ghosts exist or spirits watching. It's all BS. And there's real closure in knowing someone's spirit isn't around after they're dead, being all poingant and silently slipping around and saying goodbye, because there's no such thing as a spirit. It's all just human nonsense.

Give me a nice simple end and that's all I need. Goodbye superstition.

I've read all the so-called theories and explanations intended to discredit NDE's. Interesting theories, but, only theories which cannot proven.

Your perspective is interesting. The "theories and explanations intended to discredit" are not trying to discredit they are are simply theories and explanations. And they can be proven, they just cannot disprove. Imagine it like this.

NDE Believer: Your explanation cannot disprove life after death.

NDE Explainer: I'm just trying to explain what an NDE is not trying to disprove life after death.

Technically, our works and deeds carry on through our interactions with other people. In this view, we "live forever". We don't need to believe in a higher power to understand that good works are important to society. Humans will carry on for many years into the future and we can either help create a better future or make it worse. We have a short life, so choose wisely...

The reality that this life is all there is devastating after decades of believing in the CK or even heaven. But what happened to me is slowly becoming more focused on this life and enjoying how wonderful it is to share in this planet's long, long history. I now feel more connected to all life on the earth and its place in the universe. We know life exists in the here and now, so let's make the most of it by having a more positive effect on all life around us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2014 12:03AM by Tom Padley.

What you've described is something that I've gone through myself. Although, I found accepting every facet of Mormonism difficult when I was in the church, I still chose to not think about the harder truths for a long time.

For me, the hardest thing is imagining or grasping the idea that the consciousness or "I Am" will one day cease to exist, for me and my loved ones. Sometimes it still scares me. But even with that as the most likely prospect, I decided to look hard at what I would be happy with, at the very end.

I will be happy with not being "special", in the sense of rising above the average. I've come to find comfort in the shared normality that many of us humans have. I've also come to realise that I've been enormously lucky and that if all I have to show for my life is my children then that is enough. They are wonderful individuals and I am enormously lucky to be their mother.

I strive (but admittedly don't always achieve) to be a kind and caring person to the people around me. I try to learn more everyday and I work toward happiness with what I have, instead of focussing on what I don't have.

I'm in my mid-40's so it's been on my mind a lot. I was present when my father passed away and as horrible as that was, I never once wished for a beautiful fairy tale instead of the truth. For me, that was progress. What I also learned is just how much my father touched other people's lives in his quiet way. Also, he was surrounded by people who loved him and that is a true happiness.

A god won't make you happier or better or more well remembered as much as your own actions will. Besides, all that really happens is the re-arrangement of the particles that comprised your body, after that what was once you has the opportunity to be part of many different organisms. I hope one day, that parts of me end up wandering through space. And, if that's all there is, then I'm coming to a point where I'm at peace with that.

I'm not sure if that qualifies as "helping a sister out", but I hope so. :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2014 12:10AM by sassypants.

It makes me sad twistedsis that you're carrying this burden. Religion, of any sort tends to sell a person the promise of eternity in exchange for any sense of a joyful existence on earth.

One's reality is simply the culmination of your own unique thoughts. If you were to remove all thoughts away from the future and out of the past, all you're left with is the moment. That's where the power to learn, to love and experience joy lies.

Hugs:)

I felt the same at first. Then I thought that the universe is this way and there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

I also thought that the nature of the universe didn't change because I now know more (know the Church isn't true). Things were this way ever since I was born, ever since the first man evolved. And humanity has been doing just fine so far.

I also thought that time and space are really the same thing, and just as I am limited in the space I occupy, I am also limited in the time I occupy. That time seems linear to us, but it depends on your point of view. The people that are dead to me, are alive in their own time, and they don't know they've died. They're dead only from my point of view, just as I'm already dead from my great grandchildren's point of view.

Considering that I'm already dead (just as a glass dropped from the table is already broken, even before it hits the floor), as well as everyone I know and love, motivates me to enjoy the few fleeting moments I still have and be happy.

I exist now. That's enough for me.

There are a couple of things that might affect how you deal with this. One is how long it's been since you stopped believing in an afterlife, and another might be your age. A third might be how happy you are with your life.

It was really hard for me at first. Death was real for the first time in my life. I mourned my own mortality, and the loss of any kind of reward or future after death. I can't remember how long it took for those feelings to fade. But gradually, I started accepting the inevitability of death. I also found comfort in the fact that I had a lot of good years left to live.

