Posted by:
MyTempleNameIsJoan
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Date: October 26, 2014 05:34AM
Oh my gosh! 2 elders just left my door at 9:50, (even though they were passing their curfew). I just spent the last hour re-telling the events to my husband. It’s now 11:oo pm and I want to go to sleep but I can’t. I’m really wound up. I decided to write it down in the hope that I’ll vent and it will allow me to sleep better. (fingers crossed.) I know my encounter with these 2 will keep me tossing and turning when all my past of being lied to in the name of God and truth will keep me awake, so I might as well stay awake and vent this out.
The guys were fresh faced and sweet looking, couldn’t have been older than 18. There was no way I was going to let them leave without sharing my love of truth in return for their spew of lies. This was no easy challenge as I had to bridle my tongue a little cuz I didn’t want to make them angry or they wouldn’t listen to a word. I wasn’t sure how I was going to discuss my points about Mormon lack of truth and not be completely up front with them about my Mormon past. I had no intention of telling them about my Mormon past because for one thing it’s absolutely n*o*n*e of their business and for the other reason it would only cause them to have pre-conceived opinions about me and reject anything I had to say to them. When trying to coral slippery snakes who are selling snake oil one has to outwit the snake to avoid being bitten. One less snake walking on my street makes for a healthier street. I looked out my door viewer, saw they were 2 elders and opened it up ready to share – but on MY terms, not theirs; otherwise they would twist anything I had to say to meet their own purposes.
Me: Hi, oh you guys are the Mormons.
Elder 1: Hi, yes, we’re out sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Me: Gospel? That’s Mormon code words?
Elder 2: That’s the message of the restored work of Jesus Christ.
Me: I already know a lot about Mormonism – actually I probably know everything there is to know about Mormonism so there’s likely no point in your visit tonight. You guys are pretty much all about converting numbers.
Elder 1: No we are not about numbers. Our mission isn’t interested in getting numbers at all.
Elder 2: We aren’t at all interested in getting numbers. That’s a myth and not true.
(ppffftt, they lost me right there. I’ve been on a mission and I know for a fact that the missionary stat obsession has NOT changed.) So right away I think these 2 are completely bold faced liars and I wonder what other things they so willingly lie about. I didn’t reply to their comment and let it pass. They are the ones who claim to preach the truth and they are the ones who need to NOT lie. I put my wall up a little closer around me and guarded myself from these vipers. So much for the young and innocent missionaries who don’t know what their saying.
Elder 1: Do you believe in Jesus?
(I’m recalling this is the same opening phrase the last set of guys gave me last year.) I replied that studying religion is a passion of mine and has been since I was a kid. I know that there is a lot of beliefs about the story of Jesus and since it was written so long ago I’m not interested in it from a standpoint that they are. I have definite opinions regarding absence of details that should be present in Christian texts and non-christian texts; but my life is not about Jesus, it’s about finding morals, ethics, integrity and values based on results and I really don’t need Jesus for that. As a matter of fact, in my case the religious teachings of Jesus only muddied that for me.
Elder 2: We believe and teach morals.
Me: huh?
Elder 1: We believe that the atonement, do you know that word? The atonement is essential for salvation.
Me: if a person lives their life by a set of ethics, integrity and values they don’t need to go to a mediator for atonement. They find these within themselves first hand. (these 2 would clearly take my truths and ethics and smear them all over if I told them I was a resigned Mormon. It was none of their business and I wasn’t the one coming to their door testifying of truth, so I let them dig a hole so deep that they’d be their own witness and conscience of their deceit in the name of Jesus and God.They had no idea I knew firsthand of their first lie. They didn’t deserve my life story and I was definitely not going to give it to them under any circumstances. I would play them at their own game and make them think I believed that they were telling me the truth. Their lies only grew throughout the conversation and it was a real testament to me on just how many lies a shiney, bright, polished freshed faced Mormon missionary can tell in this modern day of post-lds.org articles.)
