Topic was closed...so thought I would throw my two cents in.

*You fell in love. You fell out of love. Love can always come back IF its the choice of two people who want to work at it.
It sounds like SHE fell out of love with you too. We work with people we love. We make their dreams, goals and desires as valuable as our own. If YOU are the only person making only HER dreams come true..there is a lack of balance.

*Your marriage sounds like an arrangement of convenience with an attitude of entitlement. Being a SAHM is a gift, not a right.

*Marriage is NOT all about the kids (Mormonism really focuses on a couple staying together forever, even if miserable. Raise the babies and pay your tithe. Your personal happiness with your spouse matters not. This thinking does not work!

A marriage is a commitment for two people who both the best of what they have to the table to feast on. You BOTH give 100%. Not 50%. 50-50 is for divorce.

If you really do not want a divorce, go look in your wife's eyes and say...You know what? I MISS my wife. Have you seen her?

What happened to the woman that was focused on a shared relationship with the man she married? The one that does not give the leftover scraps of time and affection, but carves out a healthy chunk of her time JUST FOR HIM. Yes, the children are important, but it is also important for the children to see Mom and Dad loving and respecting one another.

Mormonism creates dysfunctional families based on poor matching. I did the same THING.

Now, here is the harsh reality. When you became the apostate you may have become less worthy in your wife's eyes. She may be thinking..."My husband 'left' me, so Im going to make him PAY". So, it is possible in her realm you are being punished with indentured servitude towards her for "changing" the image of what she thought was the ideal marriage and family.

If she is a True Blue Mormon, she has been molded and conditioned to believe that if she stayed true to the faith, she deserved the worthy, forever, faithful spouse. She may feel a lot less "effort" now since the "prize" has devalued.

It is time to bring all your thoughts out into the open with your wife. You told some strangers here, but now you need to have a sit down and tell her that you are not happy and you do not love her. Let her know the things you do appreciate. Tell her the things you miss. If you have not made any decisions about staying or going...tell her that too. If changes need to be made (from either her or yourself) speak up!

At this point, you have both been married long enough and are wise enough to know about cause and effect...and trending. There has been an obvious decline in the satisfaction of your marriage for both of you.

Is it time to ask-can we BOTH be happy in this?

So, when is it over? When there is nothing left to salvage, fix, discuss, heal and an impasse has been reached where one or both parties can not be happy with the current conditions.

One thing I have always mentor others on is to ask yourself..

"How bad does it have to be, before you call it quits?"
There. You just defined your breaking point.

RMM

People who were close, because that's what circumstances arranged, can grow apart with the circumstances change.

When you marry someone with whom you are friends, there's a mutual energy that you share that's about the friendship, not the sex/love/orgasms. Like that friend you made the first year at that company you were both working at and it was a great friendship and then one of you moved on but every time meet up, even if it's been years, you're still on the same wave length, speaking a language that no one else can quite get.

When you get to fall in love with this kind of friend, both the friendship and the love support each other and they endure.

If someone was in a relationship that actually was injurious because it had degraded, for whatever reason, one that that happens by staying in that relationship is that it makes it very difficult to find the person with whom you would really, really be happy. If it were easy, everyone would do it!

your MORmON secret handshake sealed MORmON mate catches you singing along to the song "Joanna" by Kool and The Gang simply because you like the song and its on the radio, and she is INSANELY jealous ...... even though you have NEVER had a girl friend named Joanna and she knows it because she knows all the names of your previous girl friends .... ... even though you do not even know any woman named Joanna and have never known any woman named Joanna .......
the only thing that you personally know of with the name Joanna is that song and some restaurant (Joanna's Kitchen) which you have NEVER been in ....

Thank you for your comments and starting a follow up thread. I have read (and reread) the thread I started yesterday several times. I'm grateful for all the comments, especially those who took the time to share deeply personal stories. This is a topic that is impactful to many people.

I'm at a cross-roads in my life and want to make the best decision for my wife, my children and myself. It weighs heavily on my mind.

Late last night I had a very honest discussion with my wife. What does she want and what are we willing to do to have a happy marriage (if that is what we both want)?

It was a very productive discussion. It's because of the good moments like that I am yet hopeful.

Now, we'll see how committed we both are to not only making it work, but making it wonderful for both of us.

When I was TBM, marriage meant: endure to the end. After leaving the church, life became much more to me. It's not an endurance race to be survived. It's an opportunity to learn, grow, to realize I don't have all the answers and to seek them out! (and yeah, I've been through enough to know that in life, sometimes it is just about surviving the current challenges and getting through until tomorrow).

