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Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 03:11AM

Carl Sagan, in his book "The Demon Haunted World" stated:

"At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers"


In the thread "Please don't misquote Carl Sagan" see ( http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1383077 ), Henry Bemis stated:

"Note, however, that as for Sagan's points (1) and (2) there was scientific funding, and experimentation. See the above cited source from Princeton University. (Robert G. Jahn, Consciousness and the Source of Reality: The PEAR Odyssey (2011) (Note: "PEAR" stands for "Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research") The Princeton researchers (scientists) found the phenomena to be valid. Other researchers, academic and independent, have made similar findings. So, the conclusion that these points have proven invalid (as Sagan assumed they would) is now know to be false. And for whatever reason one might steadfastly deny it, for example, because it does not fit with one's post Mormon worldview, it does not change that fact."

To which I replied "Henry, if you seriously believe the accuracy of PEAR's research, you might want to have a VERY good explanation for the criticisms of it on its wikipedia page:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_Engineering_Anomalies_Research_Lab "

To which Henry replied "I am well aware of the criticisms of PEAR, and have considered them, as have the PEAR researchers in depth. It is not unusual, or unexpected, that there would be push-back against any kind of paranormal experimentation. But, again, the conclusions of the PEAR researchers are consistent with the conclusions of other researchers on the paranormal by competent scientists. You cannot sweep all such research findings under the rug of "faulty methodogical" or "misuse of statistics." In most cases these are merely catch phrases for the simple statement, "I don't believe it.""

I didn't want to embarrass Henry by posting all of the wikipedia criticisms, but he has forced my hand:
- It has been noted that a single test subject (presumed to be a member of PEAR’s staff) participated in 15% of PEAR’s trials, and was responsible for half of the total observed effect.
- PEAR’s results have been criticized for deficient reproducibility. In one instance two German organizations failed to reproduce PEAR’s results, while PEAR similarly failed to reproduce their own results. An attempt by York University’s Stan Jeffers also failed to replicate PEAR’s results.
- PEAR’s activities have also been criticized for their lack of scientific rigor, poor methodology, and misuse of statistics.

WTF, a member of staff was also a participant? Where are all the "other researchers, academic and independent" who "have made similar findings"? Fear not, Henry has reviewed the evidence and has all the answers. Hopefully he will share them with us.

In the mean time, I don't see the point of investigating the claim any further. Whether you call it common sense, or "because it does not fit with one's post Mormon worldview", I call BS and assert that humans can not affect random number generators in computers.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 03:13AM

Random Numbers... are too important to be left to chance!

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 09:57AM

I remember a few years back some dude and his brother in law figured out the randomness algorithm of a big money slot machine, they each won several million dollars. They must have been psychic

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Posted by: Titanic Survivor ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 04:42PM

No way in hell they figured out the algorithm. Unless it was the dumbest, most transparent algorithm in recent history.

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Posted by: Bradley ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 01:53PM

Pseudo-random number generators are often notoriously simple. The trick is to guess the algorithm they're using. A person who knows the software library used to write the gaming app would have a good head start. Some games also have bugs that can be exploited if you don't mind spending time in jail after being caught.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 10:51AM

This doesn't really need further comment. As you state, I acknowledged the criticism of PEAR. (And by the way, my familiarity of such criticism does not come from a casual reading of Wikipedia; I have taken the time to actually read it, and the responses to it!)

Moreover, I noted that there were several other similar studies besides PEAR that support the PEAR findings.

Now, having said that, like you, I do not have the time, the inclination, or the competence to personally reconstruct the PEAR research to make a final determination of whether the experiments of PEAR are valid or not; either in whole or in part. So, I read what PEAR has to say, and read the critics, in order to try, the best I can, to come to an objective conclusion.

My experience, based upon such research, is that critics come out of the woodwork against studies like this. The complaints are generally predictable: (1) faulty methodology; and/or (2) faulty use of statistics. And, of course, claims of failure of replication. I have come to the conclusion that notwithstanding the critics, and considering other similar research there is some validity to the PEAR findings, even if some of the tests were faulty. Am I sure about this? No. I wasn't there. But, if one wants to consider this issue, they might start with the PEAR website.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/experiments.htm

My statement, "So, the conclusion that these points have proven invalid (as Sagan assumed they would) is now known to be false" remains correct in my view. Sagan's assumption that his points would be proven false upon "serious study" has not occurred, but have been confirmed by scientific, peer-reviewed, research.