Clearly the conversation wasn’t going according to their script so they said, “that’s what our church provides; ethics and morals.” “Do you believe in God?”
I was curious to see what they’d say if I flat out said no to both answers, but I decided to play this game in the manner they play and see just how much I catch these 2 in their own trap.
I decided to tell them my opinions, even though it’s absolutely none of their business. Sharing that I don’t use the word God as there are many definitions of that word, and I don’t believe in some man in the sky, but I define creative power as energy and although that isn’t anything like their definition it’s more complex than that and I really can’t describe much more.
They said they understood because they don’t use the word God, but use the word “heavenly Father’.
I replied that I’m not into the word Father in the sky at all.
They didn’t reply to that and we left that topic.
They asked what I know about the Mormons.
I said that I know a lot, have a lot of contact with Mormons of all types and that I find it difficult to talk to any about this topic because I don’t like to offend them if I have a differing opinion. That many of them don’t want to hear my differing opinions and it’s a waste of time. I said that since they’ve knocked on my door I’m in a position of stating my opinions freely. I said that because researching religions is a passion of mine I’d like to have an upfront discussion, but there’s no point if a person doesn’t want to have a reasonable discussion….that the lds usually just want to convert me without any chance of debating issues that I bring up. I described how I attempted to discuss with a friend and she became upset, so I stopped doing that. big sad face from me.
The night was pitch black, my outside light was shining in their pimply faces. I said that even though I didn’t want to offend anybody why bother getting into this if a person really doesn’t want a conversation? This managed to soften them and they were more open. I said that currently I’m working with an evangelical nutjob who will not listen to a word I say if it conflicts with her belief so on the whole I don’t have much success discussing people’s belief with them.
They really softened again at that and tried to make themselves available. We stood for about an hour and the conversation took a few turns. I’ll try to put it in a nutshell. Not easy to do after I'm hyper on this.
I described that my research has shown me that everybody thinks they have the truth. They said they have the restored truth blah, blah blah and blah ad nauseum.
To that I described that I wasn’t impressed with what I learned about Mormonism and that I didn’t think that Mormons generally knew the truth about what they taught. I then gently looked them in the eyes and said, “I mean no offense to you, you’re here on my door trying to share so I’m just telling you what I think.” They softened. I quickly used the pause by bringing up people / Mormons who omit major truths when describing their Mormon beliefs and I didn’t feel that was ethical or moral. I thought that was a-moral in the name of God. That’s how I feel I said. I thought they’d turn away but they didn’t. I continued to describe my concern and couldn’t understand how omitting actual truth was in fact truthful.
They said that a lot of mormons don’t know details of Mormonism. I said, “oh, you mean they’re just interested in the social aspect?”
No reply.
I said, but what about the people who are trying to talk about their lds beliefs, like yourselves? When they don’t disclose actual truth that’s pretty alarming.
Elder 2 said, “it would be really nice if people didn’t always bring up negative things all the time.”
I said, “but people are going to bring them up because those are the issues that are important. When they are continuously hidden then it compounds the problem. The problem is that I could talk to a 70 yr old Mormon man who would believe one thing and then I could read a blog by Brittany who is a 20something convert who believed something entirely different. the problem is that so many Mormons believe different things and they can’t get on the same page. Then what’s the point of having a restored church, a catch-phrase of truth, or prophet to deliver this restored truth if they can’t help everybody get on the same page pertaining to this all important TRUTH. Blogger Brittany what’s-her-name wrote about this very topic. She wrote that people shouldn’t be scared of Mormons and offered 10 lies that non Mormons believe. She tried to set people straight on it.
Elder 2 said: yeah, people really do believe a lot of things that aren’t true about Mormonism.
