The Church survives by propagating fears and manufacturing 'spiritual' experiences. This article shows just how easy it is to convince people they're seeing and feeling supernatural entities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11214511/Ghosts-created-by-scientists-in-disturbing-lab-experiment.html

Aw, you beat me to it. I read the same story earlier, and was going to post a link here. :)

Just another chink in the fallacious claims people make about the supernatural -- another bit of evidence that it's all in our brains, not magic outside of them.

B.S.

It could be that certain frequencies "create" the illusion of ghosts, or...it could be that certain frequencies allow the mind to see and hear ghosts. Either possibility is just as possible. Dogs and small children often see ghosts, because their brain waves are different than older children and adults. Often, ghosts can be seen while just waking up, because one's brain waves is different.

I saw the ghost of a Marine Drill Sgt. killed by a private at Marine Corps Recruit Depot in 1951. I saw him. He was about 5 feet tall. NOBODY told me about this Sergeant until I started telling people what I saw, then a corporal told me. I met others who also saw him. They too, were not informed beforehand about his excistence. Which means, how could we all be "imagining" the same thing...the same guy...short Marine Drill Sgt., in old style drab green uniform, hauting the same location, when NONE of us were told about this until after the fact.

Science has NOT "proved" that ghosts are illustions. Science has proved that if the brain is in the correct "wave" then the mind and eye can see things it normally, in a fully-awake state, cannot see.

Nomomo4evermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Science has NOT "proved" that ghosts are
> illustions. Science has proved that if the brain
> is in the correct "wave" then the mind and eye can
> see things it normally, in a fully-awake state,
> cannot see.


"Science" didn't make any such claim, to have "proved" that ghosts are illusions.
And clearly somebody didn't read the article.

By the way, arguments from incredulity are fallacies -- not good arguments or evidence of ghosts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2014 07:22PM by ificouldhietokolob.

There are no such things as ghosts. Really. People have hallucinations and visions all the time, it comes from the brain, it feels real, but isn't. Dreams aren't real either. If you can't accept that, there's not much anyone can do to help you realize the reality, I just hope you don't waste much money on the supernatural. Good luck buddy.

I too read this but it seemed pretty weak to me. This is an experiment that was designed to prove its conclusion. Any serious researcher will be deeply offended by this pseudo-science.

Science can only prove something is not so it can never really prove something is so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2014 07:43PM by rgg.

rgg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Science can only prove something is not so it can
> never really prove something is so.

What a ridiculous statement.
So the scientific method hasn't proven that the earth IS orbiting the sun? It hasn't proven that water IS made of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen -- it's only proven that it's NOT made of all other combinations of atoms?

Somebody needs to go re-learn science -- and it's not me.

By the way, the experiment started with the hypothesis that inducing electrical activity in certain areas of the brain can invoke a feeling of "another presence." That hypothesis was tested, and shown correct. A perfectly valid experiment.

I'll just point out that Henry Bemis spent a great deal of text arguing (poorly) against a "popular" article written about the science -- not against the science. Perhaps he should go read the actual scientific paper...what do you think, Henry?

Agreed...I thought the experiment was a little lacking too.

I think this is a fascinating discovery. I know people (all men, incidentally) who are so convinced of the presence of evil spirits that it is a real basis of their conviction of "truth." These people have 'exercised priesthood powers' to dismiss evil spirits and now those experiences are part of their devotion to the church. To them, these experiences were very real, even more real than the Holy Ghost's influence. Of course maybe this is obvious - but these people come from an older generation of lds doctrine (not the shiny presentation the kids get today). Anybody else know of this type of 'testimony of evil spirits'?

Yup. Rife in my family, also in in-laws' family. TBM's all.

Superstitious lot, they are!

Would make my own situation of unbelief untenable with the family, should they discover or I disclose it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2014 07:56PM by moose.

"Ghosts created by scientists in 'disturbing' lab experiment
Scientists in Switzerland have shown that ghosts are probably just an illusion created by the mind when it momentarily loses track of the body’s location."

COMMENT: OR WHEN THERE IS A "GHOST PRODUCING ROBOT" IN THE ROOM WITH GHOST-PRODUCING PSYCHOLOGISTS!

"Ghostly apparitions and hauntings have pervaded folklore and legend for thousands of years, but now scientists have shown that they are just a figment of the imagination."

COMMENT: Well, what they have shown, at best, is that such experiences can be reproduced in a lab with an elaborate mechanical device that creates an illusion. Somehow, I do not think that such devices are present when under otherwise normal circumstances, "ghosts" are reported.

