I live near an LDS church in the UK and often see missionaries in the local area. I think they live in a house in the next street. I found this site after looking for info about what they believe, after a friend told me she's been visited a few times by Mormons and they've been helping out with stuff.

But reading threads here has kinda made my heart break for these young missionary guys. I don't think they're necessarily unhappy, but your conversations have revealed what a controlling organisation they're part of.

When they've knocked on my door in the past I've always said "no thanks" and shut the door, but this board has made me more up for engaging in conversation. I'm under no illusion that if they've been part of TSCC for years, and if they have TBM family, it's extremely unlikely that I'll rock their boats... but what if I'm someone who can offer them a credible alternative perspective on TSCC. I'm a stranger after all and have nothing to lose!

I guess there are common things that they hear and they have ready prepared responses. Is that right? I suppose my question for you guys is whether you can give me any hints on questions I could ask about their faith, or things I could say that they wouldn't be expecting, or wouldn't have pre-prepared responses for? Anything I could do (someone who doesn't know much about Mormonism) to plant a seed? Is this just a pipe dream? What would you do?

I'm a Christian and occasionally they'll come in pairs to our church service on a Sunday evening. What does TSCC say about going to other Christian churches? Can't help wondering what goes through their minds when they hear readings from a modern version of the Bible, or hear about the God we believe in through our sermons or even the songs. Is this part of their mission - to draw us out of other churches and along to theirs?

Thanks for reading.

It's all good that you try, keep so doing. But realize that you aren't likely to be anything more than an evening entry in their journals about how they listened to an "anti" and were able to resist Stan's minions by being true to the faith.

They are so f'ing clueless, I wager there aren't a few in a thousand who have the wherewithal to engage in intelligent conversation. I know, I was one once. I continue to be astonished that I sat and bore testimony of Joseph Smith, with conviction, and that he was a prophet of God.

BTW, while I write this, Im watching a DVR'd copy of Chelsea hand WBA their heads. God loves the BPL!

They need to know how the public feels about door to door preaching.

If you do want to talk, no harm done, but don't expect them to know much about their church except that they "know" it's true.

Just keep saying "who said" to everything they say. It soon gets back to JS said he was a prophet.

Repeat. Who said?

Eventually all they have is JS said he was a prophet because God made him one..

Who said?

Well,,, JS said...

Blank stare...

Now go from that point backwards in JS history. What kind of man was he? How trustworthy was he? What did he do for money? What kind of household and beliefs did he grow up in? What did people think of him in his community? Did he have integrity?

It's not a pretty picture at all.

I really like this approach. It speaks to them in their native language--authoritarianism.

If I said the sky is falling, a rational person would ask me "why do you say that?" A mormon would ask me "who told you that?"

inyorkshire said, "I found this site after looking for info about what they believe, after a friend told me she's been visited a few times by Mormons and they've been helping out with stuff."

Please warn your friend that the missionaries are "helping out with stuff" in an effort to create within her a need to reciprocate for all their help.

They "do stuff" on purpose to put people in their debt so the missionaries can more easily persuade people they helped to listen to the discussions (i.e., lessons) and attend TSCC.

The missionaries have been taught salesmanship.

Thanks so much. The compassion shown for people posting on this board is wonderful to read.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

This is their OWN website but they seem to be trying to keep things quiet. We will be updating the list as more are added. You might try just printing out the urls and giving them the list to check out on their own.

This is my personal fav where they admit he had over 40 wives.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1180178,1180178#msg-1180178

Timeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

Note that his LEGAL wife is actually way down the list. Right with a bunch of teens.
Lyndon W. Cook, "The Revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith," p. 4:

Joseph Smith Jr. – Son of Joseph Smith and Lucy Mack. Born 23 December 1805 at Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont. Married Emma Hale at South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York, 18 January 1827. …Sealed to wife, Emma, 28 May 1843.

