It doesn't mention a damn thing about BY's blood atonement, the Reformation, how the church felt anything the "gentiles" had was theres to take by any means necessary. There was no accountability for WHY this happened.

And for heaven's sakes, why is it bloody 2014 before ANYTHING is mentioned publically about it? It's because of us, the ones who left with our intergrity pushing these points over and over.

If I was a tbm reading this for the first time, I think my entire world view would have exploded as I'd have never heard a word about this until today.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre has actually been mentioned by the church before. I think even in the Ensign.

That's a good one. Of course they wouldn't say Brigham said go do it, but the apology is nice.
Um, now blacks?

And gays?

And part member families?

And former missionaries with lifelong health issues?

...and single members of all ages?

...and victims of sexual abuse whose innocence would still be intact had Mormon leadership not protected the sexual predator and allowed him to go forward molesting others (like the current president of the Oakland temple, Richard Hunter)

...and families of dead boy scouts who thought their children were safe, not knowing that some LDS scout leaders are NOT volunteers, rather men "called" to scout leadership because they are not allowed to teach gospel classes.

...and families heartbroken by being excluded from temple sealings of their loved ones.

...and former members persecuted through shunning (which is enforced by temple recommend question "do you associate with or sympathize with apostates?")

...and all of us who have lost our loved ones due to suicide/murder fostered by Mormon teachings that masturbation, porn, consuming alcohol or smoking cigarettes make you unworthy.

etc.

Anagrammy

Those pesky local leaders! They never get anything right. It's always their fault!

If I was a TBM just finding out about this, I'd be shocked. It is like finding out that your parents were murderers or something like that.

I will never forget the day I first heard about MMM.

My husband was reading "Desert Saints" and then told me about MMM.

I went ballistic, accusing him of reading anti-mormon book and then said, "I don't believe it! The Church would never do something like that! There is no way they would have people murdered!!! I just don't believe it."

Well that turned out to be the first major crack in my wondering about this church I was a member of. One day when my best TBM friend and I were out riding our bikes I said, "What do you know about MMM?"

I almost fell off my bike when she said, "Oh that's a very sad part of our history."

I couldn't speak. Finally I said, "So it's true?!!!"

I wasn't ready to start questioning more so tucked it away in a box and kept "putting my shoulder to the wheel" until the box started to spill over and we were on our way out of the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 09:54AM by Helen.

What, that it?

That is bloody IT!??

*shakes head*

Yes, I am afraid that that is as close to an explanation as we are going to get.

What isn't conveniently mentioned is that these travellers were massacred while meeting with the Mormons under a white flag of truce. Despicable!

...but if someone has the time to post the real information about the event and the severe suffering those people went through...their bodies left scattered to be eaten by wolves and their bones to lie and bake in the desert heat after they had been stripped of their clothes...their property stolen...

I'd appreciate it. G'night.

I've worked a lot of night shifts in my life... Thanks Lori, I just clicked on the "Newsroom" link, and I read this bit of malarkey...

>Because the perpetrators were members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church has made great efforts to heal the wounds caused by the massacre. In 1999, then-President Gordon B. Hinckley joined with descendants of the victims to dedicate a monument at the site. Since then, the Church has worked with descendant groups to maintain the monument and surrounding property and is committed to improving and preserving the area in the future.

In 1999, during the monument reconstruction a backhoe uncovered the remains of 28 victims of the massacre, and the abbreviated forensic investigation indicated most of the victims were shot, execution style, at close range.

The LDS Church tried to sit on the story for a few weeks, but it broke in the St. George "Spectrum," and was later carried by the Salt Lake Tribune in an article written by Christopher Smith.

My sources tell me the editors of the Trib were "read the riot act" by Hinckley et al, and within a few years the church orchestrated the takeover of that newspaper by Dean Singleton and Media News.

>Also, in an effort to bring to light the details of the event, Latter-day Saint leaders opened the Church’s archives to the authors of the 2007 book Massacre at Mountain Meadows. Speaking at the sesquicentennial of the massacre on 11 September 2007, President Henry B. Eyring said:

>"Although they are Church employees, the authors have retained full editorial control and have drawn their own conclusions from the exhaustive body of historical material they assembled. They have been given full access to all relevant materials held by the Church. Two of the significant conclusions they have reached are (1) that the message conveying the will and intent of Brigham Young not to interfere with the immigrants arrived too late, and (2) that the responsibility for the massacre lies with local leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the regions near Mountain Meadows who also held civic and military positions and with members of the Church acting under their direction.

I know of three individuals here on RFM, myself, "rt," and JWtheinquizzinator who've read the Turley/Walker/Leonard church financed "reply" to Will Bagley's "Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre."

