My TBM ex is always sweet and nice when he wants something.
He started pushing me about a expensive class trip he wants to send our daughter on.

She is not even asking to go on this trip! The ex sprung the information on me last weekend and states that we need to make the decision ASAP to put the deposit down. He will "take care of everything". I said I need official information about the group that is running the trip.

I look at the info and spoke to other Moms. The group is not for educational purposes and not very well supervised. My daughter does not even know other students that are interested or going. I do not know all the reasons why the ex is pushing this trip, but I looking at the whole picture and I am listening to my instincts. I tell the ex that I am not comfortable with the trip organization.

His tone changes and he starts getting aggressive with me. He tells me that I am punishing our daughter, denying her the opportunity, and being unfair to her since her brother got to do a trip in his Senior year. (True, but an entirely different situation which I will get to in a minute). The ex goes on about how our daughter gets straight A's and is a good kid.

I reply, "If you want to discuss my concerns, I will. But if you want to bully me, debate with me and call me a bad parent, I am not available.

He replies, "I am not debating with you. You are wrong and I am right and because...."

I stop him. "You obviously do not know what debate means. She has those great A's because she is a great student. She is a great student and a great kid because she lives with a parent who actually PARENTS her, disciplines her, watches out for her and makes her stick to her goals. You are welcome. Now stop implying that she will be crushed because she will not get this "reward" you think she needs".

He replies, "Well when she is 18, she can do what ever she wants since you want to deny her opportunities."

I snapped. "Yes, she can and will. Until then, unless YOU get a job, get a home, pay all the bills and take up ALL the responsibly and put ALL your life on hold to be a parent and raise YOUR kids instead of being a Disneyland Dad, THEN you can make all the choices! Until then F*CK YOU!"

I am very soft spoken and I have not been that pushed to the edge in years, but after all his abuse over the years and the cycle of being nice to get what he wants...I was done.

Yep, evil ex-wife. That's me.

RMM

When I'm grown up, I want to be just like you! Your response was all the more forceful because it is a rare occurrence. You have some lucky kids.

Love the "Disneyland Dad" comment. I hadn't heard that. It really packs a lot of meaning. Reading between the lines it looks like another opportunity for dad to be the "fun parent" if he can get the trip pushed through. I can't stand when I see either parent doing the "fun parent" thing as a substitute for just being the parent.


Straight to the point strong talk is a great tool and totally necessary sometimes. A little controlled anger has a way of bringing the truth front and center and can be a good way to level the playing field. I hope you made your ex think a little about co-parenting whether you are divorced or not.

Good luck.

Excellent. :o)

Too many people think the appropriate response is to be nice. This is not always so.

It may be too late and it may not even work, but, depending on their age and maturity, I think educational trips can be a great thing for teens 17-19 years old. They are on the verge of moving out and living on their own. Such a trip could be a small supervised trip toward independence.

That said, you have every right to have input into the idea of a trip, as does your daughter.

You know your husband best, so you could decide if he would be receptive of this:

"You know, I thought it over, and I like the idea of an educational trip for out daughter. Let's ask our daughter if she is interested. If she is interested, find out where she would like to go and learn, art, culture, history, science, etc..

"If she is interested and does have a good idea of where and what she wants out of such a trip, let's get together and find a well structured, supervised and trustworthy educational trip to send her on that we all 3 can agree on"

The first person I asked about the trip was my daughter. She seemed unsure about it herself. As you mentioned, such trips are great for students based on maturity. Our son got to go on a trip similar to this one, but it was a performance group with other students that he grew up with and most of the parents I had known for years.

I do not believe my daughter is ready to go on a trip across the country with a bunch of strangers.

The ex has nearly unlimited open visitation with our daughter, thought our final court agreement was far more limited. He dropped out of our children's lives for about a year or so. His own family turned on him and told him he was being a poor parent!

He turned around and started making more effort to spend with the kids, but to this day refuses to pay any child support. I am in the process of getting a new lawyer to pursue that.

There are a few other factors going on here:
The ex is a sub teacher at my daughters school. I know educators get a discount for going, so I am suspicious this is a way for him to get a cheap/free trip out of the deal as well.

The ex is a narcissist and never does anything that doesn't benefit HIM too.

He has made very poor parenting choices, because life has been and always will be about HIM. He does not notice things going on in anyone's life but his own, and he still sees his children more as property. They are his companions when his friends are unavailable. He has broken plans with them countless times if something should come up that he wants to do for himself.

