On another thread, a poster named "Paul the Apostle" repeatedly asserted that "all women" - Mormon or not - are "gold diggers". (See http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1368036 )

Dr. Love says this statement is as ignorant as it is untrue. Dr. Love also says that guys who say this are searching for excuses to explain why they can't get the women they want, when other guys can. In that respect, it is also pathetic.

It is true that wealth, fame, power, and status can be powerful attractants to both men and women. But it is also true that other qualities can be just as attractive to people, and often, even more so. For every soulless ditz who would only chase a fancy car, there are hundreds of beautiful women who appreciate a kind, strong, funny, confident, passionate, fit man with a plan - even though he doesn't have a lot of money.

In fact, this is one of the most amazing things about women, even the most physically beautiful: when they meet a man of modest means, but can feel his true passion for life, and for them, and feel his integrity and truth, and see his visions and ambitions, and see him striving to make them real; when they can feel his sense of justice and confidence and rock-like emotional strength, and feel his optimism and humour; when they *emotionally resonate with him*, and trust him, and have fun with him, in that moment, not one in a hundred (or more) will care much about the guy's bank account anymore - they will come to believe in that man, and they will want to join him, and go on an amazing journey with him. They will want to *build with him*, even if it means starting mostly from zero. Or at the very least, they will want to spend time with him, and get to know him more, and see where things might go.

I know many (beautiful) women like this. I revere that part of them. My friends date some of them, or are married to them, and I have dated some of them, too. I am dating one now (and my divorce wiped me out financially). How can that be, if "all women are gold diggers"?

Of course, it cannot be. This claim is simply not true, and any guy who believes it needs a crash course in male-female relations, and some serious work on his mojo and life.

Just my two cents,

Dr. Love



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 04:04AM by Tal Bachman.

Gold Diggers abound in any gender designation. It's a human thing.

Heh heh, well if anyone wants to call me a goldigger, they can go ahead, I have been called worse. All I can say is, if that is the case, IT DIDN"T WORK!!!!!

Thanks for the backup Dr Love and Tom Padley!!

"Paul the Apostle" was ignorant indeed, because we all know that the greatest gold-digger of all time was a man.

Are you impugning the good name of Joseph Smith, Jr. ?

He was not a gold digger!

To call someone a gold digger implies they actually dug up gold at some point.

And dad wasn't either. Her and my dad are poor as they come. Always were. She would rather be poor with him than rich with anybuddy else!

Poor as they are, us dogs always get the BEST food and care!

In my experience, sweeping generalizations about people and their behavior are virtually always flawed.

Except this one.

My anecdote (which I realize isn't data):

I married my wife when I had just graduated college and was working two full-time jobs that paid about 50% over minimum wage. At the time, she had no idea of how much money I would be making; all she knew was that I worked hard. We're well-off now, but she didn't know that was in the cards then.

My personal view -- born out by a few studies -- is that women want somebody adaptable, and that can provide a modicum of security. Most women would probably prefer a man with a moderate income that can provide emotional support to a very rich man that's never there for them.

No. I want a man who is secure in and of himself. I found my happiness and security within and I do not need another person to make me feel happy or secure. Anyone who does is needy on some level.

Different women have different needs. Some of them need security, some of them can go with the flow.

Many years ago, I was dating this fella and he told me about this exchange with his best friend.

"So I hear you're going out with Dogzilla, man."

"Yeah, she's pretty cool."

"Better watch out. She'll get your money."

"Nah, she's got her own money."

"Well, then, get hers."

LOLz ensued. Nobody was trying to get anybody's money.

I just post that to let people know how deeply insulting and condescending it is to hear that some people think that literally ALL women are gold diggers. That denies giving me credit for working so hard to support myself, set myself up with a good solid credit rating, and to build a nest egg for myself. One of the reasons I refuse to marry is precisely because I am usually in a better financial position than the men I date. This does not abate my interest in a man at ALL, until and unless it's clear that HE is the gold digger who is only interested in bleeding me dry.

It works both ways. How dare anyone suggest that I am after a man's money? That goes against everything I believe in and stand for and makes me white hot furious, hotter than 10,000 suns. Why do I work so hard and am so proud of taking care of myself so well when it doesn't matter? Apparently, people don't care to think of others as also people, so I will just be lumped into the same gold-digger category as less independent women, regardless of who I actually am.

And it makes me not want to date, ever again, because I can only assume that 90% of the men think I am after their money, when in reality, what I'm actually worried about is THEM trying to rip ME off. So... who said that, "Paul the Apostle"? Go fuck yourself Paul the Apostle. Just quit it with your misogynist crap.