I want my marriage to have the renewal and passion that I've found since leaving the church.

Thanks for all the fantastic comments. Some of them were hard to read but I considered each one of them and appreciate you all for writing them in a moment of need for me.

I want to clarify just one thing: I value my wife as a SAHM home. She does a great job with the kids and that's a full-time job. I do a very fair share of the cleaning, cooking, all of the outside work on the farm, and child-rearing. I give her time off (a couple times a week). My comment was written too quickly: I had been trying to discuss with her to get a job now that the youngest child was in full-time school. I was willing to divide all the work up 50/50.

Then we had another child and that topic dropped completely.

If something happens to me, I've prepared a massive life insurance policy to protect the family that I leave behind. They are set.

If however, we divorce, my wife will be reliant on alimony to support her. There's been enough struggles in our marriage that I'd love her more self-reliant.

She'll have nothing to do with that discussion.

Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks for the comments. They were very helpful and I'll be rereading them all again.

Hopefulhusband, may I suggest that you also get a massive life insurance policy for your wife, as well. Early in our marriage, we figured what it would take for my husband to replace the work I did as a SAHM. We had four children under the age of five and I had a thriving business from the farm production. To replace my childcare work, house and farm work, and my business income we decided I needed as much insurance as my husband. We started out with a $1M policy for each of us and increased those policies as needed over the years. That action is truly understanding and placing value on the massive contribution your wife gives to your marriage family and marriage. :)

It is so wonderful to hear that you and your wife are having deep and meaningful conversations about your life together. She seems to be willing to take those first steps towards reconciling differences.

I suggest a good, 15-20 year, flat rate, Term Life Insurance policy with a $1M benefit for your wife. :)

Agree, except for the "being an SAHM is a gift" BS. Paid work is not the only worthy contribution to the world, and many women pushed and spiritually abused into being an SAHM within Mormonism would disagree that's it's such a "gift." How do we know the wife is entitled? Being Mormon, she's been told her whole life that if she isn't an SAHM, she's basically abandoning her children and her duties as a woman and believes that to be the word of "God." Not exactly entitlement, more like obligation.

I will clarify what I meant by gift about being a SAHM.
If a family can financially handle one parent being a stay at home parent it is a gift.

Most people can not afford to do that.

I was a SAHM for 8 years before I went back into the workforce. I loved that time of my life. It was happy and it was also hard. At that time I was TBM, so I felt entitled to be the happy homemaker and Mom, but I also enjoyed it.

For myself (again defining my own opinion here) being a SAHM was a gift and I was fortunate for that time in my life.

RMM

I understand that, but that's not everyone's reality. Sometimes staying at home is actually cheaper than paying for childcare if the work someone could get wouldn't cover it. Moreover, I feel uncomfortable labeling someone as entitled when they are immersed in a culture that tells women that to do anything BUT be a SAHM is worthless and offensive to God and family. They are actively discouraged from becoming educated or developing job skills, not just as adults but beginning as kids. Working women in the church are shamed relentlessly and called selfish and entitled. It depends on individual circumstances, but I just wouldn't use anyone's working or nonworking status to shame them or assume they are entitled off the bat.

hopefulhusband, what if you suggest to your wife that she take a class at the local college? It won't bring in any money, but it will be something to broaden her, help her see other possibilities.

That's a great idea. We've discussed it; everything from working on a masters to just studying random/interesting classes. She's not interested.

However, she is very interested in various hobbies like soap-making, natural-living, canning (we have a massive garden), and finding foods/herbs for healthier living. We've had her sign up for a couple of classes offered through the community college (just 1 day events, not college credit: things like baking with natural yeast or herb-gardening) and she's enjoyed those. So, although she's not interested in formal education, she reads/studies a lot of things that directly benefits our family. Without her ability to can/preserve the food, my gardens/orchards/berry bushes would largely be wasted. Her natural sunscreen works fantastic (and smells amazing).

In the previous post, I mentioned that she shut down my discussion about getting a job to support her hobbies. I don't mean these types of hobbies but rather for her desire to travel/vacation (and to pay for her family to visit us). We can support it off my income, but I want to own the farm and pay the mortgage down faster than we currently are....an extra income would have been a great addition.

With the recent (and very wonderful) child added to our brood, that's off the table...and understandably so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 12:23PM by hopefulhusband.

Perhaps your wife would be interested in starting her own farm business from home. She could turn her soap making, natural sunscreen & body lotions, and fresh garden produce & preserves into a thriving business! :)

I was thinking the same thing. It seems a bit patronizing to me to call those things hobbies. She could be selling her goodies -- as much or as little as she sees fit -- at local farmer's markets or whatever. If she got a job to "support" those hobbies, she wouldn't have time for the hobbies anymore.