Me: I went through a few points that Brittany blogger offered and said that it was alarming. One point was that Mormons don’t believe in hell. She linked to a lds site that didn’t even have doctrine that described the Mormon definition of hell which is outer darkness. How can a person like this claim to be teaching Mormonism when the very lds links they share don’t hold the actual doctrinal truth? Then it’s only propaganda – not truth. She either is intellectually dishonest, spiritually dishonest or she doesn’t have a clue. My money is on the last one. This isa lot of different things about Mormonism – both members and non-mormons alike. Then I asked Why aren’t people being taught the truth in Mormonism? You have people going out sharing their belief, linking to lds sites and none of them are offering the actual truth? Is this an attempt to mainstream Mormon beliefs? Even so it’s not including truth. This is upsetting to me. She needs to stop what she’s doing.
One elder described that yes she should stop what she’s doing. He said that as missionaries they only teach milk before meat. He actually used that phrase!
He said that many people have all kinds of inaccurate ideas about Mormons and that there’s no need for people to know all the details. That if they knew all the details they’d…….... (he didn’t finish his sentence.) I was ready to choke him and exercised extreme will power by smiling kindly and saying, “you see, that’s what I consider to be intellectual and spiritual dishonesty right there. How are you any different than Brittany the Blogger? You aren’t different at all. You came to MY door and I’m just telling you as I experience it.” I explained that I didn’t agree with this type of philosophy and it wasn’t my definition of ethics, morals, truth or integrity values. If you are coming to me to teach me, which you are, then why wouldn’t you offer the actual truth?
He said that it would take too long to teach. I said, “but there is NO full teaching at any time in the Sunday classes! Why is that?“
No reply.
He said that the lds.org has articles on the webpage that describe some of the more difficult issues. He began to write the website down. It’s really good he said.
I replied that I’ve been on it and have read the articles and even those articles don’t show the truth – they leave out huge chunks of actual detail. They omit truth! They offer some tidbits, but only very small amounts and even that is slanted in a way that will show Mormonism in a good light. The articles are very short with little to no real truthful detail. This is not ethical. The Mormon prophets don’t sign their name to it, it is unsigned. I imagine it’s written by a Mormon apologist but that’s really not cool! It’s not right. Why have a Mormon prophet delivering truth?
Elder 1 said, “I’m sure it’s been approved by the prophet.”
Me: it doesn’t say it is. Why so many assumptions if it’s all above board clear and free simple truth?
Elder 2 said, there is a lot of information that isn’t correct that is anti Mormon. You can’t believe what you read on anti Mormon literature.
I looked at these 2 with kindness and I think I mesmerized them because they just let me go on and on and on. And believe me, I can go on and on and on when I want to. I wondered if I had lost them but discovered that they were keeping up with every word I said.
I said that not only have I read the lds.org articles he is mentioning, but I did go on lds.org to research a few times and found inaccurate information and blatant omissions of actual truths in other areas as well; not just the articles. I offered one example of my research of JSmith and Emma’s meeting and marriage. Lds org glossed over the truth in a few brief sentences by giving the statement that Emma’s parents consented and it made it appear that it was all good and fine. But it wasn’t accurate at all. I went on other non-mormon sights, wiki and others which offers different views, which claimed that JS was a moneydigger, Mr. Hale didn’t approve and JS and Emma eloped etc etc.
I said, “how can I get correct information even from your own webpages? How can I trust what I read on the lds.org when it’s not even describing the accurate information. This isn’t right. This isn’t ethical teaching of any truth you claim to dominate. But, if I go on non-Mormon sites and get accurate truthful information you’ve already claimed it’s anti a few minutes ago, so any type of conversation with a Mormon will not be productive in any way….see? It’s an impossible conversation. There’s no room for honest and accurate discussion.
They were silent, Elder 1 never did give me his lds.org card. Their countenance looked grim.
Elder 1 said, “we know how Emma and Joseph were married. We know. “
I looked completely shocked because I was completely shocked at that response. I asked why isn’t lds.org writing it? That’s deceptive! People do not like this. You don’t want people to bring up these issues when you talk to them because you think it’s negative, but why are you doing this? You are causing this by not writing the truth! These are points that alarm people. Why would you think it WOULDN'T be a necessary part of a Mormon discussion? Especially when you have just claimed that you are here to preach THEE one and only restored truth through a prophet.
