Hi everyone...I have a huge request for help. First a little background. I was once married to a Christian minister and we had two children, and we're fulltime missionaries in our non-denominational Christian church. My husband was abusive and a prescription drug user and an alcoholic. I was a closeted gay, running from who I truly was....after three tries I finally divorced him and came out of the closet. One of the best decisions I ever made..being truthful with myself and others even though it was hard. In time I met the love of my life and we have been together for 10 years and are now legally married. My wife was also married for almost 23 years and was a member of the LDS church since birth. She was excommunicated and left the church on her own accord. In order for her to have custody of her children , of which there are 14, six young ones who have been with us for 10 years, her husband made her promise in the divorce decree that they would continue to go to the LDS church.
This is so very difficult for me. As a Christian, my true belief in Mormonism is that it is a false religion. I have a degree in biblical studies, and I have intensely studied true Mormonism. I love this sight and have found great understanding here for my wife. She is so scared to tell her children the truth about the LDS church, thinking her ex will try to take them away. He knows we don't beleive, even though LDS members in our neighborhood take them to their church functions. Please help me to know how to tell these children the truth. They are 13, 14, 15, 15, 17 and 19 years old. The oldest son just left for his mission a month ago in Peru. My heart breaks for these kids. I love them as my own. One of our 15 year old twins refuses to go to church because they judge her moms for being gay, and she said she doesn't beleive anymore. The dad has done nothing since she stopped going. Of the eight of my wife's older children, only four continue to go to church. The other four push the youngest to go and obey all the rules.
What is the best way to tell the youngest ones that Mormonism is a false religion built on lies? Thank you so much for your help...my heart is breaking seeing them get deeper in this so called faith, and since our oldest son left to go on a mission.

I'd talk with your wife and decide together what to tell the kids and when. The two older ones are straddling 18 on both sides so adults are not going to be able to tell them what to do for long. The divorce decree only goes to the age of 18.

I would start with the 19 year old, (unless that is the one on a mission) and if so the 17 year old. Tell them your thoughts about the CULT in a non threatening way. If you can get the oldest one to believe you about the cult, you can enlist that one's help with the younger kids. They look up to older siblings. I know it seems underhanded, but with something as horrible as the CULT is, you need any trick in the book, anything you can get to save those kids from the CULT horror that is TBM life.

Keep us posted.

I'm sorry, but it's not your place to preach to other people's children. You are not their parent; it's not up to you.

I wouldn't say anything until they are each 18 years of age. Even then, I would be circumspect and perhaps wait for any questions they might have. You really don't want to run the risk of alienating them. Also, they will get a lot of cognitive dissonance just by having the church disapprove of the lifestyle that you enjoy with your spouse.

I would advise your partner to consult a lawyer to see if the divorce decree can be modified.

You are fortunate that your step kids have anything to do with you. My exmo husband's TBM kids completely disowned him and he hasn't seen or heard from them in years.

I'm with those who say to leave it up to the kids' parents, especially if they are under 18. However, I certainly empathize with you. There have been many times I've wanted to find my husband's daughters and try to "set them straight". I don't, because I don't think it's my place. I doubt they'd listen to me anyway.

OP said:

"She was excommunicated ... her husband made her promise in the divorce decree that they would continue to go to the LDS church."

"She is so scared to tell her children the truth about the LDS church, thinking her ex will try to take them away."

... "The other four push the youngest to go and obey all the rules."

? "What is the best way to tell the youngest ones that Mormonism is a false religion built on lies?" ((You DON'T! ))

Psychologist Steve Hassan tells his experience in. He described a friend that was able to help him. A friend he could trust
In this video:

Releasing the Bonds

http://vimeo.com/15963095


I suggest focusing on caring relationships.

You're right in that you would risk having the father sue for custody, especially if having the kids go to church was a part of the divorce agreement.

Don't do it, plain and simple. It's not worth the risk.

