Many posters agreed that raising a child in the mormon church is child abuse.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1377191,1377305#msg-1377305

I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion.

So, if we're not arguing that one form or degree of child abuse is worse than another, than is raising a child in the mormon church equal to all other forms of child abuse?

I think one of the first distinctions we can make here is that raising a kid as a Mormon is not a form of child abuse that can be prosecuted. Other forms of child abuse are much more direct and can much more easily be detected and punished.

Because of that I think that it is a less than useful form of child abuse to address. Certainly raising a child as a Mormon is technically child abuse, but it can easily be broken down into more useful and detectable terms.

Bishops interviews are a good example of this. Asking a 14 year old girl about her masturbation habits is child abuse and should be pursued and challenged. If a parent allowed this to happen I would most definitely call that parent out. I wouldn't accuse them of child abuse because they are raising their child Mormon because that is vague enough that it is likely to be ignored. I would, however, tell them that they are condoning child abuse because they support the actions of grown men who are actively damaging their child in a psychological and sexual way.

I'm sure that there are other distinctions that can be made as well between the larger concept of raising a child as a Mormon and other, more specific, forms of abuse.

I think I prefer at this time to keep the assignment of abuse on the community of Mormonism and that the most vulnerable victims of the abuse are children as they are without any power and can be under the heavy influence of parents that should know better, but have either chosen to or unable to know better.

Within Mormon families there can be more universally accepted child abuse, and perhaps that is where raising a child in. Mormonism can be seen as abusive.

To what extent do Mormon parents impose Mormonism on their children. To the extent of withdrawing physical and emotional support and inserting physical and emotional abuse. Is that on the religion or the parents? Ultimately the parents.

Thus we see why it is important for a parent to take the hit and break the BIC to BIC cycle of abuse. Their life for their childs.

But not all kids in it are necessarily abused.

Please don't raise your children in Mormonism. Love them too much for that.

Since I am male, I won't speak for females raised in the Mormon cult.

However, to tell boys that masturbation is immoral, evil, sinful, & etc. is psychologically abusive. Especially since Mormons teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.

Raising children who are gay in the Mormon Cult is absolutely abusive.

Since parents don't know what the orientation of their children will be, to raise them in the cult is to play Russian Roulette with their lives.

+1

People who are in an immersive religion would considere NOT raising a child in that faith to be a form of abuse.

I am sure there are people who see raising a child in any religion is a form of abuse.

Would teaching a child things like creationism or flat earth or Holocaust denial be a form of abuse? To some, yes.

I, for one, don't think it is the government's place to tell me or anyone else how to raise a child.

Yes, I know that creates some gray areas, but I just don't think any government should endorse or oppose specific religious teachings.

Is something child abuse, or is it not, doesn't have anything to do with the government. Enforcement--like by the government--isn't the same as an opinion about the thing itself.

However, there will come a time when certain practices, even if religious in origin, and I'm thinking specifically of teaching gay children to loathe themselves unto death, will be determined abusive and prevented by the government. For example, I can imagine child protective services removing a gay child from his parents if their religion causes them to be unable to accept his sexual orientation and he attempts suicide. The religious views of the parents, and their right to impose their religion on their son, will have hit its limit, and will be deemed by the government to be a threat to the health and safety of the child.

If the religious views of the parent (or anyone else) are ever limited by the government, we will cease to be a free people.

I will not deny it is possible. I am saying it will mark a major milestone in the loss of personal freedoms.

That is, by its very definition, the government telling someone how to raise a child.

Umm. Welcome to the real world, non-free person. The government tells you how you may and may not raise your child all the time. How do you feel about blood transfusions? Because that's been answered long ago: if you religiously object to your child's getting a necessary transfusion, the government will interfere in your right to raise your child as you see religiously fit. And, seriously, expect to see a time when you will not be free to torture your gay child to death with your religious imaginings concerning God's gender-identity.

Attack straw men much?

Action and belief are two different things.

A JW is free to believe the blood transfusion is evil and to teach his/her children that.

Denying such a transfusion is a different thing.

If a Mormon parent wants to teach his/her children that members of the LGBT community are worthy of death, that is teach belief. Such a parent would not be able to kill his/her child upon learning the child is LGBT.

Religious beliefs are and should be protected. Actions (real actions, not just expressing beliefs) that violate the law should not be tolerated in the name of religion.

The distinction between belief and action is not as clear-cut as you'd like to make it. If Mormon parents taught their LGBT child that LGBT people deserve to die, and that caused the LGBT child to wish death upon him or herself as a form of "justice," I will expect the State to get involved in order to preserve the life of the child. The religious rights of the parents to raise the child as they see fit will be curtailed.

