Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I am not an ardent supporter of the OW movement because I hold the view the church is false, a scam from its very foundation. Why then would anyone, let alone women, wish to remain members? I understand Kate Kelly believes in the church, but desires ordination for women.
Maybe her argument should be "why are some women given the priesthood and others denied it?" Without this put to them the brethren merely say it is "God's will" that the priesthood is only for men.
However, they are at the same time conferring the priesthood on women in their secret ordinance "The Second Anointing".
Whereas, in the endowment, women are blessed to become "Queens and Priestesses" in the Second Anointing they are actually ordained Queens and Priestesses for TIME and all eternity.
After this priesthood was conferred on my wife, during our Second Anointing (see here http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm )
an apostle (Elder Ballard) directed her to wash my feet and pronounce a blessing upon me by laying her hands on my head.
We are all familiar with female temple workers performing priesthood ordinances in the temple, but my wife was given added authority and note it was for TIME and all eternity, it is for the now.
So, are the brethren discriminating among the sisters of the church? Of course they are, just as they discriminated within males until 1978. The ultimate discrimination, of course, is the Second Anointing. Given to relatively few members and kept secret from the rest.
Maybe Kate's defence could be, I only want for all 'worthy' sisters that which is conferred on a selective secret 'elite'.
Kate, as an 'Anointed One', I would gladly ordain you. However it means absolutely nothing as the church is false and none of its leadwrs have any 'divine' authority. You may just as well get a 'free' ordination certificate offered by many websites.
Below are excerpts from a poster on the NOM board about the matter of second anointing and women and the priesthood.
Best wishes Kate,
Tom Phillips
” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory anointing and the second anointing, Heber C. Kimball explained: “You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens and priestesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet, and you have got to get it by being faithful.” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Thus Emma Smith began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise to make the Relief Society “a kingdom of priests.” She was anointed to become a “queen and priestess” in the initiatory ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness of those offices by the second anointing. First counselor Sidney Rigdon later commented on this event: “Emma was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.”
As newly sustained president of the Anointed Quorum, Joseph administered the initiatory ordinances and priesthood endowment to his wife in an upper room of the Nauvoo Mansion. The record of “Meetings of the Anointed Quorum” shows that at this same meeting, Joseph and Emma also became the first couple to receive the “second anointing” or “fullness of the priesthood.” By this ceremony they were each “anointed & ordained to the highest & holiest order of the priesthood.” Later church historians in Utah deleted Emma's name from the 1843 description of the prophet's “second Anointing of the Highest & Holiest order.”
However, church historians were more direct about the second anointing for Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith. Apostle and Church Historian Wilford Woodruff specifically called the ordinance a “second anointing,” and the History of the Church describes the ordinance as: “My brother Hyrum and his wife were blessed, ordained and anointed.”
Even in the nineteenth century church publications usually called the second anointing by such euphemisms as “fulness of the priesthood,” “higher ordinances,” “higher blessings,” or “second blessings.” However, LDS publications in both the nineteenth and twentieth centuries sometimes identified the ordinance by its actual name: second anointing.
Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory anointing and the second anointing, Heber C. Kimball explained: “You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens and priestesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet, and you have got to get it by being faithful.” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Thus Emma Smith began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise to make the Relief Society “a kingdom of priests.” She was anointed to become a “queen and priestess” in the initiatory ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness of those offices by the second anointing. First counselor Sidney Rigdon later commented on this event: “Emma was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.”
And this also quoted from D. Michael Quinn
by D. Michael Quinn, LDS Historian and Author
For 150 years Mormon women have performed sacred ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Every person who has received the LDS temple endowment knows that women perform for other women the “initiatory ordinances” of washing and anointing. Fewer know that LDS women also performed ordinances of healing from the 1840s until the 1940s. Yet every Mormon knows that men who perform temple ordinances and healing ordinances must have the Melchizedek priesthood. Women are no exception.
