Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: generationofvipers ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 12:37AM

There has been a surfeit of posts lately criticizing the views, behaviors, and expressed beliefs of the so-called "New Atheists", primarily by Tal Bachman. Now there is significant criticism of a poseur/poster who claimed to find nothing wrong with cheating on a spouse.

I do not want to be an ethical nihilist. The same things repel me as any man or woman of my time with a reasonable education and conscience. But I struggle to find any real grounding for ethics without a belief in a god, or at least a godlike ultimate universal basis for morality like the "Eternal Law" we heard about in church.

So my question is this: By what standard do you find the "New Atheists" (or for that matter anybody else's) conduct or statements unethical? LDS? Christian? The US or Canadian legal code? Hammurabi's code? What?

I don't think some of us have thought it through before casing stones as if we were still possessed of the moral certitude of primary children.

Russell's description of Kant is applicable to many of us: "...in intellectual matters he was skeptical, but in moral matters he believed implicitly in the maxims that he had imbibed at his mother's knee."

In reality there is nothing left to an atheist or true agnostic to serve as a ground for morals than their feelings. Their ethical statements are just so many ways of saying "this feels offensive to me" or "I like that".

But, as we all know, feelings aren't facts. They are feelings.

Are all of our deep seated judgments of right and wrong nothing more than feelings, driven by biology and informed by whatever society we are part of? Feelings as variable and subjective as the people who hold them? Is the Aztec sacrifice of a hundred thousand enemies to the sun god no worse or better than the humanism of the Founding Fathers?

Even though I rebel against the conclusion, I can't see a relativistic way out of it. I am afraid that Ivan Karamazov might have been right. If there is no God, everything would be permitted, nothing is forbidden.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: beyondashadow ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:13AM

Treat and respect others as you yourself would appreciate being treated and respected if your respective roles were reversed.

That is my own restatement of the Golden Rule.

Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks God is or is not. You are in possession of your own moral center. Stop looking outside of yourself for a Behavior Cop.

Govern yourself. The Golden Rule is all you will ever need.

If you make a destructive choice, the pain you will eventually feel will steer you back on course sooner or later.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:30AM

beyondashadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Treat and respect others as you yourself would
> appreciate being treated and respected if your
> respective roles were reversed.
>
> That is my own restatement of the Golden Rule.
>
> Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks God
> is or is not. You are in possession of your own
> moral center. Stop looking outside of yourself
> for a Behavior Cop.
>
> Govern yourself. The Golden Rule is all you will
> ever need.
>
> If you make a destructive choice, the pain you
> will eventually feel will steer you back on
> course sooner or later.

Your position works well for an individual, but is wholly inadequate to govern a people.

If my family needs food and shelter, why should we not take yours? My morality is that caring for my family is more important than your needs. I hope you offer the same devotion to your family.

You're free to treat others as you wish to be treated. I'll treat you as I need to in order to provide for those I love. Your morality has no authority over me to do otherwise.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: fluffinatorb ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 09:46AM

I run a business, have a family and hobbies. I spent enough time after my exit to find a satisfactory conclusion on this subject:

Everything I do has consequences - intended or unintended. Humans have learned how to coexist for tens of thousands of years. If I lie, cheat and steal...the consequences do not need to come from a god. Those to/from whom I lie, cheat & steal will respond accordingly. My morals will be learned from those consequences.

Only through the twisted "higher" order systems like royalty, religion and governments do we see ownership claims and rights that normalize lying, cheating and stealing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:17AM

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your position works well for an individual, but is
> wholly inadequate to govern a people.
>
> If my family needs food and shelter, why should we
> not take yours? My morality is that caring for my
> family is more important than your needs. I hope
> you offer the same devotion to your family.
>
> You're free to treat others as you wish to be
> treated. I'll treat you as I need to in order to
> provide for those I love. Your morality has no
> authority over me to do otherwise.

Tens of thousands of years of human interaction worked this stuff out already while you weren't watching. It's why we have secular laws. No one wants their stuff stolen. They don't need a deity to tell them that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:39AM

Stray Mutt Wrote:
> Tens of thousands of years of human interaction
> worked this stuff out already while you weren't
> watching. It's why we have secular laws. No one
> wants their stuff stolen. They don't need a deity
> to tell them that.


