I invited an investigator to attend a baptism once on my mission. She was appalled. She had been a Catholic in Europe, and she had had to learn her catechism and I don't know what all, but apparently preparing for her first communion was pretty rigorous. I remember her saying, "The person being baptised didn't even speak! How do we know he understands anything? Why do we want to hear from anyone else? It's his day, he should be the one talking!"
I was really startled, but she was totally right. I guess we never encourage the person getting baptised to display their ignorance... just do it fast before they change their mind. I bet this sharp lady would have some choice words about the increased dumbing down going on.
My cousin was all over me tonight when I spoke with her, defensive.
Bit of background - I sent her links to the essays a few days ago. Before that when I mentioned these essays, she said that they were not really on the REAL LDS web site, that someone had created a fake LDS site for these (like those phony PayPal sites I guess).
Anyway, I sent her links to the essays. She got a TBM to verify that they were indeed on the LDS site since I might be lying being an Apostate and all. Yesterday when I spoke with her she said she was too tired to read them. (VERY IN DENIAL from the tone of her voice). She called me tonight and wanted to know why I had the sudden desire to go on the LDS web site for info. I have told her many times that I did not read any "anti" TBM literature which made me quit. It was the CULT itself (the bishop's nasty mouth started it but then whatever I read was not "anti".
She accused me of deliberately searching for things to make them look bad. I pointed out that I would not expect to find things about them that is bad on their own site... I am a musician with an on line business and I certainly don't write on our site that I am an awful musician, which is basically what the CULT has done for themselves.
I basically told her that there are tons of things from their own sources that make them look bad. She wondered why I'd want to know about these things. I finally told her that the CULT hurt me so bad that I wanted everyone in my family out of it ASAP including her, that I was enjoying them go down in flames and hoped it would be sooner rather than later.
I still don't think she has read them, maybe a few words of one or two of them. She is probably wondering why the CULT is putting these on their site. She doesn't want to speak of these horrors (her words, HORRORS, not mine!)
I just can't win. When I try to help I still lose.
Take comfort in the fact that she asked you why you were doing it, that she actually had another Mormon confirm for her that these were real essays on the real LDS site instead of cutting off contact with you, and that she, herself, called them horrors.
You may have done much more than you think, in trying to help her. But, just as it is true that you can lead a horse to a water but cannot make him drink, you can lead a man (or woman) to the truth, but you cannot make them think.
She may be putting this up on her shelf and with everything else she may already have up there, be overloading it in the process. It may break someday, maybe soon, and then you will have your desired result.
But, just as you would not want her to get annoying and irritating in her trying to make you see her LDS side of things, the truth from you needs to be discovered by her and accepted by her, slowly. She needs to do it herself, as much s possible, otherwise, she will believe you forced it down her throat against her will and will turn away from it, every time.
You have given her what she needs to know. Let the truth sit with her for awhile, and see what happens. Don't despair.
I agree with most of this, except the you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, like you can lead a person to the truth but you can't make them think. What the horse metaphor means is that you can't force a horse to do something it's not ready to do, but, eventually, it will be ready. Without a doubt. When a horse gets thirsty enough, they'll drink. You just have to lead it to water more than once.
People are similar. The trick we've got is dialog. Dialog about the truth eventually wins people over. Because just like the horse, when horses get thirsty enough, they'll drink. They need the water. People need the truth too. Dialog is like leading, it gives people the opportunity to drink the truth when they're thirsty enough.
LD$ Inc. knows this. That's why the gag order is always in place. "I don't want to hear this horror!" "Why would you want to tell me!" "Contention!" "You may believe what you want, but don't talk to your children about it!" "Don't criticize other people's (my!) beliefs!" "You can leave it, but you can't leave it alone." Shunning. Divorce. Shooting the messenger. These are the techniques to shut off dialogue. Dialogue is the enemy of falsehood.
Therefore, don't worry about the effects of any particular conversation. Just keep the lines open, and make sure you listen to your cousin about her personal problems and concerns, because the real damage done by LD$ Inc is the twisted views of reality it forces on people. Then the people act without wisdom, based on the stupidity TSSC pushed on them. The only people benefiting for LD$ Inc are the cronies at the top. Everyone else is victimized, and wants to talk about it. Only thy don't know who the culprit is, but you do.
When she accused you of deliberately searching for things to make them look bad, she really accused you of trying to make *her* look bad. She sees herself as a Mormon and wants that to be something superior to all other things.
It is almost incomprehensible to them that they belong to an organization that is actually bad and harmful because they think it's been so good to them and for them.
Try to get her to see that she is actually a good person who is being used and being deceived, that she is actually better than the organization to which she belongs because she would never purposely promote or condone the things the church does and hides.
It's sad but true, believing Mormons believe because of their brainwashing. They won't break free unless or until they feel it's necessary.
Most of us had to reach a state of total despair and frustration before we could realistically look at the facts. They must do the same. Until then, they live in ignorance.
RfM, exmo friends, and therapists might offer validation to us. TBMs will not.
> Most of us had to reach a state of total despair > and frustration before we could realistically look > at the facts. They must do the same. Until then, > they live in ignorance.
+10,000
Cheryl, this is what I've always maintained. That Mormons are all hanging on to the church for an emotional reason that is overriding their rational mind. Maybe it's the dream of an eternal family, maybe the fear of social annihilation, maybe it's their only source of self-esteem or purpose in life, maybe they've lost a loved one and are desperate to do all they can to be reunited. The reasons are complicated and varied but something has to break that emotional captivity (despair and frustration) before they are willing to listen to facts. For some that break is a simple as they are just bored and overworked, others have to come to a real, often horrible, turning point in their lives that makes them let go of their "blankie and binkie" the church provides. Whatever it is, you gotta let go of the table before you can walk.
I always want to say to Mormons - "it doesn't matter if the information I have is pro-Mormon or anti-Mormon. It only matters if it's TRUE. If it's true and it makes Mormons look bad I AM NOT your problem." The only thing is that they can't conceive of truth making their church look bad in any way.
And as far as the OP's comment, my Lutheran friend was also surprised that my daughter had to put little effort into getting baptized. Even though he daughter had been raised in their church, she still had to do a year of prep work in a special Sunday School class before she could be confirmed and considered a full, believing Lutheran. The LDS church doesn't want you to know too much about their church because light and knowledge never favors Mormonism.
I do want her out of the CULT because I love her very much. She is a very caring nice person (opposite of the CULT). The CULT has hurt her though she doesn't see it. She has some things on her shelf already which is why I think a few more things could get her out.
Her daughter in law is black (so 2 half black grandkids) whom she loves very much. She accepts and loves her daughter in law too. She is not prejudice like Breedum Young was and like some other TBMs are.
One (new VT for her) came to her house a few weeks ago and was going on about how black and white should not marry each other, how they'd be put to death on the spot. They didn't know her daughter was black while they were going on with this. When she mentioned it, they shut up fast. Her brother is gay. He was excommunicated while on his mission and didn't repent so he is still out. She adores him.
I am hoping. Thanks for your support, folks. It means a lot. My family means a lot to me and I hate to see them in this CULT since it hurts everyone it comes into contact with.
Yes, I was aghast when I heard that you could be baptized so quickly. I had to go through the RCIA process that took 4 years to become a catholic. How can you possibly get all the information you need to make an educated decision in a couple of weeks?