Two weeks after he organized the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith announced his intention to confer priesthood on women. He told them on 30 March 1842 that “the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood” and that he was “going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day—as in Paul's day.” In printing the original minutes of the prophet's talk after his death, the official History of the Church omitted Joseph's first use of the word “Society” and changed the second “Society” to “Church.” Those two alterations changed the entire meaning of his statement. More recently an LDS general authority removed even these diminished statements from a display in the LDS Museum of Church History and Art which commemorated the sesquicentennial of the Relief Society.
On 28 April 1842 the prophet returned to this subject. He told the women that “the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them that they may be able to detect everything false, as well as to the Elders.” The keys “to detect everything false” referred to the signs and tokens used in the “true order of prayer,” still practiced in LDS temples. Then Joseph Smith said, “I now turn the key to you in the name of God, and this society shall rejoice, and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time. . . .” For nineteenth-century LDS women, Joseph's words were prophecy and inspiration to advance spiritually, intellectually, socially, professionally, and politically.
Mormon women did not request priesthood—Joseph Smith would soon confer it on them as part of the restoration of the gospel. His private journal, called the Book of the Law of the Lord, specified the priesthood promise in his instructions to the women on 28 April 1842: “gave a lecture on the pries[t]hood shewing [sic] how the Sisters would come in possession of the privileges & blessings & gifts of the priesthood & that the signs should follow them. such as healing the sick casting out devils &c. & that they might attain unto these blessings. by a virtuous life & conversation & diligence in keeping all the commandments.” Joseph clearly intended that Mormon women in 1842 understand their healings were to be “gifts of the priesthood,” not simply ministrations of faith.
The conferral of priesthood on individual women occurred through what Joseph Smith and associates called the “Holy Order” or “Anointed Quorum” (men and women who had received the priesthood endowment). On 4 May 1842, six days after his remarks to the Relief Society, Joseph introduced nine men to the endowment. The following year, on 28 July 1843, Presiding Patriarch Hyrum Smith, an original member of the Holy Order, blessed Leonora Cannon Taylor: “You shall be blesst [sic] with your portion of the Priesthood which belongeth to you, that you may be set apart for your Anointing and your induement [endowment].”
Maybe her argument should be "why are some women given the priesthood and others denied it?" Without this put to them the brethren merely say it is "God's will" that the priesthood is only for men.
However, they are at the same time conferring the priesthood on women in their secret ordinance "The Second Anointing".
Whereas, in the endowment, women are blessed to become "Queens and Priestesses" in the Second Anointing they are actually ordained Queens and Priestesses for TIME and all eternity.
After this priesthood was conferred on my wife, during our Second Anointing (see here http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm )
an apostle (Elder Ballard) directed her to wash my feet and pronounce a blessing upon me by laying her hands on my head.
We are all familiar with female temple workers performing priesthood ordinances in the temple, but my wife was given added authority and note it was for TIME and all eternity, it is for the now.
So, are the brethren discriminating among the sisters of the church? Of course they are, just as they discriminated within males until 1978. The ultimate discrimination, of course, is the Second Anointing. Given to relatively few members and kept secret from the rest.
Maybe Kate's defence could be, I only want for all 'worthy' sisters that which is conferred on a selective secret 'elite'.
Kate, as an 'Anointed One', I would gladly ordain you. However it means absolutely nothing as the church is false and none of its leadwrs have any 'divine' authority. You may just as well get a 'free' ordination certificate offered by many websites.
Below are excerpts from a poster on the NOM board about the matter of second anointing and women and the priesthood.
Best wishes Kate,
Tom Phillips
” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory anointing and the second anointing, Heber C. Kimball explained: “You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens and priestesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet, and you have got to get it by being faithful.” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Thus Emma Smith began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise to make the Relief Society “a kingdom of priests.” She was anointed to become a “queen and priestess” in the initiatory ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness of those offices by the second anointing. First counselor Sidney Rigdon later commented on this event: “Emma was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.”