It sounds like the older ones, who don't live with you, are figuring it out for themselves. Chances are that the younger ones will follow suit in time.

Let them figure it out for themselves. Just be wonderful and loving and sooner or later the way that the Church thinks of you will bother them enough to help them figure it out on their own.

My tbm brother lives next door to me. Out of respect fot him I have always just kept my mouth shut when they talk religion. But I did make a comment once.
Basically I said that anything that is true will have supporting evidence. Then gave an example.
My ex was a bad alcoholic, and mentally abusive, but every time he opened his mouth he was saying how much he loved me. Then I pointed out that I had never heard their dad say he loves their mom, but if he did I would believe him because I have seen the way he treats her.
Do not actually preach, but examples like this and questions about "what did you learn today and what do you think?" might get them to open their eyes.

You don't. Not your place.
But you can live your life in such a way to show them that joy and happiness can be found outside Mormonism.

By how you act

Be the non abusive one in every situation you can

Be the strenth

Be the no catch 22 no parodoxes not crazy making part of their lives

Be the remarkable mentor that I know you can be on how to face life

And these kids will face adversity obstacles just as you showed them

They can overcome snd withstand more and grow
If you can live your faith

Be the grace
Be the nonabuser
Be the compassin
Be the enthusiasm
Act the courage of Job
Be the love & hope
Do not rant berate debate---- instead participate
Participate show the mercy and live the loving compassion most people only read about
Faith is. Live it
Wordy faith is like cold dirty dish water
It just goes down the drain
Its indffective cleaning dishes
Wordiness about faith us like dish water
Filled with scum debris clouding
The true message. Show it to share it
Theyll see what you do copy you
Not what you say its ehat you do today
How you fo whst you do they model you
Day after day after day

Walk it
Dont talk it

Thank you all for your insight. I did watch the video by Steve Hsussen..it is very interesting, but very broad based. As I said , it is my wife and I who are seeking help. I myself HAVE been a parent to the six youngest children for over ten years...I don't see how those of you can say I am not a parent...as in " step PARENT" . I will not over step my boundaries in doing anything without my wifes consent in reference to this issue. I acknowledge her as their true mother... We both are soul sick continuing to send them to this false church....these are six amazing children who we are encouraging to have a true relationship with Jesus Christ and all I feel free to do is teach them the Bible since it is also a part of their "scriptures" . I also know prayer is a big help. I love these children as my own and I abhore the lies and brainwashing they continue to receive. I know 18 is when I can speak the ultimate truth....but how much damage is done to them before that?

Plenty of people will try to project their own situation onto yours because all we have to go on is what you posted.
And some may have skimmed your post and missed details.
Hopefully there is some advice here you can use, but when it is not applicable, pay it no mind.

I think discussing with the children about things they are learning at their church is a good move, and following up with "critical thinking" questions, like, "How does what you learned today line up with what you know about true kindness and compassion for your fellow man."

For instance, they will be receiving a LOT of lessons that deal with things mentioned in the book, The Not Even Once Club.
Which is quite the antithesis of christlike behavior.
Mormons AND that book I mentioned teach that after you repent from sin, if you sin again, all the previous sins are as if they were never forgiven.
Also, sin is likened to a board with nails pounded into it. You can pull the nails and spackle the holes by repenting, but isn't unblemished wood preferable?

These kids are being subjected to guilting and incredible pressure to be perfect, an impossible demand. They will need help working on things like admitting fault, not finding fault in others, how to apologize in a genuine manner, and how to forgive in a safe manner.
These are some very basic being-good-human-concepts that are deliberately distorted and manipulated by that so called church they are trapped in until they are 18.

Also the us vs. them mentality is pushed hard. Insiders vs. The World, chosen ones vs. those not favored.
That so called church is a recipe for personality disorders, abuse, and learning cruelty.

Good luck,
An atheist

We respect your concerns for your children that you have helped raise for ten years!