No, I was watching. Maybe I saw it differently than you. Standing in a free society with laws founded on inalienable rights granted from a deity has caused many of us to become blind to those in the world who do not have such liberties.

The numbers vary depending upon your source, but it's likely that as many as 2/3 of the world's population do not enjoy the simple liberties of free assembly, free speech, freedom of religion, and open political interaction. Based upon "what we've learned" over the past thousands of years, denial of liberty is what we should expect from laws delivered at the authority of our fellow man.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2014#.VEE4ItTF-JU

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jorsen ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:20AM

If there truly is no God and absolutely no afterlife, then there is no eternal punishment and the only thing we must live with is the consequences mental and physical here in the real world.

That being said, Ivan Karamazov is only correct if God is the only source of ethics and I submit to you that God is not! God is man made thus 'God's very ethics are man made as well.

Thusly, What is permitted is what our fellow human beings decide should be permitted, and what is forbidden is what we our fellow human beings decide is forbidden.

There are always consequences to everything...both action and inaction. All this means is that the society we are a part of and our own personal interpretations of that societal norm will help influence what is permitted and what is forbidden in our personal lives.

.02 cents

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:38AM

Jorsen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thusly, What is permitted is what our fellow human
> beings decide should be permitted, and what is
> forbidden is what we our fellow human beings
> decide is forbidden.

A sad and dangerous legacy. The majority of Germans supported the slaughter of the Jews. I imagine you may want to dig for some deeper roots to your argument over morality.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/09/bsp/hitler.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:21AM

The hatred of Jews was rooted in the Christian belief they were responsible for killing Jesus. That's not the only case of religion -- and the belief God wants certain things -- being used to perpetrate immoral acts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 10:22AM by Stray Mutt.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:26AM

My take is that people are smart enough on their own, by themselves without a supernatural force or gods, to figure out that it is a good idea to not steal stuff, to not kill, to be a friend if you want a friend, to share and that this circle will come around full swing to benefit you too. It does not take a rocket scientist in my mind. We know this by kindergarden age.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 01:49AM

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My take is that people are smart enough on their
> own, by themselves without a supernatural force or
> gods, to figure out that it is a good idea to not
> steal stuff, to not kill, to be a friend if you
> want a friend, to share and that this circle will
> come around full swing to benefit you too. It
> does not take a rocket scientist in my mind. We
> know this by kindergarden age.

We write these things as we sit comfortably in our homes nestled in the safety of a free culture with a largely Judeo/Christian morality.

I imagine if you were a Jew in Hitler's Germany you would not suggest this.

Consider also members of Christian sects in Kobani, Syria today. They recognize that you cannot rely upon any common morality for survival. They face a group of people many of whom by the time they were kindergarden age knew that all Christians and Jews should be killed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 01:50AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: fluffinatorb ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:39AM

Really? The middle east conflicts as a justification for the need of god sourced morality. I would venture to point out that supernatural origins of morality are the source of all the problems of the middle east.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cupcakelicker (drunk) ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 03:22AM

If you believe in a judgmental God, your "morality" is suspect. Doing good out of fear of eternal burning in a fiery pit isn't exactly my definition of "leading a moral life." Sounds more like being manipulated, coerced.

Pick a first principle, something based on love or making people happy, rather than fear of unending torment. Rebuild your moral code from that. It may not be perfect, but you'll understand it, and you can adapt it to your own situation instead of having it dictated to you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Canadian lurker ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 06:44AM

Have known many religious people (mainline Protestant) and many atheists. Have seen both raise decent moral children. I read on this site many examples of Mormon families shunning children or parents who leave the religion. Can't imagine any atheistic family doing that to a member who became religious. Takes belonging to a culty religion which demands obedience to an authority figure to deaden one 's heart to that extent

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dimmesdale1 ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:15AM

are really manmade rules in the end because god is manmade.

How can you use CHRISTIAN nazis to try to prove your point. They were CHRISTIAN and "following what they decided were god's rules."