HERE HERE...I second that dogzilla! I have been working (and getting paid) since I was 12.. left home before graduating HS...still worked n finished, put myself theough college, have a great career....without the help (or hinderance) of a man!! I am fiercely independant and was highly insulted by the claims of Paul the apostle on the other thread...i just didnt have the nerve to drop the f-bomb... (obviously i still cant tell someone to f off)..

Somewhere in the "all women are gold diggers" rant, an important point is lost. Women have been making their OWN money for decades now.

Women have been earning a slight majority of the bachelor's degrees awarded in this country since the 90s, and an increasing percentage of women earn more than their husbands.

If we're "gold diggers," that just means we open and manage our own gold mines.

My husband and I have a joke about this. He comes from a family full of criminals. When we got married, I was earning just over minimum wage despite having a bachelor's degree. We joked that I wanted his prestigious family name and he was after my money.

I make more than he does now. If we got divorced I'd be able to take care of myself without fishing for a Provider Guy.

Thank you.

I would add (as if I hadn't said enough already) that yes, I think being productive enough to contribute to your own welfare and wellbeing is important. I don't want some useless guy who can't keep a job because reasons. I don't want someone to "keep" me in pampered fashion either. I don't need a babysitter/sugar daddy/someone to take care of me. I don't need an extended-adolescence baby-manchild either.

What I need is an equal who is willing to work hard to reach his own goals and who has a little bit of energy left to spare for supporting his partner. I think most of us are looking for someone who will pull their own weight in a relationship and within a household.

So what I think is going on here is, the dudes who cry and wank and whine about all women being golddiggers are just butthurt because they are expected to value women for more than just being vaginas surrounded by meat. And these men are expected to contribute more to the relationship than just money. And that could mean working, full time, in a productive job with which they can support THEMSELVES. Since that's hard, it's just easier to whine that women are shallow superficial bitches who are just looking to trade pu**y for a handout. It's much harder to hold yourself accountable for taking personal responsibility for yourself and your choices.

If we're not gorgeous gold-digging whores, we're unattractive, fat bitches no one would even bother to look at twice. We're overemotional, illogical, non-sexual creatures who don't have our own minds or we're shady, promiscuous sluts trying to trap a man with a pregnancy.

Anything I miss?

And those guys wonder why women have little to no interest in them.

The reality is much more complicated than the heuristics.

Nope, I believe you covered it all.

;>)

That post was so full of win, I can't even. You win RfM today!

No matter what label we have slapped on us, we're all liars.

"Everybody lies."

--Dr. House.

I'm single and I was living in the SLC area for several months during 2009/10 and wasn't having much luck dating LDS women. So for fun I decided to test the gold digger stereotype by putting up a profile that suggested a fairly lavish lifestyle was available. I didn't have may who were interested.

After becoming divorced back in the 90's, I dated lots of women. A couple of them were quite well off with inherited land and money. Unfortunately, they were also crazy. I found a diamond in the rough later. A hard-working, practical farmer's daughter. She was rich in character, not money.

I think biologically we may be wired to look for "successful" men but I think "successful" is far more nuanced than gold/riches. ie; Musicians can be quite poor but oh so hot!

But, people who make sweeping generalisations probably aren't big on seeing nuance. So gold it is! I'm sorry Paul The Apostle sees or has experienced life that way.

I read with much interest all of your original posts all those years ago about meeting and marrying your wife and your travails and etc. I was impressed with the amount of personal details you laid out for all to read.

Does Dr. Love ever plan on writing and sharing about the pains of a breaking apart marriage because of the realization that Mormonism is nothing but a huge elaborate mindfuck?

Andy Warhol is attributed the saying/question, "Why can't everyone like everyone?"

Because we're different.

If we weren't, this forum would be boring. We'd read a post, nod in agreement, and move on. Nothing new to see.

People making blanket statement (like this one I'm making at this very second??? ;-) ) fall into a trap that they focus on one group/attribute to the exclusion of others.

Suffice it to say what I said above. We're all different. One size does not fit all.

People have asked me what it's like to marry a successful man. I have no idea. I married a guy who was driving a beat up, very old chevy, and didn't have two nickels to rub together.

Bamboozled: Like most people, a big part of me would like to tell "my story"; in particular, how the realization that Mormonism was a fraud contributed to the disintegration of a beautiful marriage and family of ten (eight kids). I tried to keep my marriage together for five solid years after leaving. Sadly, in the end, I failed to stop this from occurring.