!!! LIKE This:
"... these are six amazing children who we are encouraging to have a true relationship with Jesus Christ and all I feel free to do is teach them the Bible since it is also a part of their "scriptures"

Hope you can make time at home on Weekends for enjoying meals and some activities together.

Do you have a congregation where they can make friends for an activity night?

Posters were concerned about conditions of the divorce in being restrictive and limiting what you can do and the possible repercussions in relationships and custody, as you said your wife was fearing.

I like also the ideas to teach children skills to think and discern for themselves, instead of absolute obedience to authority. To teach them about other cultures and about successful people.

Maybe you could share some video to help the kids think:

Recently someone shared Ted Talks on the forum

Kathryn Schulz: On being wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleRgTBMX88

and one I like by Joseph Rosendo (PBS: Travelscope)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tahkgRuk0U


About using the bible to teach about Jesus
Are you aware of the differing definitions of terms that Mormonism has?

Sandra Tanner has this page about terminology differences between Protestant Christianity and Mormonism

http://utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm
TERMINOLOGY DIFFERENCES

internet and youtube searches: Bible vs Book of Mormon and Jesus Christ vs Joseph Smith may get some interesting videos

What about activities to make non member friends outside of the Mormon groups. (Sports groups, Soccer, Scout groups sponsored by other churches, Library book clubs ... )

Is it allowed to take a Sunday off once in awhile for family time together?

Other forums for exmo's or closet non-believers trying to keep their families intact.

1) http://forum.newordermormon.org/
or
2) Internet search: "The Best Exmormon Forum"

Stepparents have a tough job. They are expected to love their partner's children as if they were their own, but they don't have the legal rights that biological parents have. My advice to leave the religious discussions up to the children's legal parents has nothing to do with my seeing you as a less than a real mom or a figure of influence to your stepchildren. I'm certain you have loved and treated those kids as if they are your own. From a legal standpoint, though, they are not your children.

If you and your wife suddenly split, you likely wouldn't have a legal right to visitation or custody nor would you have a say in how they were raised. And you also likely would have no legal responsibilities toward them. So, for that reason, I think you should leave issues like religion up to the legal parents, since they ultimately have more power and influence over the kids than you do.

I do think those who told you to live a good life and promote critical thinking by asking questions are on the right track. Show the kids that they can be happy without the church and ask them what they learn in church. Don't directly criticize it, though, because I think you'd be asking for trouble.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 01:50AM by knotheadusc.

Just be a good step parent, let them know they are loved and that you hope that when they are adults, they will spread their wings and fly in whatever direction the wind takes them.

Kids who have one parent in the cult and one normal parent are in a lot less danger of being TBM through adulthood. They feel the pressure when they're minors to do what everyone is telling they're supposed to and that might include going on a mission. But keeping your relationship with them is the best thing you can do. When they are adults, either mormonism will work for them or it won't and they will question and you will see that they are not happy.

If it works for them, then be glad they are happy. It took me a long time to really accept that there are people who it works for and they really are perfectly content with that life. Especially if they live in the Moridor and can build their social life around it. If it doesn't work for them, trust me, they will be coming to you. They will be so lucky to have a parent(s) who is there to support them, understand their feelings, answer their questions.

If you try to tell them the truth and alienate them, they could feel like they have no link to any support if they realize they need it.

"My heart breaks for these kids. I love them as my own."

But they're not, my friend. Their not your own. Best you can do is live a good, authentic, and moral life that shows them the LDS church doesn't have the corner on love, charity, and goodness. In fact, they'll see before long that not only does the LDS church not have the corner on all things good and praiseworthy, but that, in fact, Mormons suck at most of those things. In a few years, they'll all be adults and, if they want to know your views, they'll ask.

It's tough, I know.