As newly sustained president of the Anointed Quorum, Joseph administered the initiatory ordinances and priesthood endowment to his wife in an upper room of the Nauvoo Mansion. The record of “Meetings of the Anointed Quorum” shows that at this same meeting, Joseph and Emma also became the first couple to receive the “second anointing” or “fullness of the priesthood.” By this ceremony they were each “anointed & ordained to the highest & holiest order of the priesthood.” Later church historians in Utah deleted Emma's name from the 1843 description of the prophet's “second Anointing of the Highest & Holiest order.”
However, church historians were more direct about the second anointing for Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith. Apostle and Church Historian Wilford Woodruff specifically called the ordinance a “second anointing,” and the History of the Church describes the ordinance as: “My brother Hyrum and his wife were blessed, ordained and anointed.”
Even in the nineteenth century church publications usually called the second anointing by such euphemisms as “fulness of the priesthood,” “higher ordinances,” “higher blessings,” or “second blessings.” However, LDS publications in both the nineteenth and twentieth centuries sometimes identified the ordinance by its actual name: second anointing.
Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory anointing and the second anointing, Heber C. Kimball explained: “You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens and priestesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet, and you have got to get it by being faithful.” In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained “King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.”
Thus Emma Smith began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise to make the Relief Society “a kingdom of priests.” She was anointed to become a “queen and priestess” in the initiatory ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness of those offices by the second anointing. First counselor Sidney Rigdon later commented on this event: “Emma was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.”
And this also quoted from D. Michael Quinn
by D. Michael Quinn, LDS Historian and Author
For 150 years Mormon women have performed sacred ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Every person who has received the LDS temple endowment knows that women perform for other women the “initiatory ordinances” of washing and anointing. Fewer know that LDS women also performed ordinances of healing from the 1840s until the 1940s. Yet every Mormon knows that men who perform temple ordinances and healing ordinances must have the Melchizedek priesthood. Women are no exception.
Two weeks after he organized the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith announced his intention to confer priesthood on women. He told them on 30 March 1842 that “the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood” and that he was “going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day—as in Paul's day.” In printing the original minutes of the prophet's talk after his death, the official History of the Church omitted Joseph's first use of the word “Society” and changed the second “Society” to “Church.” Those two alterations changed the entire meaning of his statement. More recently an LDS general authority removed even these diminished statements from a display in the LDS Museum of Church History and Art which commemorated the sesquicentennial of the Relief Society.
On 28 April 1842 the prophet returned to this subject. He told the women that “the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them that they may be able to detect everything false, as well as to the Elders.” The keys “to detect everything false” referred to the signs and tokens used in the “true order of prayer,” still practiced in LDS temples. Then Joseph Smith said, “I now turn the key to you in the name of God, and this society shall rejoice, and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time. . . .” For nineteenth-century LDS women, Joseph's words were prophecy and inspiration to advance spiritually, intellectually, socially, professionally, and politically.
Mormon women did not request priesthood—Joseph Smith would soon confer it on them as part of the restoration of the gospel. His private journal, called the Book of the Law of the Lord, specified the priesthood promise in his instructions to the women on 28 April 1842: “gave a lecture on the pries[t]hood shewing [sic] how the Sisters would come in possession of the privileges & blessings & gifts of the priesthood & that the signs should follow them. such as healing the sick casting out devils &c. & that they might attain unto these blessings. by a virtuous life & conversation & diligence in keeping all the commandments.” Joseph clearly intended that Mormon women in 1842 understand their healings were to be “gifts of the priesthood,” not simply ministrations of faith.
The conferral of priesthood on individual women occurred through what Joseph Smith and associates called the “Holy Order” or “Anointed Quorum” (men and women who had received the priesthood endowment). On 4 May 1842, six days after his remarks to the Relief Society, Joseph introduced nine men to the endowment. The following year, on 28 July 1843, Presiding Patriarch Hyrum Smith, an original member of the Holy Order, blessed Leonora Cannon Taylor: “You shall be blesst [sic] with your portion of the Priesthood which belongeth to you, that you may be set apart for your Anointing and your induement [endowment].”