I also started focusing on the things I wanted to do in life, and I felt a greater urgency to do them, since I wouldn't have a life after death to finish things up. We started doing more family activities and I started studying some things I had wanted to learn for a long time. I started working on creating the life I want NOW, instead of postponing enjoyment until after death. And that's something that's always a challenge to do, with the many demands any adult has on their time and attention. It's so easy to do what's expected of us, instead of making time for what we WANT to do. But knowing that I only have THIS life makes it that much more important to MAKE time. You've probably only got one shot at this.

I also thought a LOT. What would it be like to cease to exist? It wouldn't hurt. I wouldn't be disappointed. I would just cease.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Hang in there. It's a shock to shake up your whole idea of what life and death mean. You have to rebuild your sense of purpose and meaning for your life.

> I also started focusing on the things I wanted to
> do in life, and I felt a greater urgency to do
> them, since I wouldn't have a life after death to
> finish things up. We started doing more family
> activities and I started studying some things I
> had wanted to learn for a long time. I started
> working on creating the life I want NOW, instead
> of postponing enjoyment until after death. And
> that's something that's always a challenge to do,
> with the many demands any adult has on their time
> and attention. It's so easy to do what's expected
> of us, instead of making time for what we WANT to
> do. But knowing that I only have THIS life makes
> it that much more important to MAKE time. You've
> probably only got one shot at this.

^ THIS. Well-stated... I came to the same conclusion and am enjoying life much more now.

I hear you 100% and was in the same boat. I left the church nearly a year ago, took a short pit-stop in agnostic land and landed quickly into atheism. It was sad to realize this is it at first, but I've come to terms with it. It just takes time to fully digest.

In some ways it's a relief, because as a believing TBM the thought of becoming a god and having eternal gain wasn't appealing in the slightest to me. I've never been extremely material on earth and although the church isn't explicit about it, it seems to me the eternal promises are at least some if not largely material (worlds without end, etc.).

As has already been mentioned, I like the urgency to create out of my life what I want it to be NOW. I'm naturally compelled to chase what I want in life. This year has been amazing for me. I've lived it exactly the way I wanted to (within the natural limits of course). I've played tennis to my heart's content, read books, played my vinyl, went to the US Open men's tennis final (a dream of mine), have been working on being more social (never a strongpoint of mine), have taken up running (I'm up to a 7 mile route now!), and there's so much ahead. Life is truly sweet once you are able to assimilate to your newfound belief and run with it.

I look at the mountains. foothill ranch country roads. moonlight. trees. rolling pickup truck. does not let me down- another country road. omg (sigh) That's never disapoints me.
Now let me talk about my camera taking pictures of trees & hills & mountain tops

I found out love is, that love is, during biopsies appointments and surgeries repeatedly, that someone loves me. love is. I am existing. I can be and see and feel the love around me.
When my kids had tumors I found I felt love, through biopsies surgeries letting them go into independence I loved them I felt it I was alive in it- In my surviving my surgeries I found love & knew finally love is. Those who loved me saw me through my surgeries & my kids' surgeries,t hose who'd hated & abused me left me alone to the surgeries & kids' tumors--- ultimately
making love, and living in a loving community, a new me.
Do I really need eternity to finally find the love of God?
somewhere, out there? I found love & left hell, in this life

Lets imagine the unknowns.

some people look a t string theory (something about if you influence one particle somewhere, another paired particle is influence (like physically) ? eh? ) as possible explaination for a real-version of ? the unknown?
is less, 'unknowable' ?
this has been used as potential justification for reasons why some phenomena occur or is real (experience or human capacity)

unknowns. like psy phenomena.

or orbs. in sunshine.

or meditative states.

I don't know about human connection. what I do know, is, part of my experience with it.

& I don't know effective vocabulary to talk about it, but what I do know, is, different groups have their own synonyms trying to talk about the same thing: connection or connectivity between life, lives (even pets not just people) or for some, trees.

who knows! maybe its unknowable. or maybe some science is catching up about why.

about love: maybe it is unknowable. What I do know is, I found out, in this one lifetime that although I was raised to think I was unloveable junk lucky for the air someone let me breath-
I found out instead that I know love & I love & I am loveable in a relationship spanning years through which I discovered- that love is. in community . through a relationship, I found this out.
this life itself can be in a nutshell like what you dreamed of eternity- what if you discover, learn, grow, explore & be?
Isn't that what you wanted (lds) for eternity?