Just be cool about it. Kids like hanging out at mutual, stake dances, etc. Cool, good for them, hope they have a great time. Want to go on a mission? Good luck on the endeavor! Want to stay home because mutual sucks? No problem, you're old enough to decide what to do with your free time. Mission sucks and you want to come home early? I'm here to support you and welcome you home with open arms.

You have the advantage of being very obviously not what the church promotes as the *right way* to live and be happy. Just living your life in a way that makes you happy and well adjusted sends a clear message that the mormon way is definitely not the only way to lead a fulfilling life.

Wow..obviously people have their own agendas on here.....
We are NOT asking for legal help. As I have been a step parent for 10 years I know my rights...I know the cold hard facts....I am not their biological parent. Do you think that stops us from wanting our children to know the truth? NO.....we are not stupid, we know we must follow the divorce decree and we have with no problem doing that. What we are concerned about is sharing the truth with our children in a way that will not hurt or belittle them. We thought that this forum was for those who had also came to this truth, so we are even more confused with the judgmental comments. We so appreciate those who have given us constructive help and understand our situation. Our children are getting to the age where we can share the truth with them about the Mormon church, and we were wanting help on how best to do this. Again if you could share what helped you decide to break away and how you felt as a teenager in the mormon church it would be helpful to us. And to "Cristina" there is no one who knows that they are not the biological parent and have very little rights more that a step parent. I can only speak for myself, but I will give all the love and support and understanding and prayers and tears for These children, until the day I die...knowing full well I hold no rights to call them Mine...I did not give birth to them, but their love is birthed in my heart and that will never change! (I'm not quite sure why this got posted up here)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 12:52PM by theresandra.

Your summary of the situation stated, "In order for her to have custody of her children , of which there are 14, six young ones who have been with us for 10 years, her husband made her promise in the divorce decree that they would continue to go to the LDS church. This is so very difficult for me."

What's difficult for you is irrelevant. The part you continue to ingore is the father, his objectives for his children, his desire that they be influenced by a particular church NOT YOUR CHURCH OR BELIEFS. It's a divorce decree and order for a reason, to implement the agreement upon which custody was decided. What you've asked here is how to go around it. Because "this is so very difficult for me."

I wasn't giving legal advice. Really only opinig with my jaw dropped open how an outsider can feel that the terms of the children's upbringing as negotiated between two parents isjust so "difficult" for you and how do you undermine the father's intentions.

Even your second explanation ignores the father and focuses again on you and your feelings. I was trying to say butt out before the children's father decides the decree is being undermined by you and decides to sue to get custody back.

This forums certainly includes discussions on how to illuminate others about inconvenient facts about the Mormon church. But non-parents seeking to indoctrinate someone elses minor children or deconstruct their growing religious views to replace the influence of the actual parent is not something encountered here often if ever. (I'm not talking about your partner, but of the father whose ignored in all this.) Especially in wanting to proselyte a new religion to them that matches your beliefs better. Its self evident.

I don't know where you live, but if it's anywhere near a large city, take them to the large city venues.

Nothing undoes mormonism like the arts. Theatre, music, art,dance, History museums. Get involved in those. Let the kids spread their wings in the areas that interest them.

Take them to concerts of all kinds, art exhibits, history exhibits at museums. They will know that there's a 1000 other ways to think and be. Mormonism teaches there's only one.

I'd recommend taking the proverbial beam out of your eye before you start picking splinters out of your step-kids' eyes.

Your beliefs are no more sound or sane, or evidence-based than your step-kids' beliefs.

Notice that your whole approach is based on getting advice on how to tell the kids what to think and what to believe.

The better path would be to teach them HOW to think and HOW to only hold beliefs based on solid standards of evidence.

But I really don't see how you can accomplish that for them if you're not willing to do it for yourself.

Just sayin'

Citicizes someone for critizing . . . . BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm with Kolobian on this one. I have mormon family and friends who enjoy their *truth* and do just fine with it in their way, and they think that others need to come to their truth. The "my [unfounded] beliefs are better than your beliefs" has little merit.

