Looking at early Mormon history, I personally think it's fairly clear who "really believed" and who knew they were perpetuating a fraud.
Joseph Smith, for example -- he knew it was all a fraud. If nothing else, his "angel with a flaming sword" excuses for shagging teenage girls shows that. Hyrum knew. Rigdon knew. Martin Harris probably "believed." And so on.

But what about today's "big 15?" How many do you think actually believe, or are just knowingly perpetuating a fraud that gives them power and money? And what do you base your assessment on?

If you think of yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator, and you haven't prophesied, seen, or revealed anything, whoa does that make you?


If God doesn't speak to you, If Christ doesn't appear to you, do you notice as a "special witness" tha nothing special happened?

I'd say most of them have to "know"~~ Once you get closer to the top I'm sure it becomes more obvious as nothing really changes. The only "increase" in blessings is in the form of $$$$. WHen they get closer to the top as a TBM they have great expectations. But other than a payvheck, their job produces same reaults as when they volunteered as the bishop. Idk. Just my quick thought opinion. I bet most know or question it but "go along" and keep their mouth shut about their doubts for fear the other GA will assume he isn't worth of the position. Idk

If they don't know, they are stupid beyond belief.

If they know, they are frauds beyond belief.

Stupid frauds.

I think they all know there are serious questions and problems with Joseph Smith's credibility, and therefore, the foundation of this whole stupid church. I don't think it matters one bit how much of the evidence they actually have read or studied.

The fact of the matter is that these clowns get up in front of the world and claim to be be prophets and apostles-they claim to KNOW (which they emphasize) their church is true and led by Jesus Christ himself. First, that is not true. They do not know. They may hope or believe, but they don't know. So, they are saying something that is not true.

Are they saying this innocently and just mistaking knowing for believing? No, they are purposefully misleading, IOW, lying. If they are going to claim they know, they better have studied every single thing they can get their hands on and satisfied themselves there are good answers to all troubling elements. One does not get to purposefully keep themselves ignorant, trick other people and then say they didn't know those things either. If they know there is something to know, they better know it before peddling it to others. There is a standard of knowing or should have known. They are certainly responsible for knowing their own history. Plus, we know they have not come up with good answers because we do not have those answers and they are still trying to hide things.

So, yes they are knowingly perpetuating a fraud any way you slice it. They likely do not admit this to themselves, but rather they justify it somehow in their own minds. Most people have justified something they are doing that they know is wrong but want to keep doing because they benefit from it. For the 15 to do it on this scale though is just outrageous. Deep down they absolutely know they are not being honest and have to know they cause great pain and strife.

If they were confident their stupid church was true and were honest men, they would let everything come out, explain why they still believe and allow other people to come to their own conclusion. They don't do that. They lie.

Sometimes I find myself hoping that they're all frauds, because the alternative is creepy. When my parents testified to me their belief in seer stones, their countenances took on a resemblance to monkeys. I swear I thought they were going to start grooming each other, picking nits from their Christmas sweaters and eating them like sacrament breadcrumbs. Andy Williams holiday tunes warbled from an eight-track player in the background, and the room began to rotate. My parents are crazy. Both of them singing like a black forest wall clock, I thought.

If my parents were insane, what would that make me? I was afraid to talk to a therapist for decades, but I did, and then I knew. That's why I wish they were, and some times hope they are, faking it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 10:41PM by donbagley.

My parents aren't faking this crap. They also aren't faking their mental illness.

The church takes as much advantage of them as they can. If there's anything leftover, my siblings will jump right in and clean up any scraps.

What a stunning piece of writing.

I agree, great writing there. Maybe someone can turn it into a song.

That is a magnificent retelling of an image I can easily relate to (I remeber being the monkey!)

When I believed I was in for the long haul. I think the 15 do believe. They are most deluded of the bunch and through their deep and abiding belief they are able to convince others to follow. They are the Judas goats leading the sheep to slaughter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 11:19PM by michaelc1945.

Unless they've deluded themselves enough to overlook and/or Ignore the disconnects between Claims & Reality, They KNOW.

"If you think of yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator, and you haven't prophesied, seen, or revealed anything, whoa does that make you?" - If you ask me, that SHOULD make you UNEMPLOYED.
Any other job's (on this planet) description in which the employee is doing none of the items on the description would be getting fired.
We keep forgetting that things on Kolob might be different and perhaps one is not expected to adhere to one's calling like on earth.
I believe that seer, revelator etc. are callings.
When others don't do their CULT callings, they get in trouble.

I agree with rain 100%

They don't call just anybody to be apostles, they are seriously vetted and have software tracking programs to pick them. I'm pretty sure they make sure the guy they are picking is church broke, one that won't question, and a yes man. That being said, If I had to put money down I'd bet that Monson (comes off as phony to me) and Uchdorf (seems too mainstream) are non believers, the rest are believers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 12:21AM by toast.

Have you ever heard members say "Even if an angel came down and told me the church wasn't true I would still believe because I received my testimony from the Holy Ghost"? Where do you think they learn to say stupid shit like this? It comes from the top down, the apostles are the type that have already determined that they will absolutely never doubt the truthfulness of the church. Just think of all the people on here that say they've shown loved ones the bull shit history of this church and yet they keep believing. Why do we think the apostles are any different? When these old shits have believed it their whole life what makes you think they're going to change at 60?

There are so many crazy ass religions out there that people believe in and follow. We shouldn't assume that just because we see all the craziness that they automatically see it too.

