My personal experiences support the fact that Utah has the highest rate of tranquilizer abuse, among women.

Is Vicodan addictive? Is this one of the frequently abused drugs? My sister-in-law offered to give me some for my toothache. She told me, "It's easy to get. Your dentist will write you a prescription, and that way, you'll always have it handy. I take it for bursitis in my shoulder, headaches, cramps, and so I can sleep at night."

She named 4 names of neighborhood Mormon women who take Vicodin all the time. She said, "Everyone takes it."

Is Ambien an addictive substance? My RS pres neighbor, plus my former VT, plus the neighbor across the street, plus my best Mormon friend and almost her entire Mormon book club take Ambien every night.

I have several particularly energetic, do-it-all Mormon SAHM relatives, who constantly amaze everyone in all the busywork they can accomplish. For example, they have 8-10 children, get up at 5:00AM to jog, cook a huge family dinner every night, live in a perfectly clean McMansion, have a presidency position in the RS or the YW, are active in the PTA, sports team mother, give all kinds of church parties at their houses, maintain a cabin (cleaning, packing, cooking), look perfect, and never miss a hair salon appointment. The husbands have high church callings. Six have been mission presidents. It is exhausting just to witness all this. Still, I wanted to know how they did it all, so I asked. ALL of the women drink around 6+ glasses of diet cola every day. They say they can't live without it. One cousin takes several Exedrin (has caffeine in it). She is having heart problems, but gets right back up and continues her grueling pace, and brags about how she doesn't follow the doctor's orders. All these women feel they are blessed by God, but they must overwork themselves to pay their "debt" to God. "God will give me the strength." is their mantra. The Mormon church must judge them to be worthy of their good fortune and wealth. They must also earn the approval of their priesthood husbands.

These women are always bragging or complaining--but perhaps complaining about how busy and overworked they are is another way of bragging. I know they like to make others feel like slackers in comparison. Mormon life is a competition, for them. None of these women are very intellectual or talented or light-hearted. With all their wealth, family, health, and good looks, they should be the happiest people on earth, but I think the Mormon church takes a lot of that away.

I am not in their world. I have fewer children, am divorced and single. (A Mormon should be married, and have the priesthood in the home.) I'm a good mother, and my children have turned out great! (But they are not Mormons, anymore.) I have been the sole support of my family, and am happy with my career. (But a Mormon mother should not work outside the home.) All that yard work, playing with my children, occasional skiing, hiking, bicycling, walking the dog, is as healthy as jogging every day. (Scandalous to waste time playing, when there is work to do.) I do real charity work (instead of Mormon work). I love art and music. My accomplishments are the very ones that Mormons belittle. Away from their criticism, I now live my life with pride and happiness.

I don't have to try to be that perfect Mormon mother, anymore. I now know that this goal so impossible and frustrating, that I would probably have to take uppers and downers just to get through each day. I used to drink two mugs of coffee a week--both on Sunday morning--just to get me to church. I had to take a nap after church, to make the depression go away, before cooking our big Sunday dinner. Sometimes, I would crawl into bed with my Sunday clothes still on, and pull the covers over my head. When I left the cult, the depression magically dissappeared.

What are your thoughts and experiences about Mormon women and drugs? Depression? Competition?

Vicodin won't be as easy for the ladies to get now. It was reclassed from Schedule III to Schedule II in August.

This means one prescription at a time, with no refills to that written prescription.

Pharm Asst,
From what I understand, a patient has to actually visit the dr for a Vicodin refill (no refills over the phone, correct? Also, Vicodin scripts are in triplicate (one copy to the Feds, correct?

Correct, Zelph. No more phone refills. Regarding triplicate, my state never did triplicate. I do know that New York State did that as far back as the 1970s.

For a couple of years now, every time a patient fills a script for a controlled substance, regardless of schedule class, the DEA is notified by the pharmacy via the net. This was to eliminate doctor shopping.

..webpage still lists the regular Vicodin/acetaminophen as Sch III. Is the new formulation in question devoid of Tylenol or other compounding? That would explain the reclassification to Sch II, right?

Those Utah docs are mighty loose with their Vicodin scripts. It's hard to get out here. You need a legit reason, such as recovering from surgery.

Vicodin can be very addictive for some and should be treated with fear and respect.

I used Ambien daily for 2 years and got off it quite easily.

Vicodin put Brett Farve in rehab for 46 days. The withdrawal caused a seizure that almost killed him.

From Deseret News in 2006:

PROVO — The LDS Church shouldn't be blamed for Utah's reputation as the runaway leader in antidepressant use, says a Brigham Young University professor.

And membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints clearly has a positive influence on mental health, according to Daniel K. Judd's review of 540 studies on religion and mental health.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/640196840/Why-high-antidepressant-use-in-Utah.html?pg=all

Related - the heightened risk for perfectionists

The authors document how being exposed to relentless demands to be perfect, a concept they refer to as socially prescribed perfectionism, is linked consistently with hopelessness and suicide. Other key themes discussed are: how perfectionistic self-presentation and self-concealment can lead to suicides that occur without warning; and how perfectionists often come up with thorough and precise suicide plans.

“We summarize data showing consistent links between perfectionism and hopelessness and discuss the need for an individualized approach that recognizes the heightened risk for perfectionists,” Flett says adding, “They also tend to experience hopelessness, psychological pain, life stress, overgeneralization, and a form of emotional perfectionism that restricts the willingness to disclose suicidal urges and intentions.”

http://news.yorku.ca/2014/09/25/perfectionism-is-a-bigger-than-perceived-risk-factor-in-suicide-york-u-psychology-expert/

suicide break down by state: https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

Those are interesting articles, Son of Abraham.

I agree that, in women especially, perfectionism is a trigger to depression and suicide. Perhaps perfectionists have a greater completion rate in their perfect suicides. Virtually all of the suicides in my ex-husband's family and in my two friends, had to do with too much perfectionism. They appeared so perfect in their appearance and even their behavior, that no one anticipated suicide, depression, or even sadness, at the time.

I disagree with the BYU man, who thinks that perfectionism is separate from Mormonism. Mormonism is perfectionism, IMO, and the two can't be separated.

I don't agree with Dr. Kalm, either. As far as my personal experiences go, Mormons, in general, don't believe in psychology, and they are ashamed to seek out psychotherapy. They are hopeless, and don't think anything can help. They do like their drugs, and perhaps they are more likely to seek out help, in order to get their drugs.

Yes, goldenrule, the vicodin ladies acted more lazy, liked to be waited on and treated like princesses. Some of them were musical performers, whom I accompanied, and they would act like prima-donnas, and sometimes would take valium to relax. Afterwards, they would take vicodin and go to bed for a day or two. I always understood the pressure, because I performed, too. Church, in general, would drain me enough to spend an hour in bed every sunday, even without any drugs. Music was an obsession with some of these ladies, and they would perform, even though it was doing them harm (and upsetting their families). I tried to make it fun, but--yes, they were unrelenting perfectionists.

My go-getter, marathon-running relatives were all on caffeine--literally all of them!

I have a brother that practices medicine in the west catering to the Mormon population. He was the number one prescriber of anti-depressants in his area. The drug reps from the major pharmaceuticals keep track of such things.

In my own experience, all the sedatives increase the risk for suicide. I knew a woman who was addicted to Xanax and Vicodin. She jumped out of a hotel window, committing suicide.

These meds really impair your judgement when taken chronically. The Xanax, valium like meds have recently been linked to an increase in dementia as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29127726

Often on RfM, I see meds misclassified. Just so you know, in layman's parlance:

Vicodin...a painkiller
Ambien...a sleeping pill

Neither are tranquilizers or anti-depressants.

Another misconception seems to be that anti-depressants are narcotic. They are not controlled substances, as painkillers, sleeping pills and tranquilizers are. Anti-depressants don't "get you high."

Now I promise I will shut up.

You don't have to shut up. Reading comments from someone who knows what they are talking about is very refreshing.

Thank you, pharmacist, and everyone. I wanted to know these things.

That's me talking from behind my self-imposed gag. :)

Glad I could be of some help, Zelph and ExMoBandB.



P.S. If anyone is interested in the DEA link to the Vicodin rescheduling, here it is:

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2014/fr0822.htm


Same one the pharmacy uses.

Ambien (Zolpidem) is a sleeping pill recognized world-wide. It is non-narcotic and not habit-forming, although a person can become dependent on it to get so sleep just like a person who becomes dependent on milk of magnesia to take a poop. I have work anxiety (for another discussion), and often take Ambien to fall asleep so I can wake up the next day. No hang overs or anything. (In fact, I metabolize it much too quickly.)

Vicodin is really addictive to those who are prone to it. I've had them prescribed a couple of times. They work great on me, and I can really trust them to ease physical pain. Some people (DW) get nausea when taking them, and just throw them right back up. Once taken, you can't drive or anything. I have no idea how people get strung out on these. While they really take away the pain for me, I don't like the unpleasant feeling you get.

Vicadin is an opiate and can be very addictive.

Big correction here:

Ambien is one of the most dangerous drugs still available. Parasomnia episodes well documented. Abuse and potential for spade pendency well documented. Avoid it like the plague. In my opinion the worst thing there is on the market and I am a physician of sorts.