I can't tell that story, at least in any detail. My kids are still young, and I want them to have a good relationship with their mother. All I can say is, I wound up very hurt, and I eventually had to accept that my then-wife and I had very different ideas on what marriage meant, or should mean.

I agree with most of the comments here. I just do not get the "all women are gold-diggers" slur. I recognize that *some* women are like this, just like some men are. But "all"? Or "most"? Even "many"? No way.

If the "all women are gold-diggers" theory were true, "all women" would prefer to be with a fat, old, rude, disgusting, malodorous slob with a million bucks in the bank, rather than a smart, funny, clean, confident young firefighter who loves kids and is trying to get his fitness gym business off the ground, who only has ten grand in the bank.

Seriously, how can anyone who has ever interacted with women think that "all", "most", or even "many" of them will prefer the first guy?

The point is that while wealth can be an attractant, so can many other things; and the attraction of wealth can be diminished by other factors, like a rotten personality.

None of my guy friends (nor I, these days) could be considered rich, wealthy, or even above average. We all range from pretty poor to very average. Most of us drive modest vehicles. That has not lessened our ability to attract beautiful women of quality. One of my buddies owns a small organic farm. He's poor - there's no other way to say it. But the guy (he's forty, too) is confident, engaging, charismatic, and he attracts women like crazy - and I'm talking, hottest of the hot.

Here's one thing I've noticed: if what you do (or are trying to do, professionally) is *intriguing* and *interesting* and *exciting*, most women will like that. For example, one guy I know, who attracts no end of beautiful women, is a man of very modest means; but he plays guitar and sings locally, AND he goes on yearly expeditions to Antarctica as a guide. He's fit, funny, knows what he wants, exudes a kind of dashing, primal, masculine vigor, and as a result, women are following him around like he's The Pied Piper, despite the fact he's not wealthy by any means. He also has a kid from a previous relationship; the ladies don't care about that, because they like *him* so much.

If a confident and good guy can create shared, emotionally-powerful experiences with a woman, that's a lot more attractive to most women than numbers on a bank ledger.

Just my observation. No idea how any guy, especially given the state of Western culture in 2014, can still be saying, "all women are gold-diggers". It's very Tom Laikas, and very stupid.

Just my two cents.

There were a lot of offensive things said in that post.

I dated my boyfriend when I was 20 and hot. Dating him made me "hotter." He made me feel attractive, desired, and I never so much as french kissed him. I didn't marry him because he wasn't mormon.

Some 28 years later, he got divorced. She left him, cheated on him. He earns 3 times the money my ex does, BUT she took him for a lot of money, so not like he has a bunch of money. I pay my fair share. I always have. I've never understood why men have to pay for dates, etc. He actually told me recently "I'd like to take care of you more, but you won't allow me to."

Want to know what I like about him? I still feel like that 20-year-old he dated now 38 years ago. I'm 57 and I'm not the hotty I used to be. The most important thing he does for me is he makes me feel comfortable in my own skin. I feel pretty whenever I'm with him. He is shorter than me and yet I never feel tall and gawky when I'm with him like I did with my ex, who is as tall as I am. THAT is why I'm with him.

has a chip on his shoulder against women. That alone will hurt his chances with well-adjusted ladies. Self-confident women would find that sort of attitude to be very UNattractive, even offensive. Maybe he's been hurt or something, but he needs to get over that before trying to get back into a relationship. Whatever he's experienced that makes him feel that way, it's not representative of all women.

I would never date a guy who showed contempt for women.

cl2

Dr. Love wants to make a respectful little suggestion based on what you wrote above about your fella :)

When he tells you he'd like to "take care of you more", hear that as him taking a risk to express a need to you, and try accommodating him.

After all, what his comment really means is this:

"I love you, and I want to go even deeper with you";

"I want to feel more important and necessary to you; I know you're competent and amazing, but a part of me still wants to be your hero. Will you let me do that?";

"I want to serve you and show you my love more. Making you even happier will make me happier";

"I want to worship you with my love, and feel you worship me in return".

******

You sound like you have taken a lot of pride in your independence over the years. Dr. Love says that is all fine; it's just there are also circumstances in which love asks us to let go a bit, and create a special space where a process of uniting can occur, in which we let a special person give us gifts we perhaps are not used to getting.

Try it out, cl2. Try saying things like, "You know what I would love for you to do? I would love it if you (insert request)". Sure, you could do it for yourself; but you've got a great guy who adores you now. Why not give him the gift of allowing him to be your hero, just a bit more? When he's completed his task, tell him what a great job he did. It sounds simple, maybe even juvenile - but it's still important, and will still help you two feel even closer.

Just a thought. Good luck.