I've always been a little more in-the-know, what with my parents being so faithful and always holding high ward or stake callings. My father was ordained into the stake presidency, and 6 months or so later, Elder Hales of the 12 came to our humble stake.

Before the stake conference started, he took the stake presidency's families, plus a few others, into the high council room for some Q&A. Looking back on it, it was more like the Mormon version of a celebrity photo-op, only instead of cameras you got to bare your testimony of it the next fast Sunday.

I was just home from my mission, and my faith was in its death throws, though I didn't realize it then. I still considered my self TBM and had fond memories of spiritual experiences I'd had beforetime, though they'd now ceased. I was kind of in a depression, but I was there with everyone to enjoy our "treat.”

The room asked questions like you would a celebrity. What's your favorite color, food, what kinds of things do you like to do? They asked about the other brethren's likes and pastimes. The most interesting it got was a question about the work in China. Elder Hales said that there was some kind of thing in the works. Maybe he was referring to the Hong Kong temple. I don't know. It was 4 or 5 years ago.

The Q&A was winding down, and Elder Hales asked us if we had any last questions. He looked around at us all. I looked around too. I couldn't believe these people were being so "reverent" that they wouldn't use this moment to do the one thing anyone would want to do if they met an apostle personally. Before Elder Hales concluded the Q&A, I spoke up.

"I have a question." I was trying to word it so as not to sound like an apostate trying to get a reuse. "I've always wanted to hear this from one of the Brethren for myself. Elder Hales, are you a special witness of my savior Jesus Christ?”

The room was silent. Eyes looked at me, but then immediately darted to Hales. We were all curious. The question had been asked. His response was kind of impressive, but looking back on it, I didn't "feel the spirit" in it, probably due to my depression. He looked me in my eyes and without batting an eye said, "I know." Then with just a pause, he said "and I think I can say of the other brethren that they know." He then bore a testimony that impressed everyone that they could all know as surely as the brethren knew by the power of the Holy Ghost. We then concluded and went off to stake conference.

I don’t know what I had wanted to hear, but I know now that that was not what I needed to hear. He hadn’t said “I’ve seen him,” or even “Yes, I am a special witness.” He just said “I know.” I presume by the rest of his answer that he meant “by the power of the Holy Ghost” but I can’t be sure. It was a cryptic answer, the kind I’m sure he gives all the time–Just enough to tease the faithful, but never enough to actually be of any substance.

A couple years later after I came to BYUI, I was taking a Christian History class. We got Acts chapter 1 where it defines an apostle as someone who was an eyewitness of the risen Christ. The brethren never deny it, but they never speak frankly about it either. Someone asked the professor why the Brethren are always so cryptic, and the class was instantly listening. The professor responded, “Never ask an apostle that!” We were kind of shocked. Why not? He explained that from the occasions he knew, there was one when one of the brethren responded to such a question that the brethren don’t even ask each other. It’s too sacred, he explained. The class was visibly deflated.

We know how the mormon testimony works, you are supposed to sweep such things under the carpet and never speak of them again, unless you dress it up or etc. I might have swept this under the carpet if I hadn’t had the Elder Hales experience to reference it with.

Some point later the implication finally dawned on me. Oh my God, I thought, none of them even knows whether the other has seen Christ. My mind was racing. This was after Elder Packer had anti-climactically read that poem and said “these words are mine.” Ok, I thought, so maybe Elder Packer thinks he’s seen the Christ, and maybe he has in a dream, or vision, or something.

But there’s one conclusion that cannot be avoided, given all these evidences.

Jesus Christ has never ever been there, in person, in the flesh, objectively standing in the room with all these apostles in it.

There’s no testimony anywhere of such, but rather the testimony regularly borne to people around the states who have had close encounters with the Brethren, or know them personally, is that the Brethren's’ testimonies of the savior are NO different from the common member’s at their best: completely subjective, probably just a burning in the bosom per usual. Who knows, maybe some of them don’t even have testimonies except for that borrowed light kind of testimony of gold specks in their bag, an accumulated testimony of confirmation bias.

I just thought I'd share.

Why did Joseph Smith get to see God and Jesus, angels etc and yet no one else did? Why was his faith never tested? Why would God choose a philandering conman to represent Him on earth, and not require that man to exercise one particle of faith?