Will and I estimate the church spent at least ten million dollars to underwrite that undertaking, and the laughable thing is it only goes as far as the actual event, and then leaves the rest for a planned "Part II."

Will also notes--in a private e-mail to me--that the source for their work came from a church investigation long afterwards, and that it consisted of asking the murderers themselves about their roles in the slaughter.

That'll do for a start; I'm sending the information to Bagley (I expect he may have it already), and I'll stop in his office in the near future.

If you want to, feel free to e-mail me with questions; my RFM addy is SL_Cabbie at yahoo dot com... That will help me put some information out that newcomers can benefit from.

The LDS Church, unless it wants to posthumously excommunicate Brigham Young, has to maintain his innocence, and they chose to "draw the line" by claiming that William Dame--whom John D. Lee identifies as giving the final order--was not among the guilty, that Lee and Higbee were the "local leaders."

My question has always been, regarding Haslam's ride, is why didn't they wait until they had word from Salt Lake before decoying the Fancher/Baker members from their fortified positions? The only answer I can conceive of is they were already certain of their orders.

wait - they inadvertantly dug up a bunch of the bodies while building a monument? talk about adding insult to injury

This is a reprint of the original Christopher Smith article that got everyone at #47 E. South Temple in high dugeon.

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/morm_01.htm

I knew very little about MMM before this story, and it was the impetus for my beginning my research and finding this site.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will and I estimate the church spent at least ten
> million dollars to underwrite that undertaking,
> and the laughable thing is it only goes as far as
> the actual event, and then leaves the rest for a
> planned "Part II."

Yeah, and I believe I prophesied even before part 1 was published that part 2 would never see the light of day.

I'll drop you a line, Cabbie.

(From Kristy)

If you're looking for official church sources, there's plenty of primary source documentation in journals and BY's discourses about crazy-mob-inflammatory blood atonement/gentile rhetoric that would give anyone serious goosebumps, and when you time his sermons with MMM timing it's makes a whole lot of sense why everyone was so riled up in Southern Utah. I'm *definitely* not a conspiracy theorist, and consider myself pretty level-headed researcher as a psychologist, so when I poured through the primary data (as I recommend you doing so for peace of mind) believe me the evidence is pretty damning, not just for local leaders, but those local leaders were only obeying their leaders (including someone in the First Presidency for sure, who was cited in a journal as wanting the wagon train to get attacked and telling Southern Utah leaders that as he was passing through the area days before MMM). But there is no conclusive proof BY himself ordered the massacre. But wow, read his blood atonement stuff, how all the leaders and members were riled up about PP Pratt getting killed in Arkansas (fun fact: the husband of one of his wives killed him), seeing it as a martyrdom like Josephs, leaders spreading and not quelling rumors that members of the Arkansas wagon train killed PPP, and then the horrible documentation about how BY himself said the "Indians will do what they want with the train" (i.e. wink wink nudge nudge let's manipulate the Indians to do it so they can take the blame for what we want to do). It's just really, really ugly.

(after asking themselves "WTFreak?"), will then ask themselves "HOW the freak?" and do their own research, with hopefully the following results:

1. They will understand the context and motivations surrounding the horrific crime, and

2. They'll ask themselves why their church waited so long to publish the information, but why the essay STILL left out the most important--and damning--details.

3. They do more and more research, realize what's going on, and then bail on the mind-sucking cult!

Most church historians opine that the MMM was retaliation for the murder of Parley P. Pratt near Van Buren, Arkansas. Pratt was involved at the time in an affair with Eleanor Jane McLean. Her estranged husband didn't like it, so he murdered Pratt on 5/13/1857.

The MMM victims were all from Arkansas.

Pratt's murder certainly figures into it; Brigham Young was faced with a hysterical Eleanor Mclean Pratt in Salt Lake crying out for vengeance, and providentially, the Fancher/Baker train appeared in Great Salt Lake City within two weeks.

There are other factors, however, and I think it's important to note the wealth of the emigrants' train; it may have been the largest and richest ever to attempt the Overland Migration circa 1842-1869. They had a huge herd of cattle and a large number of thoroughbred horses.

The territory being on "war footing" and still simmering from the fires of the Reformation are also factors. Brigham Young did not want to give up being territorial governor, and he claimed "he would no longer hold the Indians in check" and MMM was probably a demonstration of his power.

Just a little nitpicking on Pratt's murderer, Hector Mclean: He'd actually allowed his wife to leave, but he'd shipped her children to New Orleans. Eleanor traveled there, with Parley not far off, moving under an assumed name (because of a murder warrant from Missouri; he was still an escaped prisoner). Eleanor feigned a "return to sanity," then fled with her children but was captured (in Houston, I believe). Mclean used his connections as a government employee to track Pratt down, had him arrested in Arksansas, and then murdered him across the border in Indian Territory in present-day Oklahoma. He was never punished for his crime.