"Artificial ‘spectres’ were conjured up by an experiment which proved so disconcerting for participants that two begged for it to stop."

COMMENT: WAS THIS A HAUNTED HOUSE EXPERIMENT ON HALLOWEEN?

"Scientists have long suspected that ghosts are an illusion created by the mind. Patients who suffer from neurological or psychiatric conditions often report ‘strange presences.’"

COMMENT: Correct. And what is REALLY interesting is that normal people, non-pathological, also report such "strange presences." NO PATHOLOGY, AND NO PSYCHOLOGICAL TRICKS, NECESSARY.

"And people experiencing extreme physical or emotional pain often claim to have seen ghostly outlines or felt that departed loved ones were back in the room with them.:

COMMENT: And what is really interesting is that people under no such extreme physical or emotional pain often also claim to have seen ghostly outlines or felt that departed loved ones were back in the room with them.

"Now, however, scientists in Switzerland have shown that ghosts are probably just an illusion created by the mind when it momentarily loses track of the body’s location because of illness, exertion or stress."

COMMENT: They have shown no such thing. What they have shown is that they can create ghost illusions, not that all ghost experiences are illusions. What they have to show to establish this strong thesis is that such neurological conditions are both necessary and sufficient for such experiences to occur, and that they can occur spontaneously, such that "seeing ghosts" (i.e. vivid apparitions) can occur in normal contexts.

"They saw up to four phantoms positioned around them and believed that ghosts were touching their backs with invisible fingers."

COMMENT: The more illusory ghosts they can create, the more likely a "ghost experience" is illusory. I like that logic.

"Professor Olaf Blanke, from the Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne (EPFL) in Switzerland, said: "Our experiment induced the sensation of a foreign presence in the laboratory for the first time.

COMMENT: Did thy call Ghostbusters?

“It shows that it can arise under normal conditions, simply through conflicting sensory-motor signals."

COMMENT: How so? It was in a lab with robots. This is not "under normal circumstances."

"This confirms that it is caused by an altered perception of their own bodies in the brain."

COMMENT: No. It confirms that illusions of ghosts can be created in the lab by manipulating the subjects' perceptions of their bodies. That is all it shows.

"To manifest their ghosts, the scientists set up a robot device that allowed volunteers to control the movements of a jointed mechanical arm with their index fingers."

COMMENT: Right. All haunted houses are equipped with such robots.

"The movements were relayed to another robot arm behind them which touched their backs."

COMMENT: Sorry, Two robots.

"When both the finger-pushing and back-touching occurred at the same time, it created the illusion that the volunteers were caressing their own backs."

COMMENT: Wow. WHere can I get one of those robots? I mean two of those?

"That felt weird enough to the blindfolded participants. But something a lot stranger happened when the back-touching was delayed and about 500 milliseconds out of sync with the finger movements. Suddenly the volunteers felt as if they were being watched, and touched, by one or more ghostly presences."

COMMENT: Hum. Maybe all persons reporting such "ghostly experiences" are blindfolded and in the presence of robots.

"At the same time, they had the disconcerting sensation of drifting backwards, towards the unseen hand."

COMMENT: Wow, now this is getting spooky.

"When questioned, several reported a strong feeling of invisible people being close to them. On average, they counted two, with up to four being reported."

COMMENT: So, two robots, a lab and a blindfold equal multiple ghosts. Sounds like mathematics. It must be right.

"Two of the 12 healthy participants were so disturbed by the experience that they asked the scientists to halt the experiment."

COMMENT: So, when they were disconnected, did the stress make them see more ghosts?

"Co-author Dr Giulio Rognini, also from the EPFL, said: "Our brain possesses several representations of our body in space."

COMMENT: O.K. . . . SO?

“Under normal conditions, it is able to assemble a unified self-perception of the self from these representations."

COMMENT: O.K. . . . SO?

“But when the system malfunctions because of disease - or, in this case, a robot - this can sometimes create a second representation of one's own body, which is no longer perceived as 'me' but as someone else, a 'presence'."

COMMENT: Right. Now if we check all reports of ghost sightings we will surely find that all such experiences were in the context of robots or disease. Check that out and report back.

_____________

Finally, the responses here are typical "band-wagon" thinking without taking the time to assess just what is being claimed and the evidence for it. If a "psychological study" agrees with your worldview, jump on it uncritically.

That is not to say that there are real ghosts, or that such studies are not helpful to understanding human illusions. But creating an illusion of ghosts does not mean that all ghosts are an illusion, any more than creating an illusion of an elephant means that all elephants are illusory.

And post needs to cut back.

Disagree. I've had lots of spiritual/supernatural experiences.