He has put both children in physical danger. My son has a life-long disability now because of allowing him to do something on a trip and told him to LIE about it. The action resulted in an accident. Since then, if something is dangerous/questionable I do put my foot down.

The ex wanted to take our daughter to a mid-week concert 2 hours away on a school night. She would need to miss a lot of school (she is in advanced courses, so even a set back for a day can throw her off). On top of that, the ex has fallen asleep at the wheel many times, and nearly driven off the road!

I said no. I have physical custody of her and get to make those decisions. He gave UP his right willingly in court and told the judge years ago, that I was the better, more stable parent.

I have had it with his childish ways of having a temper tantrum when he does not get his way. I am at a point where I want to dissolve ALL contact with him instead of through a lawyer.

Sometimes the answer is NOT to be "nice".

Yep, if you know these types, you know that there is always more to the story.

I have to agree, he'sprobably not advocating for your daughter.

Which is why I qualified what I said so much.

Like how you gave up your right to ask for child support.

Recovered Molly Mo Wrote:
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> The group is not for educational purposes and not very well supervised.

It sounds like you made a good call. I like the way that you stood up for yourself. Your daughter will have other opportunities. She can do a study abroad in college if she wishes.

The best thing that happened today, is that the group trip is in an area where I have friends that have invited me to visit them. My friend has been asking me for ages to come visit. She also has a son my daughter's age.

I told my daughter about the opportunity about being guests in my friends home and doing things as a small group in the same site.

My daughter says, "Oh that sounds like a lot more fun!"

Score one for Mom. I will be chatting up my friend today.

RMM

Perfect!

Score one for Mom? Seriously? Who is the narcissist again? Raising your kids is a game to you?

I totally despise bullying in any form.

Bullying tends to cause me to lean toward violent physical retaliation.


Hurrah for you!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job of setting clear boundaries. He is learning he cannot bamboozle you.

These old terms of Magic Mountain mother and Disneyland Dad have been part of the language of divorce for a very long time.

Personally, in my work with child custody cases, I never encouraged them.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
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> These old terms of Magic Mountain mother and
> Disneyland Dad have been part of the language of
> divorce for a very long time.
>
> Personally, in my work with child custody cases, I
> never encouraged them.

True...and wise policy for a pro.

But for us lay people it's helpful to have a catchy term. "Basil" is so much easier to say than "Ocimum basilicum".

Why didn't you lead the conversation with the fact that your daughter didn't want to go since that was your main concern. Sounds like you were picking a fight.

way to go and you know what he asked for it.

A dad trying to do something nice for his daughter and he gets a public shaming where he can't defend himself. Yep, he asked for it alright. Pathetic.

so how is he going to feel shame?

Frisson, you seem to be the one trying to dish out shame. (It's not working).

Clearly you are not and have not lived with or dealt with these types of people, if so you can not comprehend what it has taken others years of life experience to see and understand who really know what type of dishonest people these narcissists are.

They can fool everyone for years because you only scratch the surface of what they really are, only those who have lived behind the scenes and have experienced them for years know what they truly are.

Think about it, why would Mr. Good Dad, call his ex and tell her he already signed their daughter up for a trip before he even spoke to it about with the custodial parent? Why is he so determined that she go on a trip that she has expressed no interest in going on to her mother? Why put the money down before talking to ex or daughter?

I'll tell you why, to put them on the spot and to manipulate the situation, because he thinks for everyone, makes decisions for everyone and manipulates the situation for his own ends. IF you had ever dealt with a narcissist you would know that once all the facts are revealed that there is something in it for him, either he wants to feel like the hero or he wants to go on this trip. But he's not telling you his motives because the truth might make him look bad.

"She is not even asking to go on this trip! The ex sprung the information on me last weekend and states that we need to make the decision ASAP to put the deposit down. He will "take care of everything"."

The same guy who drops out of his children's lives for a year and refuses to pay child support, is suddenly so concerned that his daughter go on this particular trip.

I was married to a narcissistic sociopath for nearly 20 years. When my former spouse sucked every last scrap from me emotionally and financially, they left me in the most cruel way. Because of the experience I was suicidal because not only had I lost my family, but I was convinced I was the crazy one from the years of gaslighting. I know about the lying, splitting, push/pulling, shaming, distortion campaigns, deflections, point keeping, verbal abuse/swearing, selfishness, and so on. The OP and their follow ups are the same kind of posts that my former spouse would post online about me, so forgive me for being a little bit passionate. The guy maybe a total zero, he might not. We have no way of knowing. I was responding to the posts from what I know. I have learned to be suspect of anyone trying to portray their situation in 100% good light for them and 100% bad for the other person. BTW I couldn't find where the OP said the trip was already paid for or that the daughter was already signed up.

