We're both in our mid-sixties and she knows I no longer believe. All conversations we used to have about the church ended with her saying, "I know the church is true because I received a witness." Then she'd walk away. I stopped saying anything months ago, but there is still some tension between us. Any nonsensical issue about any other belief system is shredded by her hardened objectivity, but Mormonism is strictly off limits.

Is there anyone out there who has been able to persuade their spouse to break free of their Moroni 10:4 witness and consider things logically?

BTW, Moroni 10:4 was drilled into us during our Mutual days in the '60s. After a song and a prayer we'd all stand and chant that verse of scripture. I can still spit it out verbatim.

Unless she wants to see truth, you cant force her

Luckily, my wife was on the same page as me and we both left together. But the following 15 minute video should dismantle Moroni 10:4 for any objective viewer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

Hope this helps...

Yes, that video is really good. Chris Johnson does a great job of showing how people from all kinds of religions have the exact same kind of "spiritual witness" that Mormons claim to have.

I also like this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ It shows how religious people are able to see the ridiculousness of other religious beliefs, but can't apply the same scrutiny to their own. It's too bad though that there isn't another version of this for Mormons that puts Mormon beliefs last in the series, rather than first, like this video does. But still, the method itself can be useful.

There is also a book that I recommend highly, which is A Manual for Creating Atheists, by Peter Boghossian. It teaches the reader how to intervene with believers in a way that makes them question their beliefs without making them defensive (the Socratic method, basically). The book is so logical and beautiful that I nearly cried the first time I read it. :)

Here is the book summary for A Manual for Creating Atheists from Amazon:

"For thousands of years, the faithful have honed proselytizing strategies and talked people into believing the truth of one holy book or another. Indeed, the faithful often view converting others as an obligation of their faith—and are trained from an early age to spread their unique brand of religion. The result is a world broken in large part by unquestioned faith. As an urgently needed counter to this tried-and-true tradition of religious evangelism, A Manual for Creating Atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith—but for talking them out of it. Peter Boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than 20 years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason."

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1416531517&sr=1-1

This is an excellent video. And the point of view is that of a TBM seeking help for his brother. The only thing is having her want to watch it. If I gave it to her she'd be suspicious. Maybe one of our married kids could send it to her. A plea to help them with their own testimony. Thanks exodus!

Many other church's members receive witnesses too. What makes one right over the other?

Maybe you could nonchalantly share accounts of JWs or Catholics or Amish people's testimonies of their religions? But yeah if she doesn't want to see it, you can't force her. You'll have to accept it and find a way to live in peace.

Yup - that's what was in the video link I provided. It's very eye-opening.

...because she will only see the light when she's emotionally ready to---but I'd suggest a response like "Honey, tens of thousands of Mormons are leaving the church every year. A lot of them had 'witnesses' too, but they came to realize that spiritual or emotional experiences can't override facts."

I myself had as strong a "spiritual witness" as any Mormon I'd ever known, except perhaps for a few who claimed to have supernatural visitations. My witness got me through my mission and about 15 more years of dedicated church activity. But when I began studying the FACTS, I realized that my spiritual witness was bogus.

A few years ago, I watched a documentary about one of the more benign Mormon polygamous groups. Those people had church meetings just like mainstream Mormons do, sing the same hymns, and hold the same testimony meetings. Some of the members went up to the microphone and bore as strong a testimony of their fundamentalist branch of Mormonism as you'd hear in any LDS chapel. Meaning, the "spiritual witness" isn't an accurate method for determining truth.

You can't talk anyone out of believing. They have to do it on

their own. Sorry.

Especially my wife. I couldn't talk her out of jumping into the Grand Canyon if Monson told her to. It would have to be her idea to investigate the real history of TSCC. She'd have to be challenged by someone close to her who is struggling - like one of our inactive kids.

A couple of thing to point out. First be loving. Second be supportive. Explain to her you have lost your testimony and there are things that the church has not answered. Third use ONLY church based resources. Best of luck

I would suggest
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

It's straight off their own website and was a big eye opener for some on BabyCenter. Also this, a list of when Smith was sealed. Note Emma was NOT until some time in 1843. I am still trying to find an exact date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

Thanks Susan. I couldn't give her this directly though. She'd know it was something to convince her that she's wrong about TSCC. The only way this would work would be to have one of our kids send it to her asking for help because they're struggling with their testimony.