Non-addictive, non-narcotic. If you abuse it, and I suppose some do, it could be dangerous. So could iced tea, I suppose. And then it depends on weight and metabolism. DW sometimes takes a half dose and she sleeps through the night. I get 6 hours' sleep tops on a whole pill and have no hangover from it. I weigh close to 200 lbs.

If people abuse Abien to the extent that they sleep-walk, sleep-eat, and sleep-drive, that's their problem. Some people get hooked on antihistamine nasal spray, too. Two decades ago nasal spray was the new "addiction" in America. Where is it now?

Wrong. It is absolutely addictive. And dangerous. I have enough experience as a prosecutor with people doing crazy things on Ambien and with family members who have struggled with their addictions to it. Equating Ambien to ice tea and nasal spray is just stupid. You can't kill someone while driving on an over dose of nasal spray or iced tea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 11:20PM by goldenrule.

when you take the pill, you have to GO TO BED. Which my son learned not to do. He was using it after his divorce. I would sleep on the floor in his bedroom because he overdosed on it twice. He would stay up all night after taking Ambien/zolpidem and act really bizarre.

And, yes, he overdosed twice on Ambien and didn't realize he had done so. He took 18 one night and, yes, ended up in the ER and had an overnight stay in the hospital.

Ambien really does some odd things in you don't take it properly or if you already have any parasomnias. My friend's wife would clean the kitchen in her sleep. People have been reported to butter cigarettes and eat them while sleeping under the influence of Ambien. Then there was a woman who slept-walk down a street and had sex with a homeless man while on Ambien. It's not a drug to mess with.

Correct. My uncle is an ER physician and sees this Ambien scenario often unfortunately.

Whatever works for you and your doctor. And don't put other peoples lives at risk.
It seems the pendulum for treating pain goes from one extreme to another. A lot of people are in chronic pain and that number will go up as people age.
I had to jump through hoops every month to get pain med for my cancer ridden terminal parent and it was ridiculous. My opinion on pain meds have changed since that experience.

The drug of choice among the LDS SAHM my age here in AZ is Adderrall hands down. Ambien is very popular too. I had a friend tell me one time all she needs to say is that she's so busy and exhausted with her calling, and kids and hubby and her LDS dr will prescribe it no questions asked. And bonus it totally keeps you skinny! (We are very looks conscious here in the hot desert, especially Mormon ladies).

Ugh sickening.

Adderall affects the brain in the same way speed does, so no wonder it's popular with Mo moms pulled in all directions.

I have to wonder what kind of future side effects that will bring.

It is a combo of amphetamine and dextroamphetamine.

I've heard that Ritalin is basically speed too and children who took it long-term develop kidney problems later in life.

Right now I'm reading an article about how Adderall became America's fave form of speed. I've heard it's a popular party and study drug on campuses nationwide.

ETA: I had a problem with meth well over a decade ago and I can attest that it does give you an invincible, can-do anything attitude. I'm going to venture a guess this is why the Mo moms dig it so much. Meth usage is a dirty little secret among Mo moms in Utah County, but it a doc prescribes if to you, it's fine.

Here's the article if anyone is interested: http://www.hightimes.com/read/adderall-americas-favorite-amphetamine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 08:51PM by Itzpapalotl.

Those ladies aren't on Vicodin. With all that you described they are doing, they're on uppers. Most likely Adderrall. You can't function like that on Vicodin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 08:22PM by goldenrule.

Right, Goldenrule. The hyper go-getter marathon relatives are on caffeine.

The vicodin ladies liked to languish, be waited-on, and treated like princesses. My SIL and the others were musical performers, whom I accompanied on the piano. They would sometimes take valium for "performance anxiety". It was only after a performance that they would take vicodin, and go to bed. These feelings are real, because I had them, too, but called it "stage fright," and would do breathing exercises. After church, whether I performed or not, I would go to bed for an hour, without drugs. Stress is very real.

So far, so good with these people. They are doing just fine, as far as anyone can see. I hear from some of the husbands and children that the women aren't easy to live with. One son thinks his mother is "crazy."

Amphetamines were popular in the BYU women's dorms, when I was there. Women could easily get them prescribed as "diet pills." This was before anyone knew they were so harmful. Diet pills gave me the jitters and insomnia. Pain killers make me nauseated. Maybe that's why I'm never a "piller of the church."

I'm an ExMo, a marathon runner, and I do NOT drink caffeine hardly ever. Maybe about 6 glasses of iced tea a year, that's about it.


Some of the ladies that I regularly run with will have a cup of coffee before every run, but that is about it. Others almost never drink caffeine. Meanwhile, alot of the ladies I work with will have a cup of coffee at the beginning of each work day -- and NONE of them are Morgbots.


You can have an active life, and even run marathons without being addicted to caffeine. Likewise, you can be an idle, lazy, slothen person and be addicted to caffeine.