Also, I stand behind my statement:

"It is not unusual, or unexpected, that there would be push-back against any kind of paranormal experimentation. But, again, the conclusions of the PEAR researchers are consistent with the conclusions of other researchers on the paranormal by competent scientists. You cannot sweep all such research findings under the rug of "faulty methodogical" or "misuse of statistics." In most cases these are merely catch phrases for the simple statement, "I don't believe it.""

This is all I have to say about this subject. I respect your right to disagree. However, I would be more impressed if you had personally read the PEAR research you criticize, and cite authorities other than wikipedia for your conclusions.

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 01:42PM

> Moreover, I noted that there were several other
> similar studies besides PEAR that support the PEAR
> findings.
>

You didn't note them specifically in that thread. You listed a few books, but said nothing about them.

Which similar studies are you referring to?

Have any of these studies been duplicated anywhere? If so, by whom and where?

The entire basis of the scientific method relies on rigorous testing of theories. Scientists get things wrong all the time. Researchers at the University of Utah famously got cold fusion completely wrong, in just one example.

Unfortunately, most research into paranormal which I've read about has serious flaws in the methodology.

As the quote goes, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2014 01:51PM by outsider.

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 11:25AM

Random number generators on computers aren't actually random. You will be able to generate a fantastically long string of 'random' numbers for sure but then the entire string will start to repeat itself from the beginning again. That is, these programs mimic random numbers. With sufficient knowledge of the sequence and the algorithms to generate a random number from it you can predict what next number is going to be. This is ofcourse not likely to happen ever though so it's mostly just nitpicking. For all practical purposes these numbers can be viewed as random.

But one idea for a natural explanation for the phenomenon might still be a mathematical one instead of a supernatural one. It's well known that the human intuition about chance is highly flawed, and flawed in a particular way not just wrong. Suppose that this bias can be translated into statistics, and it can thus be mathematically proven that the not quite random predictions of a human is therefore just slightly more accurate than random luck would have it.

Not only would this debunk the otherworldliness of the finding, it would explain why we evolved this erronius bias in the first place. Intuition tells me it shouldn't matter but nobody has to my knowledge crunched the numbers. And mathemathics have proven intuition wrong a number of times through the ages.

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Posted by: Exdrymo ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 01:03PM

>>>Random number generators on computers aren't actually random. You will be able to generate a fantastically long string of 'random' numbers for sure but then the entire string will start to repeat itself from the beginning again.<<<


I haven't looked into it in depth, but I suspect my ipod nano's shuffle mode has only a few patterns.

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Posted by: cupcakelicker (sober) ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 02:28PM

A few computers have RNGs based on radioactive decay. Those are presumably the ones they're talking about. Most of the time, it's pseudo-RNG.

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Posted by: Bradley ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 07:33PM

Quantum tunneling noise, not radioactive decay. It's a physical effect that plagues chip designers (in the form of leakage current) but it's pretty cheap and easy to amplify and digitize so I would expect modern chipsets to have a diode noise source to supply random numbers.

Pseudorandom numbers are not very good for cryptography, so there's a good reason to generate truly random numbers.

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 07:40PM

You know what. That is frickin' cool! Too bad the RNG is never specified when you buy electronics. Inquiring minds wants to know...

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 01:07PM

El ~ Oh ~ El, GNPE

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Posted by: SoCalNevermo ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 02:40PM

I have been out of the programming world for several years now but a favorite for random number generating many years ago was to use digits extracted from the current date and time (not in order but in a defined pattern).

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: September 26, 2014 03:49PM


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Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 09:16AM

Just to be clear, the claim is not that humans can affect pseudo-random numbers as generated by personal computers. PEAR used a specific piece of hardware that generates white noise, which is then converted to a one or a zero with equal probability, an electronic equivalent of flipping a coin. To influence a pseudo-random number would be against the laws of mathematics and that would be a crazy claim.