I bet they will try to claim that those women have the priesthood through their husbands. She will have to also counter with examples of women who got the endownment who were not marrried. They still will not care.
The truth brought forth from the stone in a hat. That sounds creditable!
Brings new meaning to the phrase "I got stoned".
Do you think Bob Dylan was an undercover messenger for TSCC when he sang this little tune?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQ-yHWKSQk
I have a vision of the mormon tabernacle choir singing this at the next GC as the Q15 join in shaken their cain assisted booties behind the pulpit while conferring the priesthood to KK.
For this I would pay to go see!
Brings new meaning to the phrase "I got stoned".
Do you think Bob Dylan was an undercover messenger for TSCC when he sang this little tune?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQ-yHWKSQk
I have a vision of the mormon tabernacle choir singing this at the next GC as the Q15 join in shaken their cain assisted booties behind the pulpit while conferring the priesthood to KK.
For this I would pay to go see!
Tom,
Having grown up in Salt Lake as a direct descendant of Utah pioneers, served a mission in Texas 1960-62, and graduated from "the Lord's university" in 1966, I know a good deal about Mormons and Mormonism. My eyes were fully opened in 1964 via Tanner's "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality." I developed knowledgable inside sources at BYU which were able to provide access to rare documents so I was able to verify the accuracy of Jerald's quotes.
The brethren would have been shocked had they known the extent of the BYU underground. Once I demonstrated that I was able to handle the truth and would not "rat out" the providers, a vast amount of "hidden information" soon became available. Much of what Tanner published was initially provided by these sources. Copies of documents just "showed up" on Jerald and Sandra's doorstep without any indication of origin.
The Tanners made me aware of the existence of the BoA papyri two years prior to the "public" announcement and knew Hugh Nibley was taking a "crash" U of Chicago summer course in Egyptian Hieroglyphics from Klaus Baer at that time. I was subsequently afforded the opportunity to hold and carefully examine facsimile #1 (in its protective case) which was the final nail in the Mormon coffin for me. I became completely inactive by 1970 and have never looked back.
What I soon became aware of when I attempted to inform fellow members was the widespread lack of knowledge regarding true church doctrine and history. And almost all of them DO NOT want to know either. Essentially all the "new" information presently on the internet was available fifty years ago in Jerald's book. Anyone who stuck with the Mormons after 1970 when the truth of the Book of Abraham was known have no one to blame but themselves. As Scully said on the X-files: "Mulder the truth is out there. But so are lies". Most Mormons, then, as now, just don't bother to look.
Having grown up in Salt Lake as a direct descendant of Utah pioneers, served a mission in Texas 1960-62, and graduated from "the Lord's university" in 1966, I know a good deal about Mormons and Mormonism. My eyes were fully opened in 1964 via Tanner's "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality." I developed knowledgable inside sources at BYU which were able to provide access to rare documents so I was able to verify the accuracy of Jerald's quotes.
The brethren would have been shocked had they known the extent of the BYU underground. Once I demonstrated that I was able to handle the truth and would not "rat out" the providers, a vast amount of "hidden information" soon became available. Much of what Tanner published was initially provided by these sources. Copies of documents just "showed up" on Jerald and Sandra's doorstep without any indication of origin.
The Tanners made me aware of the existence of the BoA papyri two years prior to the "public" announcement and knew Hugh Nibley was taking a "crash" U of Chicago summer course in Egyptian Hieroglyphics from Klaus Baer at that time. I was subsequently afforded the opportunity to hold and carefully examine facsimile #1 (in its protective case) which was the final nail in the Mormon coffin for me. I became completely inactive by 1970 and have never looked back.