Then Elder 2 said, “we aren’t perfect. Nobody is perfect in the world, we make mistakes.” As if having been brought back on track Elder 1 jumped on the same meme theme with renewed zest, saying, “yes, people think we’re perfect, but we aren’t. The leaders and members aren’t perfect, we’re trying to be perfect, but we aren’t.” He offered a hopeful smile.
Having already caught him in a few conscious lies I wasn’t buying the snake oil and bill of goods they were selling.
I was going to use that perfect theme as a springboard for why the Utah Mormons experience huge numbers who are depressed and addicted to prescription drugs to escape this perfection excellence trauma, but decided to take a different approach.
Instead I said that you already told me that you are here to preach truth – restored truth of Jesus – that you have a prophet and that nobody else in the world has this access to truth – only mormons. In this case That is a very big claim and you simply cannot hide behind this ‘nobody’s perfect’ game because it doesn’t fly. It just doesn’t fly under the conditions which you’ve already presented at my doorstep. You tell me you have a prophet who can give truth – then why isn’t he giving truth? Why isn’t he signing his name to these articles? The articles aren’t even offering the truth and that’s deceptive. Why isn’t he telling you missionaries to provide the actual truth when you claim to be preaching the truth. People have to bring this up because it goes against your entire truth campaign. That’s not acceptable and I want to know why. Why isn’t the prophets past and present addressing and disclosing or correcting these non-truths on their own webpages?
Elder 1 said with eyes alight and a big smile on his face, “you can meet with the prophet and ask him yourself?”
I said, “can i? great! Give him my name and address and I’ll meet with him anytime!”
He smiled and nodded his head yes.
These guys were so full of b.s. So much for those of you who claim that missionaries are young, innocent and don’t know the truth. They have been taught the truth in so far as the Mormon lds.org lies and Bushman book can manage to rearrange and distort it through thei M.T.C. deception training. They are sent out prepared for Mormons who will contest their history because now they think they know all about the ‘real’ Mormon history.
At that point I knew that these 2 men were pedaling the Mormon deception willingly and knowingly. They looked sweet and bright faced, but they were of the same ilk as the prophet and apostles and they were covering for the prophet and apostles. I was completely disgusted. I could no longer look at them as sweet young 18 yr old guys. Now I looked at them as willing liars for LD$ inc. with a definition of lying that only fits into the Mormon dictionary and can only be understood properly by the brainwashed programmed Mormon testimony.
I said, ‘look, all the prophets from past to present have not come forward and disclosed the truth and you have every Mormon member believing something different – then you say that people don’t know what you believe and think all kinds of strange things but you say that isn’t your fault. You don’t like it if people hold your feet to the fire, but the prophet and missionaries NEED to have their feet held to the fire because you claim you are telling the truth. Then, instead of having the prophet come out and just teach the actual truth - not the series of omissions and part truths in the lds.org articels – instead of that you’d have the prophet fly a thousand miles away to have me talk to him? Are you serious? (I got wide eyed and pouty like my feelings were hurt and this avoided anger from them.)
I shared another example of blatant lying: "The prophet Hinckley went on Larry King and said that he didn’t know they taught the Adam God doctrine. He took a traditional lds doctrine and in one sentence negated it."
Elder 1 said, yes, we’re aware of that comment. He (meaning Hinckley) had lived a long time and who knows what all he was referring to.
I was shocked and stunned and said, “He knew what he was referring to. His statement was unmistakeable and if he wanted to clarify it in the prophet name of truth he could have at any time. He didn’t. Neither did the now prophet or apostles. What’s the point of having a prophet and apostles again? ”
Having come up against a dead end with their “we’re not perfect” response, Elder 1 used a different tactic and said, “we try to only teach the basics and only the simple gospel. We don’t want to get complicated and want to keep it simple. “
Elder 2, “yeah, the gospel is simple and that’s what we want to teach – not the complex things.”