Instead, other crazy claims are being made:
- Men and women affect the random numbers differently
- Combined effort of groups creates a bigger effect
- Distance from the machine (000's of miles) produced the same results
- Effort before or after the random numbers are generated returned the same results!!?!?!?!?!

(sourced from http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1997-correlations-random-binary-sequences-12-year-review.pdf )

If the PEAR research is to be believed, they have discovered time travel!!!!!! What amazing research! They have also confirmed the mormon doctrine that men and women are cosmically different :(

For some reason there is very little discussion of how exactly human effort alters the random number generator. Is it thought that the white noise source is being altered? If so then wouldn't the effect be just as good if the source had a consistent pattern? Why all the smoke and mirrors with the random component of the equipment? Why not directly measure the effect of human effort on sensitive detectors?

The answer is that the researchers are not interested in a materialistic explanation. They used "four different categories of random devices" all with the same results. How could different types of random number generators (detectors really) yield the same results? The exception of course is pseudo-random numbers as established above. Clearly the researchers believe that the essential component is physical randomness and not sensitive detection. The effect was even seen in falling polystyrene spheres, raising hopes that you can make those stubborn lotto numbers match your ticket!

Right now would be a good time to open that briefcase of yours Henry!

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 10:36AM

And yet oddly enough, no other institution has been able to duplicate this.

One wonders why. It couldn't possibly be because of bad methodology. I'm sure that it's another conspiracy, right?

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 10:40AM

outsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And yet oddly enough, no other institution has
> been able to duplicate this.
>


Out of curiosity, what institutions have tried to duplicate PEAR? Could you link to them?

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 12:24PM

Human Wrote:

>
> Out of curiosity, what institutions have tried to
> duplicate PEAR? Could you link to them?

From the wiki entry:

PEAR’s results have been criticized for deficient reproducibility. In one instance two German organizations failed to reproduce PEAR’s results, while PEAR similarly failed to reproduce their own results.[10] An attempt by York University’s Stan Jeffers also failed to replicate PEAR’s results.[9] PEAR’s activities have also been criticized for their lack of scientific rigor, poor methodology, and misuse of statistics.[9][11][12]

It's pretty much self-evident that their methodology is sh!t. Were they able to find anything, it would have been able to be duplicated.

Here's a damning article:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/pear_proposition_fact_or_fallacy/

"In their book Margins of Reality Jahn and Dunne raise this question: “Is modern science, in the name of rigor and objectivity, arbitrarily excluding essential factors from its purview?” Although the question is couched in general terms, the intent is to raise the issue as to whether the claims of the parapsychological community are dismissed out of hand by mainstream science unjustifiably. This paper argues that in the light of the difficulties in replication (even by the PEAR group itself), the lack of anything approaching a theoretical basis for the claims made, and, perhaps most damaging, the published behavior of the baseline data of the PEAR group which by their own criteria indicate nonrandom behavior of the device that they claim is random, then the answer to the question raised has to be no. There are reasonable and rational grounds for questioning these claims. Despite the best efforts of the PEAR group over a twenty-five-year period, their impact on mainstream science has been negligible. The PEAR group might argue that this is due to the biased and blinkered mentality of mainstream scientists. I would argue that it is due to the lack of compelling evidence."

Scientists get things wrong all the time.

Many of the younger people here will not know about the cold fusion fiasco in which Utah invested something like $4.5 million for research which was based on seemingly fantastic results in the lab. Actual results! From a world-famous scientist.

It was bad methodology and other issues, and ultimately died because it couldn't be reproduced.

From wiki:

"Cold fusion is a hypothetical type of nuclear reaction that would occur at, or near, room temperature, compared with temperatures in the millions of degrees that are required for "hot" fusion, which takes place naturally within stars. There is currently no accepted theoretical model which would allow cold fusion to occur.