But it really sounds like she is not really interested in contributing to the income of the family; she is only interested in contributing her services. That's still a valuable contribution and is worth something. Growing and preserving food is a ton of super hard work, is hugely time consuming and is not worthless at all. It's not a hobby! She's probably saving a fortune in groceries, especially on sunscreen/lotions and soaps, which are relatively expensive.

I actually respect her a bit more now that I've read that tidbit. The previous thread sort of made her sound like a spoiled brat who didn't want to do anything to contribute to the family's wellbeing. Now, I see that she's working her ass off to contribute to the family's wellbeing and she's not shackled to a crappy desk in some shitty cubicle farm. Good for her.

+1

I think Hopefulhusband and Hopefulwife both sound amazing! I hope they choose to focus on each other and the wonderful life they have built together!

In that case, she needs a booth at your local Farmer's Market.

New baby says it all! Sounds like everyone is sleep deprived, sex deprived and generally exhausted all the way around.

Hang in there, Hopefulhusband! Keep communicating. :)

I hope you are not paying tithing! My biggest regret about being Mormon is how it put my retirement in jeopardy. It is something that could be putting you and your family in a bad place. If your wife is tithing on your income (even if it's half for her part) put your foot down on that. If she want's to earn a salary and pay on that it's her business but your income is yours to direct. I cannot emphasize this hard enough. LDS, Inc. has more than enough for its needs!

I think it's awfully hard to give good advice about a marriage even with loads more information that we have. We have the information from one side so some are basing their conclusions on that, and some are trying to fill in for the wife's side of the argument, but it's a big gap to fill.

The thing is no one has to stay in a marriage even if their spouse is supportive and doing a good job. You can't abandon and adult, as long as you give them reasonable support and accommodation during the transition period.

Some people get divorced and then realize they did it for trivial reasons. I don't think you have a hot gold digger on the side who keeps nagging you about when you are finally going to leave your wife so you can give yourself over to hot sex and emotional abuse, if this happens to be the case I would say that's probably a bad idea.

Some people stay in a marriage and later realize it was a mistake.

None of us can know how hard your wife works. If your wife really were lazy, and you said it, you would trigger a lot of angry responses. Or maybe you are a jerk that slaves her to death and doesn't appreciate what she does. But that's probably a side issue anyway. I don't think most people leave because of laziness unless the spouse is really unreasonably lazy.

It sounds like you are mostly not happy with what seems like the invalidation of your thoughts, concerns, goals etc. If that is your main concern, I think you would want to base your choice on whether or not she is really willing to see your thoughts and choices as valid for you, and worthy of her respect, and how long you think it might take her to get there.

My female teacher friends joke that, "we each of us want a wife" -- meaning that we'd love to have someone to hold down the home front, and do the cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing, gardening, child care, errands, plus deal with mechanics, repairmen, etc. Please do not undervalue your wife's contribution. By taking care of the above duties, she is making your life a lot easier.

You mentioned that she puts a lot of demands on you. Without specifics, it's hard to give advice in that regard. But if she's running you ragged, you might consider talking to her about prioritizing her requests.

I would let her choose her own pace in terms of joining the workforce. She may not be ready until your kids are in high school or later (or perhaps ever.) A family friend (who was a SAHM of many years standing) raised four boys. When they had left the nest, one of them talked to her about manufacturing a treasured family recipe that she had developed. She is now the owner of a very successful small business that employs several family members and sells to Whole Foods among other clients.

I like the idea of your wife's home made sunscreen lotion. Perhaps one day with the help of your kids, that could be her own small business.

If you are still contemplating divorce, go have a consult with a lawyer just so you know the good, the bad, and the ugly. I always advocate for making decisions fully informed.

But to me, it sounds like your wife has a lot of positives. Try focusing on the positives for a while and see if that helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 07:11PM by summer.

Many SAHM are savvy enough to know that when a spouse starts talking about them getting a job, they might be thinking divorce and that their payments will be less if they can just get the spouse to get a minimum wage job. That may be why your suggestion causes so much trouble.

If she were to consult an attorney, she would likely be advised not to get a job, but to begin getting an education that will help her earn a wage enough to support the entire family and herself.

when your 'TBM' spouse opens a secret bank account, files FALSE financial statements, won't go to the nudist club you joined together...

Can this information be used against you if she takes you to
court? I heard lawyers are using social media to win divorce cases.