They are gullible and egotistical enough to believe that an idea in their own head is from God.

If Lafferty and Jeffs can believe they are prophets. . .

Listen to Christine Clark Jeppsen on Mormon Stories. Her father got his "how to recognize when your thoughts are from God" training from BKP.

It was eerily like Lafferty's training in the "school of prophets" from Prophet Oneida.

I honestly can't decide. It might be a mix but I think its certainly possible that most or all of them believe. The reason being is that we peons view the role of prophet differently than they do.

They have probably been trained and conditioned as they enter GA'hood that they are basically "stewards" of the church and shouldn't expect to see visions, angels and Jesus like Joseph Smith did. "Its not needed anymore." They probably believe that the church is so well structured that they don't need to see grand visions, that a united quorum who "feels the spririt" is all that is needed. God is pleased with them and doesn't feel a need to have to come down and appear to them.

They let the masses believe otherwise because that's what Mormons do, lie for the Lord because the end justifies the means.

I think the GA's are a special breed though. They have been vetted so well that they truly are the cream of the crop in deluded a-holes. They view the world differently than we do. They are so insulated and surrounded by others who believe the same thing and prop each other up so as to not allow any kind of questioning. And they are businessmen for the Lord.

Never underestimate people's capacity for stupidity.

I think most guys think by the age of 30 that at some level, it's not what it claims. Many coast, others bail, some double down for the eartly rewards. The GAs quadruple-downed!

Anyone capable of admitting to the fraud has self-selected out of the competition for GA-hood long before reaching that level.

Once there, they are well paid with secure jobs with egos stroked by the adulation of the masses. The financial and status benefits extend to their children and grandchildren. They are highly incentivised to believe. Admitting the fraud means giving all that up, possible estrangement from family and friends. Too high a price to pay.

Some, like Nibley, just go slowly crazy. Most compartmentalize and carry on enjoying their nice lifestyle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 07:52AM by caedmon.

"What Would Moosie Do?"

caedmon's post fits what I think my own path would be if "opportunity" caught my collar and dragged me along. I think that, once at a certain level, you just cannot admit to anyone, even your peers in the Q12+3, that you know it's all a fraud.

Unless one of those peers reveals that same secret to you!

How much of THAT has happened I do not know! I suspect it has happened.

I've considered this question for quite some time but have decided that the FP and Q12 are true believers. Since Mormonism equates monetary success with righteousness I'm sure that looking at the balance sheets alone causes them to believe the church to be true, if for no other reason.

They all know its a fraud. They are master brainwashers, are devoid of empathy. They love power, control and money, and admiration.

Think about this, they have finally admitted after 180 yes that JS was an adulterer. They tried to spin the whole polygamy thing but we all know that JS was a slimmy conman that took advantage of any female that let him. They know the BofA and the BofM are frauds. They don't care about the members, they only Carr about preserving the cult.

The cult isn't even truly Christian. They are promoting a scribe and pharisee organization.

They are masters at coverups, spin doctoring, lieing and deceiving. They had me believe and worship JS as a holy prophet by hiding his illegal and shamefully sexual excapades.

Narcissists (the15) are messed up units you just have to walk away from.

As I posted in the thread about my wife's shelf collapsing, they know it's a fraud.

If they believed truly they would not lie and cover up the way they do. They would tell the whole truth and not apologize and continue to hide things.

They are clinging to the lie and causing families to be torn apart and no end of misery and pain.

They should all be thrown in jail for fraud.

Most of the members I have known well, truly believed and would never consider any part of their religion was anything but true.

In my view, it's an American God Myth that follows much of the same pattern of other religious mythologies that are based on supernatural, metaphysical, visionary claims.

From Grant Palmer on MormonThink. The next-to-last paragraph is prophetic.

Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013

Grant Palmer

Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.

In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.

We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.

He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “his interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.

He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, “That’s right!”

The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don’t see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will “explode.” When it does, he said, the members are going to be “shocked” and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.

The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like “a hypocrite and trapped.” The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him. He would like to do more in getting the truth out besides raising a few questions when speaking and gifting my book to others when feeling comfortable. Perhaps this is why he has reached out to me. The GA is a man of integrity and very loving. Upon leaving each time, he always gives me a big hug.

http://mormonthink.com/grant9.htm

For those of you in my age group (born in the 1960s), you may remember the Ramona The Pest books? They were about a rather irreverent little girl and her escapades. In one such story she is having a funeral for her pet and all the neighborhood kids are involved, its a big production and then they realize her pet is still alive and the girl, not wanting to ruin her big event says "lets kill it."

So I would bet that the higher ups would do pretty much anything to keep their charade going. I don't mean they would kill people but the status quo is the name of the game, I would think.

They 15 all know it's a fraud. The effort to cover-up all of the lies is the biggest evidence that they all know and are complicit in the fraud.

I almost believed my Patriartical Blessing for a while and that I was a Missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ for two years. Perhaps the Belief that they are true Apostles is all they know and that's good enough.

"Palomino Gal's" post is eye-opening.
I would suggest that the recent thread on video showing a GA during GC prayer demonstrating his non-belief is about as much as most normal people will see, but that it shows pretty clearly that they don't really believe. But after her post...sheesh.

If PalominoGal is correct and all or most aren't true believers, but rather true defenders, why can't they make the church and life more enjoyable? Why do they have to be such a&*holes about everything? Truly.