ALL rules made on earth are made by man.

the Bible was made by man.

WE just do the best we can with what we have; the best of us trying to make rules that benefet the most of us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: quickman ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:16AM

I am so tired of the discussion about morality and God and what many Christians fail to realize is that the sound like psychopaths when they claim there is no morality without God.

Christianity fails as a moral system, and it fails hard, and let me explain why. I break down this into three categories.

1. The Euthyphro dialemma
2. Beneficial behavior
3. Moral subjectivity

1. I don't know how many of you have heard of the Euthyphro dilemma. It was originally thought by Plato in ~ 400 B.C.

The Euthyphro dilemma says that there are two possible explonations for morality.

a.) Moralliy is decided by God
b.) Moralliy is what benefits mankind.

Think of it like this. If there are two persons, we can call them Andrew and Bob. Andrew think that murder is ok Bob does not think murder is ok. Which one of them is right? Neither or both, because it's only a matter of opinion and an opinion can never be wrong. Sure one person can be a president or a professor and the other can be hobo or drug addict, but it doesn't change anything it's still only an opinion.

If a God would exist than the God would have the ultimate authority and be able to decide what's correct.

The problem with this is that what the God would decide to be moralliy accurate should always be considered to be moral even if what the God does is horrible.

Take the great fllod for instance. The biggest genocide in the history of mankind. Morally correct because God says so.
Killing all the first born babies in Egypt - morally correct because God says so.
Keep all the virgin as sex slaves after winning a battle - morally correct because God says so.

Which leads us to the second point, which is beneficial behavior. A philosopher, I don't remeber who, coined this term and he said insted of saying that God is the author of morality what benefits mankind should be considered morally correct.

Think of it like this

Life is preferable over death
Freedom is preferable over slavery
Health is preferable over sickness
Peace is preferable over war
Equality is preferable over inequality

and so on...

This is pretty much universal. Sure there are a few people who liked being mistreated, but they are very few it's not worth mentioning

So we as a society should strive after what benefits everyone. The overwhelming majority of people have a understaning of kindness and fairness. We have empahy and we don't like see other people getting hurt, so we strive not to hurt anyone.

In a religious society where the morality is dictated by God we don't always strive for these things. Many parts of society is very unequal, i.e gay rights because of religion.

And the third point. Many Christians fear that morality will be subjective without God. That what's considered to be morally correct change when society does so. This is true and it has always been the case even within Christian societies.

200 years ago most Christians in both Europe and North America supported slavery. Today almost no Christian support slavery.

400 years ago Christians thought homosexuals and "whitches" should be killed. Today Almost no Christian think so.

Christian morality is every bit as subjective as secular morality.

And think of it like this:

If you are a Christian and you would lose your faith tomorrow would you all of a sudden change your mind about murder. Would you think murder would be ok without Go?

If the answer to that question is yes, than I am seriously disturbed by you and you have shown that the only reason you don't kill people is because of obidiance and not because you think it's morally wrong.

If the answer is no than you have just shown that what you consider to be morally correct has nothing to do with your religion.

And if I as an atheist should be convinced that a God exist I would still think God is an immoral thug not worthy of worship. I would rather burn in hell forever than bow infront of a megalomanic genocidal tyrant.

And watch this youtube clip. This is what you sound like when you claim that morality can not exist without God.

http://youtu.be/9AkAcNyvV4M?t=19m18s

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:51AM

quickman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so tired of the discussion about morality and
> God and what many Christians fail to realize is
> that the sound like psychopaths when they claim
> there is no morality without God

My argument is parsed differently than this. I'm not arguing that all morality comes from a deity. I'm far more concerned with what grants a moral framework the authority over others. It's an issue of stability, continuity and authority.

The framers of the U.S. Constitution saw fit to pen a document that immediately upon its approval placed some of its foundational rights above their authority to ever alter them. That's unusual, and its something we have benefited from greatly.

We do not enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness at the whim of any political system or monarch. We live under the ideal that any political system or monarch in our system is subservient to the basic rights bestowed by the deity. There is no higher authority.