Bagley considers this book his and David Bigler's "most complete account" of the circumstances:

http://www.oupress.com/ECommerce/Book/Detail/1527/the%20mormon%20rebellion

Thanks Cabbie, LoriC, et al -

Went to the Nauvoo "City of Joseph" hagiographic musical/North Korean Kim Family-level whitewash. Parley Pratt briefly depicted as ... jeez, I dunno ... a combination of Ward Cleaver and Jesus' nicer brother.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 05:04AM by tenaciousd.

You've gotta be kidding! The 5 paragraphs in the 7th grade Utah history book gives more details than this! My guess is the essays are coming forth as promised, but are now strategically vague because Tommy is going to court in one month!

Yeah this isn't so much a real essay as a cut & paste of a couple of statements that have already been made. On the other hand, it's nice to have attributions for a change.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 11:45AM by yeasterbunny.

5 paragraphs? When I was a kid in the 60's it was one short paragraph.

...titled "The Restored Church" had lots more information as well---including the fact that Brigham Young was charged with treason against the US government, which fact most TBMs of today are ignorant of.

For me some of the most damning evidence that the non-local LDS leadership, Brigam Young, was involved is that children under age 8, the Mormon age of accountability were spared.

Seems like a very Mormony thing to do. Especially under their Blood Atonement value system.

This to me is also an example of Mormon institutional evil--the Mormon church refuses to acknowledge the role it plays in how its membership behaves as if a cult fraud somehow could control individuals with "free agency".

I liken this instance to A Few Good Men, Code Reds, and fear of being accountable to Mormon leadership as opposed to personal and US values. Those men would have been horrified to cross, Brigham Young and his "adopted" son John D. Lee. Of course Brigham Young ordered the massacre, no one in Utah would be so bold to have done something like that with him in charge without his blessing. To have done so would have meant certain death.

I don't believe this is one of the new essays. I have a program that checks the lds.org/topics site every day for new additions. This article has been present since I began checking on 1/17.

I couldn't have imagined that this was an essay. I wrote longer essays in 4th grade. This item is not an essay, but a Reader's Digest filler piece

It's on web.archive.org, showing early 2013 as updates. I don't think it's new.

Wait. Wait. Wait.

Somebody posted that it is a NEW essay. And over a dozen people posted a comment critical of the NEW essay. It MUST be a new essay.

I'm going to ignore the facts that indicate that it's NOT a new essay and just go with the "facts" I like better.

This approach works for exmos as well as MoMos.

It doesn't make a difference to me wether or not it is NEW.. it is a statement by the church on the church website, and it SUCKS!

Good enough for me,

Becca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't make a difference to me wether or not
> it is NEW.. it is a statement by the church on the
> church website, and it SUCKS!
>
> Good enough for me,

Thank you for missing the point.

You're welcome.

;-)

If someone has missed your point why assume it's their fault?

Maybe if you explain your point a little clearer.. Like, I'm a five year old..

Smack me in the face with it, so it simply can't be missed..
And maybe realise that not everybody here is native english speaker even though they may write english quite well...

"17 children under the age six".

Everyone knows it was eight, the age of Mormon accountability.

Interrogatories propounded to Norman W. Leod by Mr. Rice
NORMAN McLEOD, Post Chaplain Camp Douglas, Utah Territory.
Sworn to and subscribed the 15th of June, 1866.

Question. Aside from polygamy, what moral or immoral precepts and practices does the Mormon system enjoin ? What is the general character of the Mormons as regards industry, frugality, temperance, and sobriety ?


Answer. It justifies deception, theft, robbery, when the Gentiles are the victims. It fosters hatred towards all governments and all religions outside of Utah and of the Mormon religion. It devotes its enemies and opposers to per-
dition. It is divested of every element of the divine religion. It teaches the doctrine of the shedding of blood for the remission of sins, virtually justifying assassination. I beg leave under this head to submit the tract entitled "Brig-
ham's Doctrines," (No. 1.) As to the general character of the Mormons, who have for years drank in its vitiating and demoralizing teachings, I beg leave to quote from Brigham Young. He remarked, in the tabernacle, November 9, 1856 : " I have many a time on this stand dared the world to produce as mean devils as we can. We can beat them at anything. We have the greatest and and smoothest liars in the world, the cunniugest and most adroit thieves, and every other shade of character you can mention. We can pick out elders in Israel right here, who can beat the world at gambling ; who can handle the cards ; can cut and shuffle them with the smartest rogue on the face of God's footstool. I can produce elders here who can shave their smartest shavers and take their money from them. We can beat the world at any game." The above remarks were reported by George D. Walt, a Mormon, the church reporter, and published in the Deseret News.