Its not a big deal, but it is a big deal. You need faith, prayer,and then they may come. Once you've had one, your faith gets solidified, and they can keep coming.

I really don't understand why so many on this board are so close minded.

And yes BTW, I'm an exmo and have been for 5 years. I've had experiences both as a tbm and as an exmo.

If you don't have faith and humility, then they won't come.

If you haven't exersized deep humility, faith, prayer, patience, then who are your to say they don't happen?

Its like this, if someone gets into a car without gas and then complains that the car won't go. In order for the car to go you need a job, have money, buy the gas, turn the ignition, and then it will go. If you don't do the preliminary steps then nothing will happen.

My ex was a former medium and saw ghosts all the time. For 20 years she told me things that were impossible for her to know, because her spirit guides told her. We had plenty of supernatural experiences. Some were pretty incredible. It all comes down to faith. If you believe in miracles and are open to them, they will come.

A lot of exmos throw the baby out with the bath water. TSCC twists the good things so it takes a while to get it all sorted out.

Is your ex / medium in Utah? Which city? I getting ready to try one as I am definitely a believer because of my experiences.

She hasn't been a medium for many years, ever since one of her clients came with a very powerful demon. She only had a few of her spirit guides with her and the thing nearly killed her.

Thanks for the info. Based on what you said I was sold on your ex but that is ok. I live near Ogden and there are a few in the area. Since I have had some different experiences in this area, I will talk to them first and get a good feel for what I expect versus how they work and what I should expect and maybe get a little education at the same time. I see it as a possible way that my departed Mormon deceased will be able to tell me and my TBM family members the church is a scam and maybe a little about the true God. The deceased should know now the church is a scam shouldn't they???

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You need faith, prayer,and then they may come. Once you've
> had one, your faith gets solidified, and they can keep coming.
> ...
> If you don't have faith and humility, then they won't come.

And it's the same with the fairies. If you believe in them, you might see them. But if you don't believe in fairies, then, sadly, you will never, ever see a fairy! And once you've seen a fairy, you will see more. And more. And more. So believe in fairies!

I have had a number of supernatural experiences as a Mormon then almost a hundred more after leaving. Have not yet been able to control it and recently had spotty success as I have been pretty busy on other things. But I cannot doubt the numerous ones I have had. Many have been very helpful. There are plenty of books in the library on psychic and medium exercises to try for those that really have an open mind.

I'm not disagreeing with the reality of anyone's positive spiritual/other-dimensional/thin veil experiences, but I am amazed at how much evil spiritual experiences are tied to Mormonism. (Joseph in the grove for example. Stories from apostles before their calling comes...things like that). Does the experience of the evil supernatural amount to some sort of validation to Mormons? (And men, in particular, with their authority to cast Satan out?)

Such crappy logic on so many levels that you almost wonder if these people do not write essays for the cult in their spare time. Really really stupid. Truly pointless. My brain hurts now.

I never said this experiment proves there is no such thing as ghosts, and neither did the scientists. I said it shows how people can be manipulated to think they're seeing and feeling things that aren't there.

I've heard stories of mormon missionaries and other priesthood holders casting out evil spirits from people's homes. Joseph Smith told of the Devil trying to destroy him to stop him restoring the Gospel, and of how he rules the waters trying to drown people.

I am open-minded. When I went to the temple I thought I might see deceased church member relatives again. And I grew up with the doctrine that if you something appeared to you, you were to put your hand out to see if it had a body.

Also, I was taught that the bad third who followed Satan were around all the time, laughing at us and tempting us and wishing us harm. Mormonism is creepy stuff. In testimony meeting, one woman told the story of how another woman had committed adultery, and immediately after had seen members of the bad third delighting in her sin and mocking her.

JS' treasure hunting rituals and bleeding pirate first vision account show he was very interested in occult practices.

Blessing the home to keep evil spirits out is another supernatural mormon practice, as is the wearing of garments for protection. Not to mention the doctrine that deceased family members are all sat around watching your every move.

I have on rare occasions seen shades or shapes with roughly human form. But these images were very fleeting. And I was diagnosed with epilepsy as an infant. Why should I expect these apparitions to be something more meaningful than a glitch in my perception?

One teeny tiny fact that some people don't know about is that perception is NOT a one way process. Expectations and bias play a major role in what you see. An important, automatic bias is for people to see faces, eg the face of Jesus on a slice of toast. An interesting example of expectations is how the brain fills in the blind spot in your field of vision with what you expect to be there, so that you aren't even consciously aware that the blind spot exists.