What I soon became aware of when I attempted to inform fellow members was the widespread lack of knowledge regarding true church doctrine and history. And almost all of them DO NOT want to know either. Essentially all the "new" information presently on the internet was available fifty years ago in Jerald's book. Anyone who stuck with the Mormons after 1970 when the truth of the Book of Abraham was known have no one to blame but themselves. As Scully said on the X-files: "Mulder the truth is out there. But so are lies". Most Mormons, then, as now, just don't bother to look.
Thanks Templar,
You have hit the nail on the head when you say "What I soon became aware of when I attempted to inform fellow members was the widespread lack of knowledge regarding true church doctrine and history. And almost all of them DO NOT want to know either."
That is the great tragedy and why the cult plays on it. The top church leaders are not 'well intentioned but deluded' they are deliberate deceivers of their followers.
Tom
You have hit the nail on the head when you say "What I soon became aware of when I attempted to inform fellow members was the widespread lack of knowledge regarding true church doctrine and history. And almost all of them DO NOT want to know either."
That is the great tragedy and why the cult plays on it. The top church leaders are not 'well intentioned but deluded' they are deliberate deceivers of their followers.
Tom
^ +
Looking for or reading anti-material was strongly discouraged. I felt like it would be challenging god if I pursued the information. It was easy to walk blindly in the church when everyone else was blind also.
Being born in a cult and removing yourself and family is a very difficult thing to do mentally and emotionally.
Tom, you emailed me once from MT and I was grateful for your response. Thanks it helped me wake up and challenge authority and the lies i believed.
All of my family members are out except my DW...some day I hope she will believe the real truth.
Thanks from the bottom of my heart.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 09:59AM by oldklunker.
Being born in a cult and removing yourself and family is a very difficult thing to do mentally and emotionally.
Tom, you emailed me once from MT and I was grateful for your response. Thanks it helped me wake up and challenge authority and the lies i believed.
All of my family members are out except my DW...some day I hope she will believe the real truth.
Thanks from the bottom of my heart.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 09:59AM by oldklunker.
I hear you. Once my mother remarked when I said I was going over to see the Tanners: "Oh, why do you have to see THEM?"
I guess my problem (and my salvation) is that if I am told not to read something, that's the very thing I will read next. I just can't help wondering why they told me not to read it.
I guess my problem (and my salvation) is that if I am told not to read something, that's the very thing I will read next. I just can't help wondering why they told me not to read it.
And not one woman who has had the second anointing will speak up.
That is so sad. They have been given what the church describes as the greatest power, and they can't discuss it even among themselves, just as we can't discuss (or try to talk to) the heavenly mother.
But women are equal in this church, don't worry your pretty little heads.
That is so sad. They have been given what the church describes as the greatest power, and they can't discuss it even among themselves, just as we can't discuss (or try to talk to) the heavenly mother.
But women are equal in this church, don't worry your pretty little heads.
Tom,
Does the wording of the portion of the Second Annointing for women ordain them "priestesses to the Most High God", or are they only made "priestesses unto their husbands" it states in the Endowment and Sealing ceremonies(i.e. only hold the priesthood of their husband, and not God -permanently placing the husband between them and God)? This distinction is a point of contention for my wife and caused her to seriously question the church after I disaffected and she realized that I would not be the man to take her to the Celestial Kingdom.
Thank you for telling your story. I know your journey has been exceptionally difficult.
Does the wording of the portion of the Second Annointing for women ordain them "priestesses to the Most High God", or are they only made "priestesses unto their husbands" it states in the Endowment and Sealing ceremonies(i.e. only hold the priesthood of their husband, and not God -permanently placing the husband between them and God)? This distinction is a point of contention for my wife and caused her to seriously question the church after I disaffected and she realized that I would not be the man to take her to the Celestial Kingdom.
Thank you for telling your story. I know your journey has been exceptionally difficult.
"priestesses unto their husbands"
So, no women ever question why women are giving them their blessings and endowments in the temple instead of men? That is one huge "pulling the wool over the eyes".
This would be an excellent point for Kate to get across to not only her supporters, but to the world. Second annointings should give the rank and file members pause. But we all know how the rank and file like to mull things over.