He was tested remember? He said he didn't want to be a womanizer, but the Lord's angel was gonna slay him with a sword. If you've ever seen a BYU girl swoon over an RM, you get the idea of how easy it would have been for him to get 33 wives.

I think he was tested. Per JS himself, some revelations come from God, some from the Devil, and some from ourselves. The Prophet (and us also) need to learn to discern the diference. The Angel with the sword (if it actually happened) was most likely a revelation from the Devil and JS was not able to tell the difference. He failed the test.

Tell me you don't believe a spec of this b.s.

This issue is one that bothers me the most about the church. All of my life I have been told that we have a prophet leading the and guiding the church. This man is the mouthpiece for God. Yet where is the revelation? Where are the miracles? Where are the testimonies of witnessing the Savior? Prior prophets and disciples were not shy of sharing their experiences- hence the scriptures! But don't you dare ask a GA about seeing the Savior because it is "too sacred."

Of course, if you ask for a sign you are a wicked and adulterous individual. What a horrible way to manage an organization. Especially one that is led by God.

If they are "witnesses" of Christ, then why aren't they actually witnessing? What good is a witness who withholds evidence? What's the point of Jesus revealing Himself to a select few if they aren't allowed to talk about it? And more importantly, even if He DID show himself to a select few, other people believing because of THEIR words about it would be showing faith in men, rather than faith in God.

The "too sacred to talk about" excuse is rather dodgy. They just don't want to lie or bring embarrassing publicity to the church by openly making an outrageous claim. Then church members can just quietly whisper to their children that the apostles have seen Jesus.

BTW, I've heard that now the apostles are called special witnesses for the NAME of Christ, instead of special witnesses OF Christ.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles

I just wanted to say that I've SEEN his name, as well, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that his name truly exists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2014 10:14AM by imaworkinonit.

So true, imaworkinonit, because remember when they spent all that money to increase the size of the church name so people could see that it contained JESUS CHRIST on the ward buildings and on the church stationery?

More irony - all things are made certain via witnesses. The three witnesses, the eight witnesses... but when it comes to the modern prophet (which is the distinguishing characteristic of Mormonism compared with say, Calvinism)...these special witnesses have a gag order.

I guess the appearance of God himself plus Jesus was not too sacred for Joseph to talk about....but Monson can't speak?


Kathleen

I think Joseph was the only one to make claims like a prophet. Everyone else has been riding his coat tails (whether or not they're whole-cloth lies). Whatever you think of Joseph, he certainly didn't lack for boldness.
The carefully worded testimony of those who accept the title of "prophet, seer, and revelator" is - to me - an evidence of deception. Not speaking is speaking.

Of course they haven't seen Christ and they do not meet with him in the temple either.
That's why they get so angry when anyone dares ask them questions about it.
Personal witness, my ass.

Joseph must not have read 1 Timothy 6:16

It's such a perfect answer for a leader of a church claiming to have moder day prophets and apostles. They KNOW that they haven't seen Jesus or angels and they KNOW that their testimony is no more impressive than the average member.

I've read from other posters on this board of GA's giving similar answers. NONE of them have answered in the affirmative but they give the ol cryptic, too sacred to talk about bull*** answer so as to not have to outright lie but also to make it SOUND like they MAY have had some kind supernatural experience.

Such a weasel answer. They know their testimony isn't any better than the average member.

If God (with beard, robe and sandals) got up in Fast and Testimony, the Brethren would switch off the mic and manhandle him out of there pronto.

While I'm certainly appreciative of the internet and all the pro-truth literature about mormonism out there, it's this concept --- that mormonism is just another man-made system, that I use when mormons come around to me.

It's their responsibility to show me that the church is true, that its leaders are prophets, that it's run by divine guidance. That somehow, it's better than all the other churches. That somehow, it's evident that God is talking to mormon leaders above the *spirit* that can talk to anybody else. To provide some reasons, delineations, that show mormonism really is God's church and the others aren't. To show that the priesthood is real, beyond self-fulfillment.

They can't.

The recent essay "Race and the Priesthood" confirms that the Prophet receives no more special a witness than any ordinary member.

"After praying for guidance, President McKay did not feel impressed to lift the ban."

President McKay had no expectation that he would see or hear God or Christ directly in response to his question. That he would accept silence as a valid response from God on a matter of such magnitude tells us that Prophets do not witness Christ in any manner differently to how members experience Him.

Great example.

"Jesus Christ has never ever been there, in person, in the flesh, objectively standing in the room with all these apostles in it."