I love this conversation! Recovered Molly Mo is learning to set boundries. We are supporting her, because that's why we're here. To help each other out!

NO ONE has responded to frisson's unhelpful, aggressive written attack.

Bravo RFM community! High Five!

Tell the jerk he hasn't the right to be so bossy... since he isn't paying any child support!

"A dad trying to do something nice for his daughter and he gets a public shaming where he can't defend himself. Yep, he asked for it alright. Pathetic."

If he wanted to do something nice for his daughter, Child support would be a good start. Commitment to putting her first. Not being a slacker for a year. Not making up excuses for not seeing them when he said he would, etc, etc.

He is more then welcome to come here and defend himself.

Dollars to doughnuts he wants to go on this trip himself and is using the daughter to get there. I understand this jerk only too well, and I wonder who he thinks he is fooling. You did the right thing to tell him about himself.

I'm glad that guy is and EX.

Opps,----- hummm,------ There simply is NONE! End of story and discussion!

that you are not 100000000% secure in the other adults planning to supervise. That is the deal breaker period. You don't risk the safety of your kids - PERIOD. Look at all the problems the Boy Scouts have had. It doesn't matter if your daughter wants to go. It doesn't matter if he wants her to go. He has already shown he is not the most dependable duck on the block so you can't count on him taking care of her. Unless YOU can go the answer is NO. DO tell him that you will be watching for a good opportunity for her to have a nice trip and when the two of you find something she is really interested in and you feel comfortable with he will be expected to pay HALF ;).

Knowing people like this, I would still keep an eye out for his angle, it may be important in the future. Was there maybe a woman going he wanted to be out of town with? Bottom line, the whole thing is odd.

The "right now" aspect is troubling too. They do that when they don't want you to have time to research. Any time that happens to me I back way up. Order in the next ten minutes! Be among the first 20 callers! To me, that equals DON'T BUY. A "hard sell" means one thing - DON'T BUY IT!

Thanks Susan and all other encouragers to stand up for my girl:)

Thought I would add in some facts since that seems to be an "issue" with frisson.

* My ex TBM spouse was also a narcissistic sociopath. He once told our marriage therapist that he would rather be a widow than divorced. He had no clue why I suddenly turned into a pile of soggy tears and why the counselor directed him to move out and me change the locks.

My ex also drained me dry in every way and abandoned his family and told me it was "to teach me a lesson". I was in therapy, on medication for YEARS and considered it a major success to get up and get dressed on a regular basis.

He told my family that I was nuts and abusive. He told all our church friends and his family that I called the cops on him and had him removed from the home. I asked for the imaginary police report and he stopped. After our divorce, he still referred to me as his WIFE for at least 2 years!

While I am deeply compassionate and sorry that these events happened to you, this posting was not about you. It was about MY life.

You ARE forgiven. I hope you will realize that many people will share things that will trigger your past. You WILL have PTSD type reactions. Hopefully, it will get better over time.

I have never portrayed my parenting at 100% good and I believe you have overreacted, assumed, and are coloring the page in my story with your own favorite color.

My ex is not 100% bad, as I mentioned he stepped out of our children's lives and when he wanted back, I actually encouraged more visitation, not less. I did not let my personal feelings get in the way of my parenting choices, as I want my kids to have a relationship with their Father. One has decided not to (He is now legally an adult) and the youngest freely decides when she wants to spend time with her Father.

I have only said no to events over time that are not SAFE for the kids. I believe I mentioned in a previous posting, that both children had unsafe outings with their Father where one now has PERMENANT health damage and was encouraged to LIE to me about what happened. My youngest came home with a broken leg one day.

I did say earlier that my daughter's Father said he would take care of all the financial obligations. I do not believe I said she was already signed up, however, the ex did start to fill out all the paperwork for her and I would need to give my final permission as custodial parent. All of the information was pushed on me in a matter of days. Because I did not give permission, he started to tell me I was a bad parent and denying my child a valuable opportunity.

Again, I deeply sympathize with your own experience, but this one is not about you.

Best Wishes,
RMM