And I just had the thought that this may be the reason women in Utah got the vote before women elsewhere. If the majority of them already had the priesthood, it would make sense.
Interesting, very interesting.
This would be an excellent point for Kate to get across to not only her supporters, but to the world. Second annointings should give the rank and file members pause. But we all know how the rank and file like to mull things over.
And I just had the thought that this may be the reason women in Utah got the vote before women elsewhere. If the majority of them already had the priesthood, it would make sense.
Interesting, very interesting.
I thought women in Utah were probably given the vote so that polygamous men got more voting power. It's a problem in the UK where a family patriarch tells the rest of his family who they must vote for, or even completes their postal votes for them.
The Mormon church has only given rights to women when it has been in its best interest to do so. After all, women were completely subjugated to men in the temple endowment until 1990!
I have been making similar points about women and the priesthood over and over also.
Templar makes a point I have been making over and over. Most Mormons "don't want to know" !
Members tend to hang onto a few points of the Gospel and miss a lot of others. Keeping the temple ceremonies too sacred to talk about leaves people wondering if they are correct in their experiences and observations. There is no one to check with.
We were at BYU at the same time, Templar (63 to 67). We had a relative that worked in library in some special dept of some kind. He is deceased so I can't inquire what all the fuss was about but I do know he was very concerned and worried. He made some comments to me (I was a convert of about 2 yrs then) which I did not understand but now I have an idea of what it was about. I wondered for years why he was so worried.
Templar makes a point I have been making over and over. Most Mormons "don't want to know" !
Members tend to hang onto a few points of the Gospel and miss a lot of others. Keeping the temple ceremonies too sacred to talk about leaves people wondering if they are correct in their experiences and observations. There is no one to check with.
We were at BYU at the same time, Templar (63 to 67). We had a relative that worked in library in some special dept of some kind. He is deceased so I can't inquire what all the fuss was about but I do know he was very concerned and worried. He made some comments to me (I was a convert of about 2 yrs then) which I did not understand but now I have an idea of what it was about. I wondered for years why he was so worried.
Your relative could very well have been Chad Flake. He was head librarian of "Special Collections". When you wanted to see rare and questionable materials you had to access them through him.
He told me on one occasion that I need not waste my time verifying Tanner's citations. If Jerald quoted it I could rely on its accuracy. In the years since, I have never found this to be wrong. Chad also told me some other things, but I promised to never betray his trust and I never have. Several high placed professors were also quite helpful in my quest for truth.
BTW It was Chad that allowed me to carefully examine facsimile # 1. It was then housed in the library vault at BYU for Nibley's use. This occurred in 1970, several years after I had graduated.
Edit Follow-up:
The reason he may have been worried is that BYU had, in many cases, the only microfilm copy of early Mormon documents for the use of the professors and graduate students.
Since Joseph Fielding Smith had iron fist control over the Church Historian's Office, they naturally assumed (perhaps correctly in some cases) that Tanner was gaining access to the documents thru Chad. Of course, if that were true, neither Chad nor Jerald would have ever admitted it to me, nor would I have asked.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 12:58PM by Templar.
He told me on one occasion that I need not waste my time verifying Tanner's citations. If Jerald quoted it I could rely on its accuracy. In the years since, I have never found this to be wrong. Chad also told me some other things, but I promised to never betray his trust and I never have. Several high placed professors were also quite helpful in my quest for truth.
BTW It was Chad that allowed me to carefully examine facsimile # 1. It was then housed in the library vault at BYU for Nibley's use. This occurred in 1970, several years after I had graduated.
Edit Follow-up:
The reason he may have been worried is that BYU had, in many cases, the only microfilm copy of early Mormon documents for the use of the professors and graduate students.
Since Joseph Fielding Smith had iron fist control over the Church Historian's Office, they naturally assumed (perhaps correctly in some cases) that Tanner was gaining access to the documents thru Chad. Of course, if that were true, neither Chad nor Jerald would have ever admitted it to me, nor would I have asked.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 12:58PM by Templar.