In 1989 Martin Fleischmann (then one of the world's leading electrochemists) and Stanley Pons reported that their apparatus had produced anomalous heat ("excess heat"), of a magnitude they asserted would defy explanation except in terms of nuclear processes.[1] They further reported measuring small amounts of nuclear reaction byproducts, including neutrons and tritium.[2] The small tabletop experiment involved electrolysis of heavy water on the surface of a palladium (Pd) electrode.[3] The reported results received wide media attention,[3] and raised hopes of a cheap and abundant source of energy.[4]

Many scientists tried to replicate the experiment with the few details available. Hopes fell with the large number of negative replications, the withdrawal of many positive replications, the discovery of flaws and sources of experimental error in the original experiment, and finally the discovery that Fleischmann and Pons had not actually detected nuclear reaction byproducts.[5] By late 1989, most scientists considered cold fusion claims dead,[6][7] and cold fusion subsequently gained a reputation as pathological science.[8][9] In 1989, a review panel organized by the United States Department of Energy (DOE) found that the evidence for the discovery of a new nuclear process was not persuasive enough to start a special program, but was "sympathetic toward modest support" for experiments "within the present funding system." A second DOE review, convened in 2004 to look at new research, reached conclusions similar to the first.[10] Support within the then-present funding system did not occur."

Many lay people do not understand the process of the scientific method. Henry Bemis seems to fall into this. His argument is that there were numbers which could not be accounted for by normal methods, so it must be the paranormal.

This is simply utter foolishness, although admittedly much less embarrassing for him than for the State of Utah in it's over enthusiasm for cold fusion.

PEAR's research is trash because they couldn't even replicate it, which makes it worthless.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 12:58PM

outsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Human Wrote:
>
> >
> > Out of curiosity, what institutions have tried
> to
> > duplicate PEAR? Could you link to them?
>
> From the wiki entry:
>
> PEAR’s results have been criticized for
> deficient reproducibility. In one instance two
> German organizations failed to reproduce PEAR’s
> results, while PEAR similarly failed to reproduce
> their own results.[10] An attempt by York
> University’s Stan Jeffers also failed to
> replicate PEAR’s results.[9] PEAR’s activities
> have also been criticized for their lack of
> scientific rigor, poor methodology, and misuse of
> statistics.[9][11][12]
>
> It's pretty much self-evident that their
> methodology is sh!t. Were they able to find
> anything, it would have been able to be
> duplicated.
>



As far as I know, the CERN discovery of the Higgs boson hasn't been replicated, either, and yet they're smoking metaphorical cigars and talking Nobels. Also, the OPERA neutrino anomaly was rather swiftly put off as a problem due to a "faulty cable", which reminded me a little too much of the knee-jerk blame-game after the '03 black out, at one time being seriously blamed on an errant Buckeye woodchuck. Anyway...


From your link I learn that the experimenter used different methodology, so his results aren't an attempt at reproducibility. However, it also mentions that PEAR asked two German Universities (unnamed) to reproduce their results and claims they failed. I guess if I want to know more than that I have to chase down their link-less attribution (Jahn et al. 2000).

I have no opinion about PEAR except a suspicion, from what I gathered at the time, that it wasn't enough on its own to make any real conclusions.

If you know more about the reproducibility attempts from the two German Universities, please tell (sans herrings like Cold Fusion, if you could).

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 01:34PM

If you are going to label my discussion of cold fusion a herring, then why the f@ck you are bringing up CERN?

Since it appears that you are unable to use google, here you are:

Furthermore, Stanley Jeffers, a physicist at York University, Ontario, has repeated the Jahn experiments but with chance results (Alcock 2003: 135-152). (See "Physics and Claims for Anomalous Effects Related to Consciousness" in Alcock et al. 2003. Abstract.) And Jahn et al. failed to replicate the PEAR results in experiments done in Germany (See "Mind/Machine Interaction Consortium: PortREG Replication Experiments," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 14, No. 4, pp. 499–555, 2000).

Paranormal is whacky science, and the fact that they themselves could not duplicate their research shows they're nuts.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 01:42PM

outsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
(See "Mind/Machine Interaction Consortium:
> PortREG Replication Experiments," Journal of
> Scientific Exploration, Vol. 14, No. 4, pp.
> 499–555, 2000).
>

This is no longer on the server, which is why I asked.

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 11:18PM

Human Wrote:

>
> This is no longer on the server, which is why I
> asked.

No. Bullsh!t. This is what you first asked:

"Out of curiosity, what institutions have tried to duplicate PEAR? Could you link to them?"