Your wife is getting something from Mormonism that she doesn't want to give-up. Some of the most abused victims will defend their abusers if being a victim is getting them something they really, really, do not want to give-up. If you can find out what that "thing(s)" is you might be able figure out where she's stuck and work from that point. Counseling might help if you can find a really good counselor.

That witness comes from you. Not just the conscious you, but the higher self. If her higher self wanted her in TSSC to meet you, bingo. There's your witness.

Many of us here got the exact same witness. A very powerful witness sometimes, but it can't change the facts of history or archaeology. It's okay to outgrow Mormonism.

Don't know if you've seen these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2I9LpDF708

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/


Although they don't address the testimony aspect of it, I found them informative in the sense of how others are dealing with leaving the church.

Thanks. But the problem is that my wife would never, ever consider listening to something by an ex-mormon.

Love Her. Show that you can be the most kind loving person and be happy and she will want to know why you are so happy. Accept everything about her the way she is. You can't change her like you can't change the weather. When she is ready she will change ... or not! Can you live with that?

The first question is whether you have the right to "get her to see the truth." Makes you sound like a TBM. Just another form of being a control freak. The only thing that matters is free agency. If you could share all information on your personal habits and lifestyle, I could point out "the truth" and try to get you to change, but I doubt you would be interested.

But let me clue you in on one "truth". You are not number one to your wife. She married you to get something from you. She doesn't really care about you.

She also joined the church to get stuff from it. She gets support, and also uses it to control you. For example, should she catch you looking at porn, she could report you to the bishop. She owns your sexuality. She is far from a victim in the church, but uses it to gain power over others.

Anyway, marriage is a scam, and most of us can go our whole life thinking our spouse really cares about us, when they just want something from us. I learned this when having career problems and suddenly received threats of divorce.

Anyway, glad I could try to get you to see the truth. Just accept that she doesn't care about you, and cares more for the church. Gets easier when you can accept it. And let her do her thing, and you do yours.

I am in the same situation but my wife will not even let me tell her anything I know because it may hurt her feelings about the church. I initially thought we may need to get divorced, however, we have learned to still love each other and I go to the gym, fishing, etc. on Sunday when she goes to church. She says its for social reasons (doesn't pay tithing because doesn't earn money) only but that is not true. However, her testimony is questionable because she knows little to no doctrine and she would be totally unable to argue it.

I am still concerned leaving my estate equally to my kids because I do have non believing kids and why leave equal amounts to each if I know the believers have and will continue to be scammed even when I told them the truth. Why not give the vast majority of my estate to the part of the family that didn't reject what I told them totally? I am going to give them all some time to see if anything changes. I am trying to be optimistic and meditate on being optimistic ------ seems that meditation has worked in some areas of my life.

Bottom line, if she can't answer yes to the below question there's nothing you can do:

"If the church were not true, would you want to know?"

Howdy Tom!

It's the Boner, I've missed your friendship and am sad to hear that things aren't going so great at home. It seems that in addition to our age, we got other things in common, unfortunately.

Back in October, I vented on the Board about a series of arguments that began with my wife inviting me to Meet the Mormons--the assigned first weekend. I made a cutting comment back, she left, I got mad and we started a big fight.

More recently, my TBM opened a private letter to a friend who's incarcerated. She missed the point of the letter (about hope and forgiveness) and chose to focus on my colorful language. We got into another fight about privacy, reading someone else's mail, bad language, etc.

The last couple of weekends, there have been issues about parents, the Morg, and I even tried (unsuccessfully) to shove the essays at her. She deflected the polygamy and polyandry with a "I don't care, the church brings me comfort and you don't." Ouch!

So, where the fuck am I going with with this? I think my wife and I have crossed the line where we put up with each other by avoiding conversations and doing things together. From your earlier posts, you seem to have a much better relationship with your wife. So, what I'd suggest is to let up on trying to get her to see the light--she won't. Religion isn't worth a shitty marriage and you may be able to stop the downward cycle. From what you've posted earlier, there are many positives in your marriage and life with family.

In my case, my TBM son will return in a couple of months from his mission and perhaps there will be some healing in this. It will take a long time to prepare the relationship damage (if ever). Avoid my mistakes, don't throw things at her, she won't listen. Let her do the church, look to Sundays a some private time where you can focus on your interests.

Sorry, buddy, I hope this helps! The Boner!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 11:25PM by byuboner.