On my mission in Australia 40 years ago, we would occasionally knock on someone's door who knew a little something about Mormonism (most people knew absolutely nothing, except for a little about polygamy.) I met maybe half a dozen such people in my two years. They brought up controversial issues which I knew nothing about---such as the lack of archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon---so I couldn't really respond with any authoritativeness.

As missionaries, we learned to put those incidents in the back of our minds, and just keep studying, praying, and going out day after day knocking on more doors. In other words, we indoctrinated ourselves. We convinced ourselves that we weren't seeking learned, "worldly" people, but rather humble, searching people. Truthfully, we just looked for people who knew nothing bad about Mormonism whom we could teach from scratch and persuade them into joining up. The few people we persuaded into joining was consolation for all the ones we couldn't budge.

I write this to let you know that the best thing you can do to help LDS missionaries is to learn a little about Mormonism yourself. You don't have to become an expert, just learn a few basic facts which cast doubt on the Mormon story. The reason is, I still remember the things those few non-Mormons told me about the church 40 years ago. Those things helped me to conclude that the church was a fraud some 18 years ago, and to resign from it. So, any tidbits of truth you can share with missionaries might stay with them and help them years down the road. You can plant seeds in their minds.

One other suggestion: Don't get into a "My Jesus is better than your Jesus" debate with them. They're trained to combat teachings and claims of other Christian sects. Just stick with the wrongs of Mormonism. If any LDS missionaries want to leave their church and join another branch of Christianity, let them find their own way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2014 08:23PM by randyj.

I second what randyj said... if you try to approach them with the angle of converting them to Christianity, they will push back hard and it'll be too late - they'll be very guarded around you.

A better approach may be for you to print off the recently released controversial essays at mormonessays.com and tell them that you can't bring yourself to believe because of what's in the essays. Ask them if they can come back and talk with you about them. This should be "safe" territory since the essays come from lds.org.

straight off lds.org and make sure the URL shows too. Why get them off anything except the DIRECT source.

Yup - mormonessays.com does not have the essays; it just is a central location that points to the various essays on lds.org since they're hard to get to. But I agree, print them with the URL visible. They need to know that this is their church speaking to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2014 09:59PM by exodus.

One item from my shelf came from my mission. A lady simply agreed that she, too, believed in eternal families. This left me stuttering, realizing that the answer to THAT was, "Well, God will separate your family unless you do what we tell you to do!" I had learned to believe in a loving God, and also in eternal angency. This simple agreement made me realize that the church actually taught neither of these consistently.

If you are interested in what goes through the missionaries' minds when they visit other churches, just read their blogs. They write things like how weird other church services are, how they can't feel the presence of the Holy Ghost at other churches, how wonderful it would be if all those lost souls would just listen to the missionaries' message about the true church then they would have happier lives. It's over-the-top self-righteously disrespectful.

Being out of the church these many years it's so hard to imagine I used to think like them. Their helping your friend is a tactic to get her to join, not only to be neighborly. Once she conveys to them in no uncertain terms that she is not interested in joining, they will drop her like a hot potato. They can't be wasting their time on her. They need to be out finding suckers. It's like in any other sales scheme.

I feel for the missionaries, as I was once one that was gung-ho.

Haven't seen them for years, but I invite them in for chats. They ask if they can help with anything, so I've had them splitting wood, etc, anything to give them some better experiences.

I also figure any time with me is less time they are out there bothering others.

I avoid deep discussions with them, as they are pretty much stuck on their missions and are not in a good situation to consider it is all BS.

They have asked me why I don't go to church, and I just told them I'm not a celestial guy. Couldn't stand living where streets paved with gold and thrones, and having to do temple work, etc. Would rather be digging in the dirt.

Hard to argue with someone's tastes.

An incredibly kind intention.

I think it won't work universally, but I think The One True Church is an area of discussion. You sound Christian, so maybe you believe Indians, Chinese, and Congans should be Christians too. The same as Mormons believe everyone should be Mormon.