My examples here demonstrate that this level authority coupled with an embrace of basic human rights has made us a country that often upholds the highest level of morality. It also instills a desire in our people to fight for these rights to benefit others at great personal risk and with no reward other than securing freedom for others. That's also very unusual.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:29AM

To me it's completely ridiculous to think that people actually think that without God in my life, I would end up as an immoral, anything-goes kind of gal.

I was born deeply moral and I was not raised with a god at all. I didn't go searching for God until I was a teenager. And now that I've put God behind me, I'm still the same person. I think I'm even more moral than I was with God in my life. The difference now is that I feel no need to impose my own personal values on other people, or judge them by my own standards.

By morals, I mean that I have always had a deep set of personal values. One example, if you're going to talk about the Biblical kind of morality, is that when I joined the Mormon Church, I already didn't believe in sex outside of marriage. I don't know why. No one taught me that. I just felt that way.

I've always had a deep sense of honesty and integrity, and of right from wrong. Always. It's just my nature. It doesn't come from a god. I've always had a desire to treat people with kindness.

Even on YouTube, where one can be completely anonymous, I will not say something unkind. I won't. It would be against my nature to do so. One time I was watching a program about difficult kids and I typed, "Wow, what a brat!" That's the only negative thing I've ever said. But it didn't sit right with me and I had it deleted within about 3 minutes. I thought, "No, that was not fair. The kid did start trying at the end of the show."

My sister is raising her children without a god and her kids are wonderful young human beings. At 10 and 12, I can already see that they have a deep sense of honesty and integrity. They are kind and loving to one another and towards others.

I guess it depends on how you want to define morals, but that's what it's about to me personally. To me, it's about the values that one holds dear. I think that everyone has their own set of values, no matter what those values are. Unless they're a severe psychopath, everyone has some sense of values that are important to them. Maybe they even do too, although they might be different from ours.

Yes, when we live within a society, there must be some sort of consensus on the values that our society will hold, in spite of someone's own personal values, but we work it out so that it can represent everyone's civic rights as best as possible. That's why we have struggles like we do now concerning same sex marriage.

It's not easy to find a compromise that everyone can live with sometimes, but we try our best. That's when sometimes majority rules. But that can happen whether God is honoured in that society, or not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:44AM

I see morality as being a familial and social contract. We are deeply social creatures. We must behave in a way that benefits the larger society. Morality evolves along with a society. We have a deeper understanding now than in olden days that people should be treated fairly even if they have a different religion, skin color, or sexual orientation. We simply ascribe to "God" ideas that we have already come up with.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: False Doctrine ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:48AM

I always wondered the same thing. What motivates an athiest or heathen to be a "good" person? Now that I am at my stage of disbelief I have had my epiphany...Love is real.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:45AM

+1 Exactly. Compassion and empathy and integrity. That is all you need and "morality" will follow. But even granted that we cannot always be compassionate and honest there's still that pesky little detail that we actually care what other people think of us. And we care about what we think of ourselves, and we care about not getting caught and we care about our mental health and on and on. Should being good for the sake of goodness fail for you then you do it for the sake of appearance, and should that fail then generally society will want to punish you. It is certainly not any gods that keeps morality in place, we are perfectly able to do it ourselves.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 08:51AM

Well, there's the most obvious "standard" first: being "moral" is the best way to succeed in a society of human beings.

If I want a stable, successful existence in a society of human beings, I need the other humans in my society to like me, trust me, do business with me, socialize with me -- because I need the things they sell and make, I need them to buy the things I make or do, I need friends for support and help, and I need to be able to choose a mate.

If I lie to the other people in my society (and get caught), steal from them, beat them or rape them or kill them, etc., then they're not going to associate with me, do business with me, socialize with me, let me take their daughters for a mate, etc. They'll also very likely ostracize me or kick me out or even kill me, to avoid harm to themselves.

If I treat them well, if I'm honest with them, if I help them when they need it, and if they trust me, they'll associate with me, do business with me, let me take their daughters for a mate, and help me when I need it.