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, Boner. I had to take a break from RFM for a while because I started going a little nutty, but the polygamy essay brought me back in. Too good to resist the commentary about horny joe. My situation is okay. You're right about not pushing it with my wife. It's just her intransigence about looking objectively at the church. She'll rip apart any other church and their seemingly whacko beliefs. But when it comes to Mormonism, their obviously whacko sh!t becomes off limits to rationality. I know most others on this site, and you especially, understand what I'm saying. It's like our wives are in a post-hypnotic trance and whatever they are told by the brethren is absolute because they chat with God every day. It's a frustrating place to be - married to a hardcore TBM. Hang in there buddy. I may not post much but I'll continue monitoring :)

Sorry to hear it too, boner. It sounds like the authentic boner is not allowed in your home. It's the same situation with me to some extent. When I am around friends I can relax and say what I want and be myself, and I'm a good person even though I might swear or make fun of holy bullshit.

But at home the standards are all different. My goodness or badness is judged by how much I follow useless and distracting cult patterns of speech and behavior and express the right opinions. I don't comply well and my TBM wife feels she has to always put the brakes on or who knows where swearing will lead?

Well I can tell you one place it won't lead: to lying to her as I sleep with 39 other women and have sex with 14-year-olds. She can count on that.

HeartSell (tm) Google the page on Bonneville

That's what she had a confirmation of

The Church does not have faith in the Holy Ghost if they pay for HeartSell. They can't have it both ways. Either the Holy Ghost is real and gives people feelings, or they need to pay for those feelings to be manufactured. Are they not therefore denying the power of the Holy Ghost and steadying the Ark at the same time?

It's worse than that. True that they pay big money to PR firms to generate Holy Ghost feelings. But TCoJCoLDS is the one that sells HeartSell(TM). It's a trademark of Bonneville, which is wholly owned by LDS Inc.

Tom Padley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there anyone out there who has been able to
> persuade their spouse to break free of their
> Moroni 10:4 witness and consider things
> logically?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr3JYFX1Czg

I think you should keep everything above board ie don't go behind her back with one of your children or else she won't be able to trust either of you.

You really do need to keep the high ground then she'll know you have integrity and the church doesn't.

Yes. I thought about that overnight and can't be deceptive. Either she's going to figure it out or she isn't. And I can live with that.

Short answer: you don't. The more you push it on her, the more it will become a wedge between you, and the more likely she is to choose the church over you.

You cannot push other people to see the truth. It doesn't work. If she is going to get there, she has to get there on her own, just as you did.

Sorry, but that's the truth.

+1 what he said...

^ +1. Don't let religion become a wedge in your marriage. Don't push for change if she is not ready to accept it and you want to say married. Just my 2 cents based on experience.

Acknowledged and heeded. Thanks for the objective advice.

I am a little past the 7 year mark of leaving the church while still having a very TBM spouse.

I had to tell myself that it was OK that she still believed. I used to show her stuff and talk to her about stuff. If she wants to believe, she will believe. You cannot change her until she is ready to change. And she will let you know.

Love and accept her for who she is, you will be much better off. Your marriage will be too.

^ I'm in a similar situation. I came to realize that my wife being a TBM adds to the quality of her life. I'm ok with it as long as the church does not decrease my quality of life. We leave each other alone when it comes to religion and it works for us. The fact that I was never very active probably makes it easier.

Contradictions sometimes help people to start thinking critically.

The news article "How the Mormons Make Money" finally shook us up.

Then the contradictions in the scriptures helped us see the doctrines for being based on the "teachings" of Men.

Wonder how many TBM would be interested in the changes in the Book of Mormon ("the most correct book, and a man will get closer to god by abiding by it's precepts")

Is the video 17 minutes of truth by Past Bishop Earl Erskine helped anyone With showing the contradictions in different releases in the Book of Mormon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxhT0S04AJ8


Such as Why does the Church not abide by what the 1830 Book of Mormon said about the nature of God?
Or what the Book of Mormon says that Polygamy of David and Solomon was an abomination of God?

More contradictions in the Book of Mormon shown at the sites:

Bible and Book of Mormon Contradictions By Sandra Tanner
http://utlm.org/onlineresources/bibleandbomcontradictions.htm

Institute for Religious Research/Mormons in transition
http://mit.irr.org/contradictions-between-book-of-mormon-and-bible

Skeptics annotated Book of Mormon
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/contra/by_name.html