You're here.

BRING IT /even if its short, & what if
even if its not eternal, what if
you exist but not as an eternal
personality- which was contextual
situational relational within the
constraints of a world anyway
which no longer exists in the rest
of eternity-
then what is you & what is me
even if there was eternity would
no longer exist As we are0

so what.we're here. its worth it

It wasn't the LDS church I left, but I was in a cult, nevertheless. I didn't become an athiest. For me, I still believe in God for quite a few reasons that make sense to me, and I don't believe that it's blind faith, but based on what I know of science.

Even so, it was still a rude awakening. After a while, I realized that it wasn't God who screwed up, but man, so why would I blame god?

But since you're leaning towards agnostic and no afterlife, that means that you haven't given up on the thought completely, so you never know - you might find across some great answer that makes it all make sense for you ^^

I guess all that I can think of for you is try to enjoy the life that you have here and make your mark. Do things that make you happy (as long as it doesn't harm others, of course :P ). If you have limited time, then make the most of it!

hth and I hope you find your answers

In Mormonism the HERE AND NOW doesn't matter except as an
obstacle course to get you to the CK which is the ONLY THING
THAT MATTERS.

So as a Mormon you don't enjoy the HERE AND NOW; you only look
forward to making it to the CK. But what would you do there?
Supposedly more of the stuff you do HERE AND NOW but on a
different level and forever.

If you can't enjoy the HERE AND NOW, how the hell are you going
to enjoy eternity?

Maybe my pessimistic nature paid off here. I dreaded Mormon afterlife. Even if I made it to the planet owner level, it sounded dreadful. Eternal progression? Ugggg. Don't I ever just get to rest? Sometimes when I am sleeping poorly I'll have a dream that gets on a loop. Over and over, not even a bad dream, just this same damn dream again and again. When I finally wake up, it's such a relief. That's how I look at eternal consciousness--shudder.

I like Mark Twain's idea--loosely quoted. I didn't miss being alive before I was born. I'm guessing I won't miss it after I'm dead. Sure, there's some fear of the unknown and no more coffee is a tragedy, but non-existence sounds like my kind of heaven.

I tend to focus on what I can change and put aside whatever I can't change.

It works for me but if it doesn't work for you, I understand. I guess you feel you're losing something you counted on. I think time will heal your disappointment.

It has really never bothered me.

When loved ones die, I'm naturally sad. While you are alive, you miss having people you love in your life whether you believe in an afterlife or not.

When you are dead, you are dead. You won't be feeling anything. Before I was born, I didn't miss anyone, and I expect being dead will be no different.

There is zero evidence to support an afterlife. It's wishful thinking for some. The non-existence of a fantasy world isn't a cause for sadness for me.

I was raised catholic and the catholic version of the afterlife was never compelling for me. I believe in a lot of things that contradict catholic teaching, like reproductive rights. For most catholics, the afterlife would include a stint in purgatory, which is like hell only temporary. Then you go to heaven. Other than "it's wonderful," there's no real teaching of what heaven is like, other than you get to chill with god. It never sounded very compelling to me.

As far as the Mormon version of heaven, as a woman, it sounds horrible. I'd find the idea of no afterlife pretty attractive in comparison.

“In a world where death is the hunter, my friend, there is no time for regrets or doubts. There is only time for decisions.” - Castaneda

My advice is to embrace the fact that you are dead meat. Period. Truly embrace the reality that you will die.

Feel it. Let it wash over you and through you.

Once you've done that you'll have a completely different outlook on life in general.

There's a rich history in India of people meditating by staring at dead & decaying bodies.

I truly believe that when you embrace your inevitable death you will no longer fear it and life will become an amazing, fleeting experience that you will not be able to take for granted.

"However, saddest of all is I'm starting to lean toward not believing there is any continuation after this life. There is no logical or scientific reason to believe we have spirits that go on, that we'll live with our loved ones in paradise forever after. I don't necessarily want to believe this, but for me, all signs are pointing to this. And it is terribly devastating and sad. At times, I wish I had never taken the red pill. Mormonism certainly has it's problems, but it also provided a cozy comforting fairy tale to tell ourselves."