So the most obvious path to a successful, peaceful, comfortable life in a society of humans is to treat them well. Treating them poorly leads to a lack of success and probably my own death. It would be stupid to treat them poorly.

There's also, as others have already stated, and which is related to the above, the "golden rule" -- I don't want to have people steal from me, assault me, lie to me, rape me, or kill me...if I do those things to THEM, then I'm tacitly agreeing that it's OK for them to do those things to ME. It's NOT OK for them to do those things to me. So I can't do those things to them.

Yes, that's all based ultimately on selfishness -- my desire to succeed and thrive in a society of humans. It's no less selfish than wanting a glorious reward in a magical heaven, though -- and blidly "obeying" the supposed rules of a supposed god who will supposedly decide if I get to that glorious heaven or not. And it's far more rational than the "heaven" thing, since societies and other humans are real. It also puts a burden on me to decide (or participate in deciding) what the rules of my society's "morals" should be, rather than simply accept the supposed "revealed word of god."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: generationofvipers ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 09:33AM

I agree that atheists can and do act as "morally" as anyone else. But that is beside the point.

I agree that we can formulate maxims and that we might have some ideas about how to get along in society. That is beside the point also.

I am trying to go one deeper. Why SHOULD I?

If I am a psychopath who believes that the worst thing on the planet is for people to be happy and that it is utterly immoral for me to share, to care, and to love someone else, then what rationale can be offered to counter my personal beliefs?

Many of the responses also commit the is/ought fallacy.

I do not claim that morality is impossible without God. I do not deny that "God" has often been the source of much of what we consider immoral. But again, who are we to say?

In a universe of radical, existential moral freedom, with each of us making up our own morality based on our whims, how can there possibly be any "shoulds"?

It just seems impossible to balance competing claims, to motivate those who need that strong motivation, to build a society, etc., on pure subjectivism or even inter-subjectivism.

We just get back to "I like this and I don't like that" morality. It might be all we have.

But it sure is a shaky foundation for this slew "pharisaical" attacks on the "morality" or "evil" of anyone or anything else: New Atheists, the Mormon Church, violent Islamic Radicals, etc.

So when you say "I am an atheist/agnostic and Richard Dawkins' idea of aborting Down's Syndrome fetuses is evil," it is simply nonsensical. All you are really saying is "I don't like that idea, it makes me feel icky inside."

I don't think anyone has answered tall man, short hair's posts. The post by false doctrine is very interesting, I will have to think more about it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:29AM

If you have to ask "why you SHOULD be moral"? I find that frightening.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 10:29AM by blueorchid.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:23AM

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have to ask "why you SHOULD be moral"? I
> find that frightening.

That may be so, but it doesn't follow that you need to share it.

There is nothing wrong with thinking about morality, and in an ex-mo context it's crucial. Sharing your fear of the topic or your fear of those who raise it only dampens the ability for others to discuss it if they need to. You're free to share your fear of course, just as I'm free to say it isn't useful and is wildly beside the point.

Fact is, the OP's general concern is correct. As John Gray continues to point out, our generally atheist and secular western culture (U.S. notwithstanding) is squeamish on this topic, and our morality continues to survive on the dying fumes of Christianity. Many scoff at this and deny it, but it is a sociological fact nonetheless.

This topic should be encouraged, not discouraged. I can't think of one mormon in my TBM past or today that doesn't hold the premise that sans god means sans morality. Every newbie ex-mo has to struggle with that on the way out. The OP's question is more than just legitimate, it is vital.

Human

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:38AM

Let me be clear. I have no fear of the topic. But thank you so much for your chastening.

I am frightened by the thought that people can think of no reason to be good to each other besides God.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 09:54AM

generationofvipers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I struggle to find any real grounding for ethics
> without a belief in a god, or at least a godlike
> ultimate universal basis for morality like the
> "Eternal Law" we heard about in church.

"God" was created by humans. Humans created the "godlike ultimate universal basis for morality." Members of a culture said, "We think this is good and this other is bad," then they manufactured invisible enforcers -- deities -- to give weight to those ideas about morality.