Me: “you are claiming that you have the truth. Then that in itself should be very Simple! Truth in its simplest form should be just that and you tell me that you have a prophet and also apostles to teach that truth. You as missionaries are spending your own money to go out and allegedly teach that truth. (they both sorta nod which tells me that mom and dad are largely footing the bill.) I continue to say, “When you are not teaching your truth it falls under the category of simple actions not measuring up to your words. In other words, 1 and 1 just aren’t adding up to 2 here. Truth is simple. When you do not offer the truth and present that under an accepted guise and framework and then claim it’s simple truth the average person recognizes this as bs and deception. This is why people want to talk about this - it isn’t measuring up to what you've described as a truth. You perceive it as a negative but people see it as a basic lie in the name of truth that they want to discuss. That’s very simple in its most basic form.
Now you're taking this lack of truth and adding lots of complex twists and turns and that in itself is NOT simple. You have made it complex. You criticize people for wanting to bring up complexities as negative but you don’t seem to understand that it’s you who are making it complex rather than simple. Why is that?”
Elder 2 says, “we’re going over our curfew so we’ll have to leave soon. We can send the sisters to talk to you.”
I smilingly and kindly say, that’s no problem; anyway, what can the sisters tell me that you aren’t? Do they have some truth – or meat that you aren’t telling me. What’s the point? How can I discuss anything differently with them than I can with you?
Elder 1 says, “people pray about the truth and get a feeling of the spirit if it is true and they don’t need all these details.”
I say: That’s the problem! How can I pray about the information you give me, when it’s not the exact truth – or go on the lds.org site that you give me when I know firsthand that it’s not exact truth – and then you want to get me to receive a truth feeling on something that isn’t completely true or even accurately? I If I get a feeling that it’s not true you will not allow me to accept that as a real truthful response because you claim that it’s true.
I said that their definition of truth and ethics is very different than mine, and most other people, which is why people want to discuss these issues.
Elder 1 nodded that we have different definitions of truth. I interpretted that as saying that he is basically agreeing that they are liars for the church and that the church supports these lies. These 2 are aware of the lies, that much is for sure! That’s the difference between them and me. When I was on a mission I wasn’t aware of the lies. That was before Bushman and other apologists and the lds.org articles. But if they think that admitting that they know about these lies makes them seem more truthful then they have just further dug themselves into their lying pit. My dad had a saying, “give them enough rope and eventually they’ll hang themselves.” Today I saw this saying come to pass. Perhaps they will be able to sleep on it and see, but they are so completely programmed and immersed in the Mormon definition that lies are truth – and the web they spin to keep this definition alive that I’m not holding my breath on them waking up to the truth. I hold out a little hope but I don’t exactly expect them back on my doorstep anytime soon.
I drew another example of deception by talking about the movie Meet the Mormons. They said they hadn’t seen it. I said that I hadn’t either as it’s not in town yet, but I read some reviews. The problem I have with the overall theme is that it takes 6 mormons and describe their glowing lifestyles as a banner of who Mormons are….as in…..meet the Mormons. I don’t even have to watch the thing to know that this type of format is not an accurate depiction of a real cross-section of Mormonism and that is what I consider deceptive. I ask them why wouldn’t they have a more accurate representation of people who are really struggling in ways I see many Mormon people around me.
Elder 1 said with a renewed smile, “the gospel is for people who are struggling.”
I said, “if that’s the case the movie is complete p.r. propaganda because it is not depicting an accurate range of Mormons who really are struggling so I can’t believe it – it’s not truthful or in my opinion ethical. It’s depicting Mormons with a strong testimony and a pie-in-the-sky presentation with romantic lighting, scenery cinematography and soundtrack by David Arachet to gather emotions.
Elder 2, “what do you mean by pie-in-the-sky”?
Me: I mean that it’s more of an elusive dream-in-the-sky and not down to earth reality based on a cross-the- board depiction of the Mormons that I know. It’s a small select view of 6 people who do not adequately represent Mormonism. It’s not honest. It’s in keeping with this milk concept that you both mentioned earlier and that is not ethical or truthful at all. That goes against this very simple teaching of truth and convolutes it in a way that is deceptive and the opposite of truth. Why does your church do that? What do you have to hide? You may convince some people but since it isn’t in truth what have you really gained by it?