That's why they are knocking on your door. To find a way to motivate you to be a Mormon.

The choice to believe that being a Mormon is not just the best way to be, but the only way to be is an area of vulnerability. It can be discussed as an affront/an arrogant insult or also as a question of poor reasoning. Why are the warm, fuzzy feelings that make a Mormon feel they are the One True Church any different than the warm, fuzzy feelings that make a Muslim feel they have the One True Religion.

The Mormon missionaries are at a key time in their life with respect to doubling-down on Mormonism or transitioning out. Engaging them well could be very helpful. I would seek out the sincere ones, the listeners. Not the ones who speak on script and do not respond, but only talk. They are future Mormon leaders, listening is not a Mormon virtue, talking well is valued.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 01:48AM by gentlestrength.

I always like to talk about free agency and how I understand they believe that it's sacred to honor that, right?

Then I ask how much free agency they are living right now as missionaries. They will say it's a test for them.

I respond by asking why they would be living Satan's plan as missionaries.

Another question I have for missionaries is if they believe we are literally children of God and if he is a father. They say yes, blah, blah, and then I say that being a parent means loving all your children, right, so why would God give the truth to a tiny sliver of humanity and leave billions with no possibility of returning to him? Is this fair? Does this sound like the unconditional love of a father?

I invite them to dinner and tell them they can use my computer if they want and they can call it a Lost Sheep contact and we can discuss the meat they don't know yet.

That always gets them...meat? You know the meat?

Oh, yes.....


Kathleen

Best thing I've found is to turn the tables on them. Use their last line of defense or their trump card against them. Bear your testimony to them that the Holy Ghost told you that your church is the only true church and it was an experience that is to sacred to talk about. Make sure to get very emotional and near tears when saying it.

They'll either have no response or tell you you've been deceived by the devil. If the latter you respond with how do you know you aren't the one being deceived by the devil.

I've heard many RMs say that hearing someone from another church say the exact same thing we say was devastating to their testimony.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 01:25AM by toast.

This is the kind of conversation I was trying to suggest. I think the sincere missionaries will have to reflect on this position. They know they don't hear a Holy Ghost. They have the same warm, fuzzy feelings about Mormonism that you have about your beliefs.

The two Truths cannot co-exist. They have to reject your position or reject theirs. Sometimes a missionary will reject that Mormonism is The One True Church. Not right away, but eventually. This also will lead to other things like the BoM, their mission call, the priesthood, answers to prayers, and the temple.

Yes I agree, this approach won't have immediate results, almost nothing can when someone's been conditioned a certain way their whole life, but it's planting the seed of doubt in their mind to spring forth later like when they run into historical issues later in life and say to themselves 'but I have a testimony I know it's true.' Then in pops the memory of that guy on their mission that also knew his religion was true. Bam! Then hopefully they start to realize that maybe they are the ones that have been wrong this whole time.

I was a missionary 12 years ago in a non-Christian country (Taiwan), and it was that exposure to a different culture that eventually led to my leaving Mormonism. Up until then I was definitely TBM, but when it finally hit me that other people felt just as strongly about their religion being correct over all others as I did, I realized that my testimony didn't mean anything other than my own desire to be correct. Both couldn't be correct according to Mormonism, but why were my feelings more relevant than theirs? Without physical proof and only relying on your feelings, there is no way to determine which is correct. It was this realization that allowed me to break down the walls the church had built up and gave me the courage to really look into the church and their claims. It's funny how a mission can do that to you. That experience definitely changed my life for the better, because it eventually allowed me to be free to make my own decisions in life.

Thanks everyone. Your stories and advice give me courage.

When they speak about families being together forever, just ask what do you mean? Somehow they have to go to the PGP and there will be the kicker.... So if they get their own worlds and their kids get theirs and so on and so forth.... So how will families be together forever?