Human morality is grounded in empathy and the general survival tactic of reciprocity. Godlike morality boils down to a very simple idea: don't mess with each other, try to help each other instead.

Morality isn't that hard. Agreeing about points of morality is. Agreeing which human-invented deity is the ultimate author of morality is why some wars are fought.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: archytas ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:12AM

Ethical nihilists aren't allowed over to my house for dinner.

You can't trust them.

---

Reason is the grounds for morality. Everyone relies on reason to make ethical decisions whether they realize it or not. Theists/non-theists ultimately rely on reason.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 10:24AM by archytas.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:23AM

Morality is a religious word and is about as valuable as a belief in a god that can't be proven to exist and has a different set of his own morals according to what religion he happens to represent.
Different God=Different Agenda.

This renders the use of the word moral useless because it could be dependent on a myriad of different codes such as the few you named. In some cultures it would be moral to stone someone you know? So what the hell is "religious morality" and how dare anyone pretend it doesn't shift constantly like sand dunes?

EVOLUTION. The passage of DNA from generation has left most of us with an innate understanding of teamwork. We have learned that one hand washes the other.

I feel good when I play well with others, when I help others. This doesn't come from some religion. This comes from common sense. Goodness feeds itself. Cooperation and boosting each other up is its own reward.

I know how to be a good person all on my own. I don't need a prophet or a priest or a pope to tell me how. I'm not that stupid or lazy and I don't need a religious code to define me.

You can keep your religious based morals and your sundry gods who can't agree on anything either. I prefer honest to the bone in the genes goodness which is much easier to tap into when you quit pretending there is a God. What a crutch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 10:25AM by blueorchid.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Truthisms ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:37AM

Blueorchid wrote:

>If you have to ask "why you SHOULD be moral"? I find that >frightening.

Is this an attempt at high comedic irony, or are you being serious?

Using the word "moral" implies a should, so how in hell can you say it is frightening to ask for should for your should?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:13AM

It bothers me greatly that there would even be a question about the "should" factor. Reciprocity, working together, helping each other are the ideal choice that benefit everyone. Why would anyone stop to consider their value. I do find it disconcerting that anyone does not want to join in on that value system.

Having real values is very different than abiding by religious fueled morality.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ThinkingOutLoud ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:42AM

Be good without God? Because it's good for both you and the God believers. Keep your self and others unlike you as safe and free from harm as you can, because that is good for both of you. Educate yourself and others equally and with known facts, because that helps keep all humans from going hungry. Not being hungry helps keep all of us at peace with one another and being at peace with one another leads to fewer illness, wars and violent deaths.

Humans are both good and bad without God. Humans are both bad and good with God. To me any God is unnecessary to throw into the equation, because adding him to it does not solve the problem. It does not balance the equation and it is the inequality of the equation which is fucking up the entire formula.

Proud if myself, but only a little, for being a lit and humanities major but framing that in mathematical terms.

People killed before god, stole, lied and cheated, before the Christian or any God, and they did the same after abd at the same rate and extent, too. Sometimes they do these things with what they say us a gods blessings or because a god told them to. Holy wars, westward expansion, jihads, ethnic cleansing and wars for land or oil mainly, although perhaps subconsciously, start out that way.

I tell my kid, hey, don't run into the street without thinking or looking. Not just because he might get hurt, but because he might cause a car to crash while avoiding him and hurt the driver, and also make his dad and me angry and sad.

We teach him that this world is full of many that count, not just with Hims, Mes and Yous.

I realize that this earth can only support and feed so many and that not everyone us willing to do things the peaceful way or even leave peaceful people well enough alone. Humans are humans and will always fight to survive. Most will exploit the weaknesses of others or act to manipulate circumstances to unfairly get, whatever it is they want.

Gods dont fix that error in us. Gods, being made up and man made constructs, simply are used by their creators, to justify and set up ground rules for how, who and when we kill and commit atrocities, and whether or not we are willing to feel bad about it, afterwards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 10:44AM by bookratt.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: mrtranquility ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 10:53AM

"The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt: http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

This book changed the way I see morality. However, even before I read it, I had given up on the idea of a creator-based source of morality. This was just based on my own anecdotal observations, e.g. having a fundamentalist Christian coworker who I would not trust any farther than I could throw him and a atheist friend who I would trust implicitly. There always seems to be a disconnect between espoused beliefs and actual moral behavior.