Then that is where we will disagree.

While admitting such a state as you envision is possible, I like to think that there are enough people who value freedom to prevent it from becomming a reality.

It is already a reality.

I am a criminal prosecutor. CPS will remove will remove a child if their life, safety, health and well-being are at risk in their home. Parents don't get a pass because that risk is religiously based.

I don't think so.

Have you ever removed a child from a home simply because of a parent's belief? Not actions but beliefs.

I know some people have mixed faith marriages and decisions to make about their kids, but I would be pretty ticked off if my parents took me to the LDS Church, indoctrinated me in it as a child, and all the while they knew it wasn't true.

I can't be mad at my mom for taking me to a church she still believes in. I would be furious if I knew that she let them brainwash me when she didn't believe herself.

Yes, please NOMs please take the hit.

It is incumbent upon you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 04:52AM by gentlestrength.

Raising a child as a Mormon is clearly not as bad as other forms of child abuse. Things like sexual abuse, severely beating and injuring a child, or neglecting a child so that it suffers from malnutrition, dehydration, exposure to the elements, or lack of medical treatment.

We do not like Mormonism, but we need to maintain a sense of proportion here.

I'm reserving judgment until I see the results of some studies. What, exactly, is the life-long effect of the persistent self-esteem problems and suicidal ideation caused by having been taught virulent perfectionism? How does failing to live up to the expectations of a "savior" effect people over time? How bad is the post traumatic stress disorder brought about by some religious beliefs and practices? How traumatized are some children by having been terrorized with the threat of eternal damnation? I don't know. And I don't know how that compares with other forms of abuse. It might be worse, and more widespread, than we think.

Those things definitely affect people over time. This is something we see here every day. But, I'd wager that beatings and hunger would cause many worse problems over time. They also cause short term problems such as death.

You are right though, I'd hold complete judgment until more evidence could be seen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2014 07:04PM by snb.

Words have meaning. In the case of 'abuse,' both a legal and colloquial one.

In the legal sense, raising your children in the LDS church isn't abuse.

In the colloquial sense, abuse generally means 'in a way other than intended.' As in, I abuse prescription drugs when I take too much of them. I abuse my car when I hoon it around a parking lot and do donuts.

In terms of outcome, there are plenty of normal, functional, LDS adults out there. So in the colloquial sense, raising kids LDS does not rise to the level of abuse.

Are there parents within the LDS religion that abuse their kids? Most definitely. But raising somebody LDS -- or JW, or SDA, or Orthodox Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever else -- doesn't rise to abuse within the normal meaning of the word.

I believe it's child abuse because I was raised a Mormon and taught to hate everything about myself.

I wouldn't call it equal to all abuse.

I will say that the abuse I was (still am being) put through would still have been absolutely horrible even if I hadn't of been raised in the cult. Being raised in the cult was abusive, but for me was just another component to the abuse that was going on.

However, the worst part is that my abusive non-father ****left me in the cult, while he went inactive.**** He left & I wasn't allowed to leave, when I really wanted to, but was too scared to say so. That really fucked me up big time.

If that were the case 80% of the planet's kids are in bigger trouble than spoiled, rotten, well fed little shits we (Mormons) raising...

How can you even entertain that thought, without thinking of Africa, China & india...
I spent most of my life in Utah...
And I was born in Middle East....

Where is Tal to complain about this? Or is this argument only repugnant when a famous atheist makes it?

I might be able to answer for him: "child abuse can't be graded - only a creep would consider the possibility of various degrees."

This is one of those topics that seems to be beaten like the cliche'd dead horse.

Child abuse? Other than our distaste for the LDS mode of religion, how many here can truly say you were abused by your parents? A religious or philisopihical disagreement does not consist of child abuse.

What is child abuse? For those of you who have experienced it, you know what it is. Mental or physical, after you leave, it doesn't go away. I see parents that are so inept they cannot put food on the table. Meth is more important. Fathers, uncles, brothers, who have "fallen in love" with a ten year old girl, and abused her. Kids who don't get clean clothes. Thrown through closet doors, whipped with an iron cord, shot with pellet guns, beat with fishing rods, told they are worthless pieces of scheist, etc., that is abuse.

If raising a kid Mormon is abusive, then so is raising a youngster Catholic, Lutheran, Islamic, Buddhist, Atheist, the list is endless.

Since omniscient Tal has decided that I'm a devout follower of our Prophet and Seer Richard Dawkins on this appearantly I must concede that all religious indoctrination is worse than any other forms of childhood abuse. Feel free to come in and misquote me on that Tal. And while you're at it, tell me what other tweets I must have followed. Since I don't follow tweets at all any wild guess you make will be equally valid.