After I tracked that down, you come up with :

"From your link I learn that the experimenter used different methodology, so his results aren't an attempt at reproducibility. However, it also mentions that PEAR asked two German Universities (unnamed) to reproduce their results and claims they failed. I guess if I want to know more than that I have to chase down their link-less attribution (Jahn et al. 2000).

I have no opinion about PEAR except a suspicion, from what I gathered at the time, that it wasn't enough on its own to make any real conclusions.

If you know more about the reproducibility attempts from the two German Universities, please tell (sans herrings like Cold Fusion, if you could)."

More BS. Why do you wish for me to not discuss my main point, that science gets many things wrong, hence PEARS is very likely to have been getting things wrong?

As a counterpoint(?) you bring up CERN, the single most expensive scientific facility on Earth, and wonder why research there is worthy of possible Nobel prizes. The experimental results are carefully accounted for, teams of the world's best scientists are vetting the process. The difference is between little league and the MBL, and you want to equate them?

The issue of getting Nobel awards for research from CERN is actually a better question to ask people who believe in voodoo powers. If the paranormal were shown to actually be true, there would be such an incredible revolution that it would dominate the Nobel prizes for the next 100 years. And yet. . . where is this evidence?

You say:

"From your link I learn that the experimenter used different methodology, so his results aren't an attempt at reproducibility."

This is very poor reading comprehension.

Read it again:

"I have conducted several experiments in collaboration with others in this field (Jeffers 2003). One characteristic of the methodology employed in experiments in which I have been involved is that for every experiment conducted in which a human has consciously tried to bias the outcome, another experiment has been conducted immediately following the first when the human participant is instructed to ignore the apparatus. Our criterion for significance is thus derived by comparing the two sets of experiments. This is not the methodology of the PEAR group, which chooses to only occasionally run a calibration test of the degree of randomness of their apparatus. We contend, although Dobyns (2000) has disputed our claim, that our methodology is scientifically more sound."

Let me help you understand that this means.

First, they ran the same test. This was a an attempt at confirmation. (Confirmation means when you try to get the same results.)

Although in this very paragraph he does not specifically state that the tests failed to show the same result, he does in other places.

They then added a second test, in which the subject stood in front of the device and didn't attempt the change the score. In the field of actually science, in contrast to voodoo and magic, this is called adding a control. It allows them to account for another possibility.

so, yes, they did attempt to duplicate the result and the attempt was negative.

Although I'm not your personal researcher, I did spend the three minutes on google to find the sources you cry about because they aren't linked to that very article.:

You say

Your reply:

> This is no longer on the server, which is why I
> asked.

Bullshit.

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Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 09:32PM

There were two independent teams with separate detection devices that discovered the Higgs boson, ATLAS and CMS, see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS_experiment and http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Muon_Solenoid

By the way, I am pretty sure that the experiments at the LHC would be able to detect the effects that PEAR found. A team of scientists hoping to find a Higgs boson should increase the chances of the highly random event happening by at least one in ten thousand. I am sure they would be willing to share their data for analysis.

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Posted by: Bradley ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 02:19PM

"much less embarrassing for him than for the State of Utah in it's over enthusiasm for cold fusion"

It was less the State of Utah than BYU's own Steven Jones. Pons and Fleischman wanted to do more rigorous research before publishing their results but Jones dragged them into a huge PR mess.

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Posted by: outsider ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 11:20PM

Regardless of who was the one pushing, I content that they should have been a hell of a lot more careful.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 11:02AM

Yeah, it's a conspiracy among scientists to ignore anything that challenges materialist science, even though a white noise generator is material.

FAIR suffers under the same type of conspiratorial persecution.

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Posted by: rationalist01 ( )
Date: September 27, 2014 12:07PM

I've played around with digital circuits a lot. It's true that they have a hard time generating true randomness. I built several devices back in the 70's that were called "pseudo-random" because the number strings always eventually repeat.

The best way to generate better randomness is to hook your machine to something that exhibits chaotic behavior. One group used several lava lamps with photo-detectors. It worked, but was pretty slow.

For true randomness, maybe we could find a way to use various theologies and ancient books of scripture to generate our seed values.

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