This thread contains fascinating insights. Thank you all.
Wow, this is one of the most interesting threads I have read. More secret temple stuff. Amazing!!!
I think the best thing that could happen is for them to ex Kate Kelly and let Dehlin off the hook. Then a few more Women might finally start to understand their importance within this silly cult. It's amazing, in one corner you have a man with thousands of followers openly claiming many foundational truths are false. In the other corner you have a believing Woman simply wanting more power and influence. She wants to effectively become MORE mormon and she's being compared to a guy that has directed a ton of people out of the church. Mormon logic is astounding.
That said, I also agree that the whole ordain women movement is silly and pointless. She's claiming that ALL of the doctrine is truthful except for allowing women the priesthood. So the church is mostly true except for one of the most basic precepts? Just leave the church for f's sake.
That said, I also agree that the whole ordain women movement is silly and pointless. She's claiming that ALL of the doctrine is truthful except for allowing women the priesthood. So the church is mostly true except for one of the most basic precepts? Just leave the church for f's sake.
What is silly and pointless about women wanting equal rights in a male dominated organization. After all, until 1990, females were clearly subjugated to males in the temple endowment.
Also, Kate has a point. There is nothing in Mormon doctrine that reserves the priesthood solely to males.
Your attitude reminds me of those who say: "America, love it or leave it!" A citizen can love this country, but not like everything about it. Kate is saying she loves the Mormon church, but doesn't like everything about it. What is wrong with that.
Also, Kate has a point. There is nothing in Mormon doctrine that reserves the priesthood solely to males.
Your attitude reminds me of those who say: "America, love it or leave it!" A citizen can love this country, but not like everything about it. Kate is saying she loves the Mormon church, but doesn't like everything about it. What is wrong with that.
I anticipate the day when they will react by changing the second token of the Melchizedik priesthood that women recite going through the veil:
"Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews, POWER IN THE PRIESTHOOD BE UPON ME and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity..."
Active women can't ask these questions of the brethren because they would be punished for disclosing temple language, but women already resigned should help by asking, "What does it mean when a woman says at the veil that the power of the priesthood is upon her? If we don't have the priesthood at the veil, why is saying so the secret code that allows us into God's presence? And if it means we will have the priesthood at a future time, when and under what circumstances?"
"Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews, POWER IN THE PRIESTHOOD BE UPON ME and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity..."
Active women can't ask these questions of the brethren because they would be punished for disclosing temple language, but women already resigned should help by asking, "What does it mean when a woman says at the veil that the power of the priesthood is upon her? If we don't have the priesthood at the veil, why is saying so the secret code that allows us into God's presence? And if it means we will have the priesthood at a future time, when and under what circumstances?"
Couldn't resigned & exed people get in trouble with TSCC legally though? Couldn't TSCC say that they are disclosing copyrighted information, & sue them?
My TBM RSP wife is sure she already has the priesthood. She says everything good is done through the power of the priesthood (therefore we ALL must have it). I'm hitting my head agaist the wall. I've yet to figure out how her CPU operates.
KK would do well to mention in media interviews that the church does ordain some women to the priesthood, but only a few married women, as part of a secret ceremony that most members don't even know about called the Second Anointing or Second Endowment (Once TBMs realise that there are such secret ceremonies it will help them realise that the church is with-holding information from them, which is the first line of evidence in the question of trust).
What we really could do with is a 2 minute segment looking at the major questions such as the BOA and Polyandry hitting the mainstream media as that would hand most TBM's a level of hard hitting information that most would not be aware of and force these issues to the fore. Under such pressure with this being aired on GMA or other such shows it might force a response from the church.
What we really could do with is a 2 minute segment looking at the major questions such as the BOA and Polyandry hitting the mainstream media as that would hand most TBM's a level of hard hitting information that most would not be aware of and force these issues to the fore. Under such pressure with this being aired on GMA or other such shows it might force a response from the church.