IMO morality is a phenomenon of human evolution to promote behavior that benefits the group. That's it. Since my own departure from a faith-based narrative, my values and behavior have changed very little.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:11AM

You raise one of the most important ex-mo topics, and you shouldn't be sneered at for doing so. We shouldn't be using this topic to pose our superiority over others etc. We seek to leave that behind. Frankly, this topic should be raised more often.

Once we go through all the problems with 'the church' and our righteous anger and deep hurt, and once we've settled our family and friends and co-worker problems, some of us are left with an, "okay, what now? How shall I live? What's right, what's authentic, what's best?" How should we proceed?


For my part, I battled Existentialism's reversal of Plato and pondered the idea that existence precedes essence. I lost that battle. I discovered that for whatever reason, if I'm to be honest, I had to admit that I am Platonic by nature. So I ended the struggle, reversed again the Existentialist premise and lived happily ever after. It may be 'weak' in some people's eyes, but I gave the trinity a recast and now feel guided by Truth Beauty and Goodness.

What is True, Good and Beautiful? Well, that's something I take as it comes.

Human

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:12AM

This topic came up recently in our local newspaper, where a lay Christian minister wrote a column claiming that morality comes from God. I responded with this in my own column:

-------------
In a recent guest editorial in this paper under the title "Without religious ideas, how do we define morality?" Dr. Tim Powell suggested the topic is "worth discussing." I agree, and I accept the invitation.

Dr. Powell suggests that we need an "objective standard of ethics ...upon which all society can agree." That is probably the original meaning of the term "morals," based on the Latin word "mores" which simply meant "customs," meaning the customs which a society agrees on and often codifies into its secular or religious laws. I still agree.

But then he suggests that religion will provide that "objective standard." Here we part ways. Although he does not specifically say that by "religion" he means the Judeo-Christian religion, he does not mention any other. The implication that those who have no religion, or a different one, are therefore incapable of being moral would certainly be offensive (and incorrect) to the part of the American population who are in that category.

I have no doubt that the morality of many Americans is indeed based on their Judeo-Christian religion. One Christian asserted to me that if it were not for his Christian beliefs, he would be a mean alcoholic who would romance the neighbor's wife, cheat on his taxes, and beat his dog. I am truly happy that his religion-based morality protects us all from him.

But even the Judeo-Christian religion does not provide an "objective standard." Not even the Christians can agree on the specifics. Some Christians assert that religion tells them the use of contraceptives is immoral. Others say it's not. Some say it is immoral to work on a certain sacred day (unable to agree on which day that is), others say it may be a sin, but not immoral. Some religious believers consider eating bacon to be immoral, or drinking a glass of wine, but that smoking a cigarette is not immoral. Other religious-based moralists hold the opposite. And none can convince those who disagree. So where is the "objective standard"?

Nor does religion as a base for society's morals have a good track record. It was religious morality (Judeo-Christian) that condoned slavery, the burning of witches and heretics, and the inferior status of women. It is religion-based morals in many Islamic countries that we Americans (even Christians) find abhorrent.

Dr. Powell suggests that deciding what is moral is not simply checking a list of do's and don't's. He will find that many devout Christians will strongly disagree, such as those who are advocating the posting of the Ten Commandments in schools and government buildings. Those Ten look like a list to me. The real basis for morality, Dr. Powell suggests, is the love that he says emerges from God. That may well be a lovely thought, but it is not of much practical value in deciding what is right and wrong.

A believer in God may well believe that God, and belief in God, is the source of his morality, and (like my Christian friend) that may well be true. But that is not the only available source for morality, any more than Supermarket X is the only source for groceries. You may get all your food there, and believe it is the very best source, but others may have a different source.