What is exciting about the research is that it shows how unusual sensory information can lead to the brain feeling a presence when no presence is actually there. It brings us one step closer to understanding the conditions that lead to ghostly feelings and hallucinations.

IGP: "One teeny tiny fact that some people don't know about is that perception is NOT a one way process. Expectations and bias play a major role in what you see. An important, automatic bias is for people to see faces, eg the face of Jesus on a slice of toast. An interesting example of expectations is how the brain fills in the blind spot in your field of vision with what you expect to be there, so that you aren't even consciously aware that the blind spot exists.

COMMENT: I agree that this is interesting and important research. However, what does this have to do with "creating supernatural experiences?" Seeing Jesus' image on a slice of toast has nothing to do with the "supernatural" unless a person thinks that there is some metaphysical significance to such an experience, which most people would not!

IGP: "What is exciting about the research is that it shows how unusual sensory information can lead to the brain feeling a presence when no presence is actually there. It brings us one step closer to understanding the conditions that lead to ghostly feelings and hallucinations."

COMMENT: Human experiences, of whatever nature, presumably are caused by something. A causal explanation is one that offers an environmental context as the cause of an experience, whether normal or paranormal. In the OP "study" an artificial environment was created to induce "paranormal" experiences. Thus, the specific experiences are explained by the manipulative environment that generated them. How does this "bring us one step closer to understanding the conditions that lead to ghostly feelings and halluncinations," when the vast majority of such experiences occur without the causal element artificially created in the study. It tells us that human beings are capable of having such experiences by artificial means. It says absolutely nothing about the causes of such experiences absent such artificial means. In fact, one might interpret the study as confirming "ghostly" experiences, since science cannot produce the experience without resort to rather bizzare contrivances. I would be more impressed if they offered a simple chemical explanation, showing that persons having consumed a substance containing such chemical saw ghosts; e.g. LDS. The problem, of course, is correlating the chemical with the experience.

Neither chemicals nor tightly controlled scientific experiments will provide the answer because people are driven to seek causation and attribution is controlled by expectation.

Or, how you explain what your senses give you is the biggest determinant in your being a healthy, well-adjusted person.

As Richard Packham put it, if you want to see fairies, you have to believe in fairies. Or, you are lacking in faith if you don't see them.

So we are back to the shamanistic manipulation of religious followers, i.e., "You will see ancestors in the temple because they are standing around, hiding in the curtains, etc." Of course you have to be "worthy" (ie, have faith) and prove it by paying the shaman, er, the church.

I had a hilarious experience along these lines when I helped a woman who was crying on a train. She was sobbing to her cousin that she was unable to get her 21 year old daughter out of a mental hospital. My heart went out to her since I have a disabled son and had to rescue him from the dangerous California mental health hospitals myself. So I tapped her on the shoulder and said, "Excuse me, but I know how to free your daughter."

I told her to tell the mental hospital the family is leaving the state and taking her daughter with them. Tell them you will take the guardianship of your child and they need to release her to you. They will present you with papers, you sign, you leave. Whether you leave the state or stay after that is up to you.

Fast forward six months. I am in the San Jose train station exiting the ladies room and I see a commotion. A group of black ladies are pointing at me and whispering. Suddenly they burst into "Hallelujahs" and one of them shouts, "She's REAL!"

There was the mother who presented her daughter to me, praising God, her words tumbling over each other with tears running down her face. The whole family had been thanking God for months for sending an angel on the train to give a message to their dear sister.

They gave a spiritual experience interpretation to the random kindness of a stranger because of their paradigm, their religio-social construct, which advances itself by interpreting coincidences as spiritual experiences.

Mormonism adds a self-promoting flourish to this by adding the conclusion that such "experiences" prove the church is true.

Everything happens for a reason?

No, it doesn't.


Kathleen Waters

PS. If she'd been Mormon, maybe I would have become one of the three Nephites who donned a wig for a disguise....

Wow what a story! So glad you could help. Angels don't always have wings.

anagrammy Wrote:

> They gave a spiritual experience interpretation to
> the random kindness of a stranger because of their
> paradigm, their religio-social construct, which
> advances itself by interpreting coincidences as
> spiritual experiences.
>
> Mormonism adds a self-promoting flourish to this
> by adding the conclusion that such "experiences"
> prove the church is true.
>
> Everything happens for a reason?
>
> No, it doesn't.

This bears repeating. The crushing need to invent stories to "explain" events is so instinctual that there will always be a way to make a buck from it. I call it our bullshit generator, and whole, vast industries are based on it. It's so refreshing to run across someone else who knows most of what happens is just chance, anagrammy. Great post.