In Sunday's NY Times (Nov. 30) a good article by Timothy Egan on the church's "coming clean" about polygamy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/timothy-egan-sex-and-the-saints.html?emc=edit_tnt_20141129&nlid=58577100&tntemail0=y&_r=0

Exerpts:
"One of his brides was a 14-year-old girl, or as church officials put it in an essay, she was “sealed” to Smith “several months before her 15th birthday.” Well, that changes everything."

"How is Smith’s behavior, some Mormons have asked, any different from that of the crazed religious zealot who kidnapped 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart in 2002 and forced her to have sex with him? Both men say they were commanded by God."

"...the church should make it clear that religious leaders cannot have sex with young girls just because an angel told them it was O.K. to do so."

"Considering that it took the Mormon Church more than a century to acknowledge what scholars have long known to be true, it may take another hundred years for the elders in Salt Lake City to proclaim that the prophet, seer, revelator and founder of their religion was the kind of guy who would have to register with the police today before moving into a neighborhood."

..."Dear Jesus..........take this bitter cup!"

Only two reader's comments so far, but both are noteworthy:


poster Diana Moses:

"If we are going to talk about hearing God's commands or the recommendations of angels, can we also talk about "spiritual spam"? Not everything people "hear" is what they think they are hearing. Not to mention the issue that our perception is greatly influenced by our own preexisting "issues," especially if we have not learned how to quiet our ego-self when we try to listen."

poster gemli:

"Beliefs which make it holy for middle-aged men to have lots of young "wives" makes me wonder if any appetite is not so base that it cannot be elevated to the level of a sacrament..."

"Spiritual spam" I love it.

The Judeo-Christian definition of idolatry is worshipping any created thing. Angels are created. Unthinking obedience is worship. Therefore JS was an idolator.

If a Mormon claims to be Christian., they have no excuse for staying, no matter what the upside is for them. They should flee idolatry as their scriptures instruct.

"Smith was a man of God, no doubt. But he was also a man, with considerable appetites. In his defense, he came to his decision only under duress, the church explained: a sword-wielding angel forced him to take up a life of sanctioned promiscuity. That cherub, it should be noted, bears little resemblance to the guardian angel that kept many a Catholic boy from going beyond a first kiss."

That one made me laugh out loud. It's nice to read something by a writer who knows the material and has done some research instead simply recyling what was provided by the church.

Devastating.

Written in the spirit of Mark Twain in arguably the nation's most influential newspaper.

They may as well close down their missions in NY.

The English speaking ones, anyway.

I liked this comment by Diana Moses:
"If we are going to talk about hearing God's commands or the recommendations of angels, can we also talk about "spiritual spam"? Not everything people "hear" is what they think they are hearing. Not to mention the issue that our perception is greatly influenced by our own preexisting "issues," especially if we have not learned how to quiet our ego-self when we try to listen."


I'm not sure if every ego is greatly influenced by their sexual nature, but it was in JS case.

edited to add:

maybe Joe Jr could have quieted his ego-self by taking a hundred cold dips a day in the river.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2014 07:59PM by MyTempleNameIsJoan.

From the article,

"I wondered about arrangements, and jealousies, the conjugal timing of the man who to married to 55 women by most accounts. I didn't ask the sexual acrobatics of the great pioneer (Brigham Young), just the spreadsheet logistics of managing all those spouses."

"spreadsheet logistics"--suggestive of BYUBoner's naughty posts.

seems to me that old JS was a porn addict. No movies and no mags as of today. Instead he had real women to "view" in order to satisfy his porn addiction.

Best article yet.

I see others above are commenting on this one:

>Smith was a man of God, no doubt.

Seriously?

His fruits say otherwise.

Of course, I'm bedeviled by those old LDS perfectionist notions; there were two 14-year old wives, and about a third were under the age of 17...

My take: If the guy knows what I know, this was all he could get past the NY Times editors at this time.

...this is obviously a throw away line. Just to establish in the reader's minds that he doesn't have a personal vendetta against the religion or Smith. He then goes on to tear him to shreds.