The study of ethics and morality is a major part of philosophy and psychology, and scholars there rarely see religion as their basis. Deciding on what is right or wrong, or good or bad, in any specific situation is often not an easy choice. Simple rules like "What would Jesus do?" are no better guide than Jiminy Cricket's song "Always let your conscience be your guide." There is often no clear answer, even in the religious rule books or the statutory penal codes.

What is clear is that each person who is faced with a moral choice must realize 1) that almost all such decisions may have both good and bad consequences; 2) that one must weigh all possible consequences; and 3) that the one making the choice is responsible for those consequences. And nobody else. I won't stick my nose in your moral choices if you keep away from mine.

Not everyone will make the same choice. But if we value our freedom, we must be very cautious in trying to force our choices on others. That, in my view, is the height of immorality.
-------------------

One only has to read a few chapters of a good introduction to ethics to realize that such religion-based systems do not even begin to help with ethical and moral answers, because they do not even recognize the complex moral problems.

In the wake of the 2000 school shooting, Newsweek Magazine, whose cover story in its March 13 issue was "Murder In The First Grade," did a feature story inside called "How Kids Learn Right From Wrong" (pp 33-34). It was an excellent survey of the latest research and findings from child psychologists and educators, and traced the development of the moral sense in the child, and what promotes it and what destroys it. It was fascinating. For example, they have determined that the very young child is by nature empathetic, and feels the emotions of another child who is hurt or sad. It seems to be instinctive. The child then develops under the influence of the kind of environment it has, whether filled with conflict or with love. It learns by imitating what it sees.

And there was not a single word about religion! (And this in a magazine which had about four cover stories in the same year on Jesus, Biblical Prophecy, the Pope's Holy Land visit, etc.!)

The Smithsonian Magazine cover story for its January 2013 issue is "Are Babies Born Good?" And again, no mention of religion or God:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/science-nature/Are-Babies-Born-Good-183837741.html?c=y&story=fullstory

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:22AM

Dogs don't know from a deity. All I can tell you is from me.

Me, I am a rescue dog. I know what it is like to be treated like ₵ʁ₳Ᵽ, to feel like no one cares if you hurt or not. To not be considered as a creature who even matters. To be in pain, physical and emotional. I can tell you it stinks.

I decided a long time ago that I did not want to do anything that would make another creature feel like that. That I wanted to do better than that. Not to please a deity, but to please ME.

Besides that, being loved is the nicest feeling in the world and I would not do anything to change or jeopardize that.

Reggie
The Happy StalkerDog™

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:36AM

Oddly, the most NON-religious countries in the world and the more non-religious states in the US have the lowest incidences of murder, divorce, child abuse, teen pregnancy, and just about every other indication of societal problems.

The most religious countries (and US states) consistently have the highest rates of those problems.

Of course one cannot assume a cause-and-effect relationship, but it is interesting, and seems to belie the claim that you can't be "moral" without God.

In the US prison population, less than 2% of the inmates are non-religious, even though the non-religious segment of the population is about 20%.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Human ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:40AM

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In the US prison population, less than 2% of the
> inmates are non-religious, even though the
> non-religious segment of the population is about
> 20%.

This statistic hides the number of inmates that "get" religion while incarcerated as opposed to being religious before incarceration.

Options: ReplyQuote
Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Good Clean Fun ( )
Date: October 17, 2014 11:50AM

Fascinating insights and questions raised here. The two arguments for ethical behavior that most resonate with me currently are, first, behave in ways that benefit society in general because that benefits me, too. The second is closely related and perhaps fundamentally the same: there are some behaviors (cheating on my wife, for example) that, for some reason I don't fully understand, would not sit well with me and would cause me personal discomfort.

One thing that fascinates me about this, though, is that it indicates that in more primitive societies, when groups of people were much more isolated, marauding and pillaging was moral. When my Viking ancestors killed several coastal villagers, stole their material wealth, and brought back slaves for labor and DNA diversification, they were gaining favor in the eyes of their tribe and benefiting the tribe as well as themselves. Today, I find that kind of behavior terrifyingly objectionable. But perhaps my repulsion is only fueled by the globally connected circumstance of Homo Sapiens today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2014 11:51AM by Good Clean Fun.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.