Well, of course.
In fact, there's really no evidence that "Jesus Christ" has ever been anywhere.
That's kinda how mythical beings are.

All this wondering about some revelation reminds me of the members in the 1850's asking: how come we don't have any more revelations and apparitions like in the old days? (sigh) Where is JS to put on a show?

The implication that TBM's come up with that it's "too scared to talk about" is CRAP!

Tell me I'm wrong, but Jesus supposedly encouraged people to spread the Word. Sure, you're not supposed to be humble and not brag and make a big deal about praying, but hell, if you SAW JC and talked with him IN PERSON, then why in the hell not profess it to the world!?

They are too scared to either 1) lie and say they've seen Jesus, or 2) tell the truth that they haven't seen Jesus.

It's a catch 22. Either way there are consequences they don't like.

So they choose not to commit.

Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Euphemism and evasion are forms of deceit.

I know if I had an actual theophany* you couldn't get me to stop talking about it. The actual prophets and apostles of the Old and New Testaments were marginalized at least, persecuted and killed at worst. Many of them behaved erratically, wearing very unorthodox apparel (for their culture), and performing extreme symbolic acts of street theater to attract the people's attention and get their point across. Hosea married a prostitute to demonstrate Israel's unfaithfulness to God. (Not all of them, of course; Elisha's temporal life was very conventional.)

They were hated and despised and suffered for their beliefs, actions, and pronouncements. They didn't shrink back from criticism. Most of them were social, religious, and political outcasts. Charles Colson pointed out how all the apostles suffered martyrdom (except John--exile) and refused to recant their testimony. Imagine Andrew saying, "I saw the risen Jesus with my 'spiritual eyes.'"

The LDS hierarchy attempt a precarious balance between being regarded as distinctive and privileged, and making LDS resemble an orthodox Christian group.

“Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 6.26).

*I would hopefully examine the experience as critically and objectively as possible to determine if there was a temporal or psychological explanation.

they were speciak witnesses....

"Apostle: Special Witness of Christ"
http://mormonheretic.org/2012/08/29/apostle-special-witness-of-christ/

Apparently, the standard answer that GAs give for this question is "I know." One of them (I think it was Paul Dunn) came to my mission 40+ years ago, and his message consisted mostly of repeating "I know" so many times, that we all concluded that he must actually know.

We didn't dare ask WHAT he knew.

pfffttt - What Dunn knew.... ha.

(Exodus 33:20)--“But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

There you go right there. The twelve are actually just a bunch of chicken shits, and JS was just a liar...amongst other things.

Who would want to? According to him(god) you wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it anyway.

or even if he ever existed; it's funny to think about these men. They try and act so spiritual about it, when really, it is like asking if they were ever visited by Bugs Bunny in person.

I promise, they were never visited by Jesus or any other fictional character.

Wait..First you must establish that the Prophet is a Prophet of God...Seer, and Revelator. Can you show me any publication where Monson declares this to the world? If Monson doesn't give Jesus/God and the world acknowledgement/confirmation then Monson is making a mocker of Jesus/God. Of course they will never say such a thing..so they will never be held accountable in the next life.

This is a classical example in MORmONISM, where the superlative is implied but the ass clown MORmON leaders can not deliver in the slightest degree. They should be in prison. ALL of them !

Years ago I was in a priesthood leadership meeting with Packer, where he admitted he had never seen Christ, any other angelic visitor, nor even heard an audible voice. He said everything he knew was from feeling inside, and from that he knows.

Very interesting. And quite disappointing honestly. Here you have a member of the Q12 and they admitted never seeing, talking to, experiencing anything other than a feeling. Again, a horrible managerial plan for God. You would think God would give his upper management a bit more to go on.

How do you explain those paintings that have all the prophets in their white suits with Jesus standing amidst them? Isn't that proof enough?

Nope. Not proof enough. Just like those pictures of JS translating the BOM with gold plates in front of him and OC writing stuff down. Where was the top hat? And the freshly dug up seer stone?

Disappointing. And dishonest.

If you do not see, are you a seer? I was shocked to find that "Special Witness" is a calling bestowed upon you, not an evidence or testimony given (born) to you.

It is not God calling "Samuel, Samuel" thrice in the night, nor a pillar of fire upon a rock, nor an ember placed upon your tongue.

It's a job.

I haven't gotten a good answer as to what they have that *is* special.