And I think he is also subtly making the point...many people claim to be "Men of God" and use this as a pretext to commit heinous crimes. So Joseph Smith as a "man of God" just fits the mold of religious charlatans across the centuries.

Great opinion piece, btw.

If that view works for you, and apparently some posters above.

I hadn't run across the term "throwaway line" before, and from painful personal experience as well as that of others, I've learned that sarcasm doesn't fare well in most essays.

On the other hand, I've seen too many people give what I think is way too much credit to Joseph Smith for his "spirituality" (Dan Vogel among them, or Jan Shipps), and I remain in the cynic's camp, concluding he was essentially a deluded narcissist (and I've had clinical experience with sexual predators myself) who inflicted his brand of madness on others and benefitted from the frontier environment where his "salesmen" spread his words at least as successfully as he did.

And I remain doubtful the gray lady's handmaidens would permit such crass analysis to appear in print.

I side with Cabbie on this point.

As a nevermo who grew up in Mesa AZ, I'm living proof that their brainwashing reaches beyond their official jurisdiction.

The unrelenting mormon PR long ago put a vague idea in the American mind that mormons really are better than the rest of us slobs. There is a long history of journalists hedging their criticism of TSCC with lines such as the one above, or "While mormons are some of the best people I've met..."

I see it getting a little better since the "Mormon Moment", but as we see in this otherwise excellent article, it's not completely gone.

"the prophet, seer, revelator and founder of their religion was the kind of guy who would have to register with the police today before moving into a neighborhood."

Joe was a sexual predator. Even went so far as grooming young girls in his own home for some time before 'marrying' them.

He is only a bit less sick than those who think this is OK.

NICE. Thanks Richard for putting up the link.

My NYT comment got filtered. I don't know the why... It wasn't too bad.

Hats off to Timothy Egan for the gutsy writing and the NYTimes for publishing his writing.

Thanks Richard for posting.

Hard to pick out a fav quote, but my vote goes to

>Considering that it took the Mormon Church more than a century to acknowledge what scholars have long known to be true, it may take another hundred years for the elders of Salt Lake City to proclaim that the prophet, seer, revelator and founder of their religion was the kind of guy who would have to register with the police today before moving into a neighborhood.

presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hats off to Timothy Egan for the gutsy writing and
> the NYTimes for publishing his writing.
>
> Thanks Richard for posting.
>
> Hard to pick out a fav quote, but my vote goes to
>
> >Considering that it took the Mormon Church more
> than a century to acknowledge what scholars have
> long known to be true, it may take another hundred
> years for the elders of Salt Lake City to proclaim
> that the prophet, seer, revelator and founder of
> their religion was the kind of guy who would have
> to register with the police today before moving
> into a neighborhood.


^ *best * ^

Great article and brilliantly sensible.

Mormonism creates a huge problem in its insistence upon the virtual infallibility of the prophet. The only time a prophet's teachings can be questioned is when they conflict with a later prophet's teachings. Apart from that, when the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.

Compare this to the scrutiny of Old Testament prophets. Followers were called to test what they said against existing law. If the prophet spoke anything that conflicted, it was time for him to get stoned. And not in a Colorado sense.

I think the term is very broad, and is used broadly by those claiming the title, to cover many sins.

Years ago in our rural neighborhood a very devout Christian bought some land and proceeded to log it. He hadn't checked the property lines carefully, and clear-cut several acres of the neighbor's property. In our state, that is a tort that allows the victim to collect double or even triple damages.

When the neighbor demanded the damages and threatened to sue, the Christian objected, and asked the neighbor simply to forgive him. The reason? "I am a man of God," he said.

Throwaway lines and punches prudently pulled are Robert Kirby's stock in trade ......and the main reason he still holds a recommend.

Methinks perchance the NYT has simply taken a page from the Kirby playbook.

And deftly done at that, I'd say.

The readers comments total is now 219, versus 233 yesterday: does that reflect pruning alone, or pruning followed by additional new comments allowed in?

My comments remain ...