I continued: Now some people will trust what you say and take you for your word when you say that you are ordained of God through this restored priesthood – the only ones on earth with it – and the only ones on earth with the truth which YOU BOTH just told me that you lay claim to. They will believe you and yet you aren’t being upfront and honest and telling them the truth.
Why? Because you know and your prophet and apostles know that if you told people like me the truth when you come to my door – or your members the truth in Sunday meetings – that your converts would be zero and your membership would hemorrhage as everybody would be running for the doors. That’s the truth! You are on your mission standing at my door just telling me that you have THEE truth and that’s why people need to hold your feet to the fire. You make claims and you cannot just brush them under the rug and excuse yourself by claiming you’re not perfect. You have a lot of problematic issues and that’s what people want to talk about.
They both held their heads down. Elder 1 nodded in agreement that people need to hold their feet to the fire pertaining to their own expectations and assertions.
Elder 1 said, "I you are speaking intellectually and haven't been taught by missionaries or gone to church." He said, "we teach the gospel but the spirit converts."
I replied that they aren't teaching the true gospel, that's what I'm saying.
Then I explained that I read the book of mormon and went to fast and testimony meeting. That f&T is crazy, it's woo-woo. They held their heaad down in embarrassment and their cheeks flushed red.
I described the relaxation response as a spirit answer.
1)If you get an emotional feeling about that then you still aren’t getting the truth. Get it? A person is getting a feeling based on inaccurate information you’ve given them. The testimony doesn’t count. But a person who quiets themselves and relaxes – especially if they’ve never done this before - can encounter the relaxation response. This response of emotional feelings has nothing to do with anything you’ve said, or anything that could be erroneously misconstrued or interpreted by yourself as a truth (since clearly you’ve agreed that lds.org and yourself do not care to teach the truth) and more accurately this response has to do with a sense of relaxation. It’s a natural byproduct of achieving a calm relaxed state. This state, if achieved, releases chemicals and feelings. Since the feeling is already attached to the deceptive mormon teachings the person will have a belief in exactly the teachings they've been offered; no matter how erroneous.
Eastern beliefs can get into a relaxed state and call this Samadhi or Nirvana or bliss. It’s a state that has nothing to do with a yes or no answer --- it’s a state as a result of being still and quiet. That’s why many people pray and get no answer at all…....they can’t achieve this calm bliss relaxed state at the same time they’re praying about the Mormon “gospel”. If you manage to achieve this relaxation response in timing with the missionary teachings they will tell you it's a testimony.
People of all beliefs or non-beliefs can attain this feeling without even asking anything attached prior. It says that you’ve reached a calm and relaxed state and chemicals are releasing. You’re teachings erroneously couple that with a belief that it will answer the Mormon challenge. It will ensure you, the missionaries and prophet or apostles that Mormonism is true even though you have not given the truth. Somehow the person is to listen to you teach them and accept that it is truth, given by a man of God who is ordained and by the only true church who has a prophet to teach the truth --- but not supply the truth and get them to have a “good” feeling that the absence of truth is in fact the truth – even though the person is clueless as to what this truth actually entails. Deception plain and simple! Since you are claiming you’re all about truth do you understand why people need to hold your feet to the fire and demand and expect something to corroborate on a level of your claimed truth?
I continued:
2) the confirmation bias: or as I like to call it ConFORMation bias because people are willing to confirm that which is taught them out of a desire to conFORM. It’s a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, or conforms one’s feelings, leading to statistical errors. You teach and that is an implanted preconception. You provide lds documents that support this preconception implant. When the preconception is false, as you elders have already admitted to giving false or inaccurate untruthful “milk” teachings how accurate can the end feeling be? If a person is gullible and only go to your websites, because as you’ve said other sites are anti, then they may conform to the only information you allow them to view.