COMMENT: The worldview that you deem inevitable, is not based upon a proper understanding of science, particularly its profound limitations. Your assumption that there is "no logical or scientific reason" to believe in survival of death, for example, is simply not true. Now, certainly there is no proof of life after death; but neither is there proof otherwise. The question is a matter of evidence, and I assure you there is competent and credible evidence, however inconclusive, that would support a continuing faith in survival of death. Moreover, this evidence is not simply "paranormal" evidence, although this kind of evidence is important and relevant, when it is credible. It also includes substantive "evidence" from physics, biology, cosmology, etc. Now admittedly, this idea of "evidence" is loosely defined, and is not direct in the sense that it affirms life after death in a direct way. However, what it does offer is a clear perspective that the human mind, and life itself, is special in the universe; and that mind, the complex mechanisms of life, as well as the laws of the universe generally, are not easily explanable in terms that do not encompass a teleological view of design and purpose. I do not mean to suggest that this implies "God" in any religious sense, but it does strongly suggest that we should not jump to conclusions hastily when making judgments about the meaning, or lack of meaning, of life, and our place in it, including the issue of survival of death.

> The question
> is a matter of evidence, and I assure you there is
> competent and credible evidence, however
> inconclusive, that would support a continuing
> faith in survival of death. Moreover, this
> evidence is not simply "paranormal" evidence,
> although this kind of evidence is important and
> relevant, when it is credible. It also includes
> substantive "evidence" from physics, biology,
> cosmology, etc.

As a new skeptic in life after death, I am not well-researched on this topic. I would be interested in specific examples or references that support what you are saying above. This isn't a challenge... it's a genuine request for non-paranormal evidence in the disciplines you cite.

I self-describe as an atheist, too. However, I have to qualify that by saying the God I don't believe exists is the GOTB--God of the Bible. The Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. You know, that invisible "man in the sky" who sees everything and has opinions and really cares about how you dress or where you go to church and wants worshipped and loves you to pieces, unless you do something "forbidden" and then casts you into a pit of fire for all eternity. He's also the one who "saves" that special survivor of a train wreck or plane crash, etc., yet let several hundred children drown horribly and slowly in that ferryboat accident in the sea off South Korea. Didn't lift one finger to help those children, even though they broke their fingers trying to escape the rising water. Several hundred families will grieve for the rest of their lives for those beloved children they lost, and I do NOT believe in a god who was "working in a mysterious way." That's the guy I don't believe exists.

However, I believe there is probably some type of "shared consciousness" that we share with all living beings, and this may continue after physical death--let me change "may continue" to "probably continues". One reason I think this is because when I was about 11 years old, I accidently left my body. I was just sitting there reading, and all of a sudden I was standing on the other side of the room looking at myself sitting there reading. This *totally* freaked me out. I had no idea how I had gotten out. When my thought turned to, "Oh poop, how do I get back in??" I was suddenly back in my body, sitting in the chair with my book. When my mother died, the minister (Methodist) said some very comforting things during her funeral service. He said there are no "streets of gold" but someplace peaceful that is totally unknowable to us. He reminded us that the mind/soul is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. It can be changed, but not destroyed. So I tend to think that yes, there is a place where all consciousness resides. I also kind of tend to think that reincarnation is possible, although not required. I no longer have any fear of death, although I must admit I don't look forward to the days/hours/minutes that could occur shortly before getting there. Manner of death could be a real bummer. I have heard and read of children who are raised in fundamentalist and strict religions who suffer a lot, worrying that they are not "good enough" to get into heaven. Worrying that they don't pray hard enough or "believe strongly enough" or some other "not enough" that they have been taught. I think that is child abuse and the Mormon church is guilty, and so are many others--JWs, many Pentecostal sects, FLDS, etc.

If it turns out that there is nothing after death in this plane, okay. That's not the worst thing. I used to think so, but I no longer do. I mean, after all, if there isn't--we'll never know it. We'll just be gone, and will not be sitting around moaning, "Oh dear, there is nothing! I just don't exist!" :) I try to let everyone I love know every day that I love them, and try to help others when I can, and try to do things that make me feel good and not bad and make others feel good, especially kids and animals and people I think of as maybe being one of "the forgotten". IMO, that's all any of us can do. I am happier now, in my brand of atheism, than I ever was back in my years as a Christian believer.