The advice to teach children to think for themselves is an excellent one!

But how effective is it when delivered with criticism because she realizes that the bible teachings of Jesus teach ethics and the golden rule and can show differences to the
LDS teachings that can help her step children to think.

Op was asking for help in a situation that requires children to be indoctrinated into the controlling and con religion of Mormonism. She was asking for ideas besides using the bible.

"...her husband made her promise in the divorce decree that they would continue to go to the LDS church."

IMO you two really, really should visit an attorney together about this, if you haven't already. Find out if this restriction is even enforceable. It may be, I don't know, but forcing a specific religion seems to be pushing it to me. Worst case, you have to live with it for a few more years; best case, the entire agreement could be nullified.

If it enforceable, discuss the limitation of the restriction with the lawyer. Legal documents are binding, but often very specific and narrow. If the attorney agrees that the *only* condition is that the children continue to go church on Sunday, that may create a huge loophole to exploit. The kids go to their three-hour block in the afternoon, and in the evening you all sit around and discuss the CES letter. The restrictive covenant is still being complied with, and therefore the ex has no case, but the children are receiving the antidote in real time.

Meanwhile, if you can and want to, have the attorney file motions to void that religious clause on the grounds of it being oppressive, onerous and burdensome. Some judge might agree. Best of luck to you.

Very interesting and some very helpful comments. kolobian seems a little angry... And I was a little confused with your comments...all I am trying to do is help five kids I love deal with being stuck within a cult. As Mormonism teaches them that it is the only true church, and all others are an abomination to God...I think I am hoping they can become more open minded and learn to think for themselves. Maybe the question I should ask here is how did you all learn that the LDS church was false and how did you cope and deal with that? Book of Mordor I appreciate your comments very much, and all who have spoke of showing love and a good example of someone who is not a Mormon. I know I have done this the best I can and it continues to be my prayer...my wife would never allow me to say that these are Not my children, because for 10 years I have been nothing but a loving concerned mother to them. My fear is for the brainwashing they are receiving by this false religion, and I came to this forum to understand how you have all dealt with overcoming this same brainwashing and bondage. How did you feel as a teen going to the LDS church. We truly want to approach them with the truth in a way they can accept and not feel judged and ridiculed, but loved and cherished.

I am an attorney so I can respond to the issure regarding the divorce decree. Courts can and do base custody decisions on orders requiring the children to remain in whatever religion/activities/schools, etc that they were in prior to divorce. Any action on the part of a parent to sobatoge that order can be grounds for changing custody or limiting parent time and contempt of court. I am pretty sickened by situations such as this where someone other than the parent decides to intervene, just as I am where a parent decides to violate the order for what they think are good reasons and end up losing custody.

I was raised by divorced parents. I had a step mother. At no point in my life have I considered her a parent. My father marrying her did not convert her into my parent, she was a step parent which is entirely different than a parent. The authority of a parent is diluted when other adults assume themselves to also be the parents because they are involved.

It's interesting that you have not once mentioned the father's feelings or desires when you say your wife considers you a parent. I'm sure the father doesn't consider you a parent to his children. You're equating step parent, which can be completely temporary in nature, to that of a biological or adoptive parent which is permanent and carries permanent obligations which step parent does not.

Simply put, you're trying to oppose the children's father and justifying it by referring to your partners wishes and feelings. It's the father, not your partner, whom you're trying to replace in terms of INFLUENCE and you have no right to substitute your "truths" for the father's decisions on how to raise HIS CHILDREN.

There are boundries in relationships and you cannot just replace the children's father because you feel you've earned some right to be a parent. They have a father. And a court order that you're risking to mess up for everyone by intruding. You're not their father.

Thanks Cristina. You put it very well.

Sorry...somehow my last comment was posted above...I guess you should just look at the date and time....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2014 01:12PM by theresandra.