3) cognitive bias: This is a pattern of deviation in judgment, whereby inferences and teachings about people and situations may be drawn in an illogical fashion. For example, you teach people milk and only milk – no meat. You don’t teach me the complete truth and omit many serious issues leaving me with a completely different view of events. Then you say that you have taught the truth and are here to deliver God’s restored truth via prophet, priesthood etc. If I am at a vulnerable state and accept that you are what you say, (as Brittany the blogger convert has) that you are truthful priesthood men of God, then I will not nit-pick about the details you present. You’ve already stated that you are presenting truth restored. My judgement would then be skewed based on your presentation --- which we have already said isn’t accurate or completely true and which you’ve already told me you are here presenting the truth. This is an oxymoron – a lie but since you don’t tell people what you’re really doing they never get a chance to hear it. You are misleading people and they take you at your word. You’ve already said that you don’t want them going to anti information but we’ve already ascertained that the lds.org lies and omits huge chunks of information – which is acceptable by yourselves and the prophets who are supposed to be a truthfilled part of this restoration you’re here to preach. This ignites the cognitive aspect and makes the investigator bias to your erroneous teaching. You claim it’s the spirit, but it’s not, it’s a subsequent emotional response that bypasses the full cognitive aspect making it a cognitive bias.
If you bring the person to your church they might respond emotionally to the members and make a connection. This is your goal though. You want them to connect emotionally and physically. Therefore if they pray and get an emotional feeling that it’s true it is built on a need for an emotional social connection or a need to conform to your belief which you adamantly and fervently claim is true. Court of law and crime interrogators know this technique very well. Lawyers and interrogators can get a person to admit to something that isn’t true based on the lawyers strong stance as an authority. For example, a person might originally claim a car is blue. The person interrogating might counter them by stating that this person said the car was white, not blue. The person often caves to the authority and changes their previous story by accommodating to the authority and providing what the authority wants to hear. People tell people what they want to hear all the time, whether it’s really true or not. It takes a strong person to stand up and say, NO. Once a lawyer or interrogator ensnares a witness in this way their entire testimony can be thrown out. It happens all the time.
Essentially Elder 1 and 2, this is what you’re doing by recommending I get a good feeling by going to church and having the missionaries teach me. You are using your authority, which you adamantly claim you have. People can become intimidated by one who strongly believes and asserts that they are Gods’ representatives and has the truth. You've told me that your information is milk and we've talked about the lds webpages inacurracy yet theire the only links you allow offered. If the person is vulnerable and gets cornered to pray to ask if it’s true the Cognitive bias can and does come into play with many people. You’ve already stated that you don’t have time to teach people all the details because you say they’ll be here forever learning. I don’t agree with that at all. They wouldn’t be baptized right away, but it’s unethical to baptize a person and withhold and omit massive pieces of information that conflict with your lds teachings and then deny a person the right to do other research by stating Elder 1 that it’s anti.
I finished and paused .
Finally they spoke and said they had to go as it was well past their curfew.
Then I couldn’t resist and said, “have you read Jeremy Runnels letter?” They shook their heads no. I said that He was a missionary like you, devoted and determined that he had the truth and determined to share it. Then he researched and wrote a letter to the church education system. It’s called the CES letter. Please read it and if you want to come back and discuss issues then please do. It doesn’t take forever to teach non Mormons all the church details, like you’ve claimed. It does take a willing desire to be honest though. Do you really want to be truthful and honest? ”
They weren’t angry and neither was I. We both smiled but they looked really deflated and scurried off.
I can see why the old geezers in SLC use the young fresh faced to deceive….they’re more convincing deceivers than the older men. The missionaries are now aware of the lds.org articles and therefore are aware of some of the lies – the cherry picked info that the SLC suits want them to know. They come to the door claiming to be informed of ALL the problematic parts of Mormonism.
If they come back I’ll let you know how it turns out.
I wonder if they’ll send the sisters my way, but I expect they’ll pass on this.
Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2014 02:51PM by joan.