I'm going to be meeting with my home teaching companion tomorrow night, and he said he is going to address some of my "concerns" about the gospel. I have no idea what to expect, but I think there's a high likelihood of "follow the spirit" and "BYU scholars have explained that." One way or another, I love discussing this stuff with TBMs, though unfortunately they almost always end up making themselves look stupid.

I'm keeping the big gun in back, just in case he proves stubborn. If he can answer the big gun, I'll be satisfied. I'll repeat from the subject line:

How do you know that the spirit is a reliable source of truth? Because the spirit says so!

Isn't that circular logic? Shouldn't you verify the reliability of the spirit, externally and through controlled means?

Does anyone have any idea how a TBM might answer this question?

My only idea is "you have to be humble, and if you take that attitude then you're unworthy of the spirit."

I think you might be interested in Peter's response to Elder Berry's post about getting TBM's to see the absurdity in mormonism.

Though, I'm not sure he is going to stick around and play...

Thanks for drawing my attention to that post!

Ahhh, the philosophical approach. It's an even larger fall-back than the spirit is. "We can't really know anything for sure, so we should just choose what seems right." Isn't it painfully obvious how this can be just as easily turned against the church, and in much more powerful fashion?

I hadn't thought about the possibility of him turning to that. My mind is already reeling with new potential arsenal.

That response also reminds of the response of some of my family members, claiming that their spiritual feelings have been right more often than their mental reasoning. I guess for many this is true, but it's not really a fair answer. I can't respond in any kind of honesty without insulting their intelligence. I suppose they perceive my silence as them having won the argument.

Of course, these are the same people who think Glen Beck is the second coming, so they probably really don't know if their "right" is right after all.

...where someone's mental state lies if they adore Glen Beck.

You should ask him why that "burning in the bosom" explanation of the spirit testifying is shockingly similar to what you felt when Rocky beat Apollo Creed for the title. Tell him you must have a testimony that Rocky is the true movie of god.

I'd like to be a fly on that wall.

Ron

Good idea! I'll bring a tape recorder, make a transcript, return and report. It's another response to the philosophical approach mentioned above.

False doctrine! Rocky beats Apollo in Rocky 2. All other rocky movies are part of the great and abominable rocky movie.

Comparative religions.

"The spirit" seems to work best in whatever organization makes you feel good.

And... The JW guys in Brooklyn have done a "great job" in debunking all their detractors. Should the average JW just accept that?

That's the cool thing about being outside the box/cave... you get the whole picture as opposed to what your leaders claim/want you to believe.

"Believe the leaders - they know," and "evil lies coming from the devil" are lines used to keep people from learning on their own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 03:55PM by jpt.

:-)

...How do we know that Mormon church leaders "would never lead us astray"? --Because MORMON CHURCH LEADERS tell us so!

How do we know the Bible is the word of God? Because it says it is.
Totally circular logic, and religionists don't seem to see that.

you know for me, when confronted by TBMs regarding the spirit, I tell them "I just don't feel the spirit when I consider JS married teenagers and other men's wives, destroyed his internal church enemies, and physically destroyed the press to cover his tracks ... all I feel is confusion. Is this not a manifestation that Mormonism and/or JS are false?"

really, you can plug in whatever concern you have ... it's a concern because it feels horrible to contemplate it.

The TBM cannot explain this without getting offensive ... ie., "oh that's the devil, or you not reading your scriptures, or, you're not doing it right, etc. etc."

You need to turn the tables. You are not on trial. The Church / "Restored Gospel" is on trial.

Great reponse, and accurately describes my spiritual experience while falling into apostasy. A stupor of thought comes when I try to rationalize these things, and a burning in the bosom comes when I think about how bad they are.

Why do I feel this? Because you've apparently lost the right spirit. How do I know if I feel the right spirit or wrong one? You'll feel that it's right. Then why do I feel that it's wrong?

My dad once said that the spirit showed him the difference between a true and a false spirit, and now he understands. I don't think it's necessary to start another round of circular logic on that one. It's pretty obvious.

Check out how I reworded the title which probably was served up as the truth back then..

I've heard Elder Pickle ... errr Bednar ... say that we shouldn't wait for an answer to our prayers. We should pray but then go and do it because we already know it's right if it's something the church teaches us. If it's not right, God would stop us in our effort. Interesting touch there, isn't it.

rotflol,

Bednar Bednar Bednar...

No he wouldn't stop us. That's what free agency is all about. Otherwise bad things wouldn't happen to good people and there wouldn't be good people of incorrect faiths all over the world.

Bednar shoots from the hip. I don't think he considers the long term effects of his doctrinal pronouncements.

Cheesy mysticism.

It was so ridiculous it actually made me wonder if he's trying to let people in on the secret -- prayers don't get answered so get up and do something without the answers.

when it has long been an issue with people feeling uncomfortable or weirded out by the temple ceremony?
BTW, in 1988 and 1989, questionaires were sent out asking people how the Endowment affected them. In 1990 it was altered to remove throat and chest slashing, as well as the Five points of fellowship.

If the spirit CAN be trusted, it should be a dead giveaway that these uncomfortable feelings are a warning in the temple just as they would be anywhere else.

You have a good question though, but unfortunately the answer is usually that with faith, you can recognize the true spirit.

My big gun question that I have held back from using would be this (for leaders over forty):
When you did this (run thumb across throat) in the temple, did you *really* feel like you were in the presence of a loving Heavenly Father?

"The world we see is real...because the body's senses--which are part of the world--tell me so!" The body is just as much a biased source of 'truth' about what the body senses.

and the spirit is at least as good a source of information if not better, and I can't explain why, you just have to experience it yourself. Yeah yeah, I've heard that before. It's the ultimate fall-back when TBMs are against the wall, and I used it myself on many occasions as a TBM for over 20 years.

Unfortunately the TBMs don't realize that it pokes an equal number of holes in their own arguments as it does the opposition. If anything, at that point they're conceding to agnosticism.

For me, I like to start with the assumption that I exist, and that I can reason my existence based on rational analysis of my various stimuli. This assumption may be wrong, but I don't think I can get anywhere without it.

The next assumption is that my mind correctly records and processes the information. This also may be false, but as long as the information fits together without disparity I can feel comfortable that it is functioning properly. If there is a disparity I need to re-analyze my various stimuli to seek a reconciliation. Again, without this in place I can't get anywhere.

Then I must consider each of my stimuli with impartiality and fairness, pitting them against eachother for agreement.

And what have I found? There seemed to have been a large amount of disparity between my spiritual stimulus and the rest of them put together, as pertaining to how information agreed that was processing in my mind.

And what was I to do? Why, analyze my spiritual inputs and the reliability of the stimulus of course. I performed similar investigations on my other stimuli and found them to be sound. The spirit failed shockingly easily.

So a sense which I once thought was more reliable than any of the others was now invalid, and I had an intellectual obligation to dismiss it. This is reason, and reason is existence.

Cogito ergo sum

him a little test. Come up with a secret number. Have him ask The Spirit what the number is and then you can both determine if its true.

Repent.
Repent and do everything you can to get back into the church, and be valiant in your tithtes and duties. Go every Sunday.

After you've proven yourself and gotten a calling, get up in Fast and Testimony meeting and once you've got everyone in tears, tell them that this is how easy it is to manipulate people into feeling the spirit, and then tell them you were joshing them the whole time and walk out.

Didn't Daniel C. Petersen just write an article stating that the best evidence for an apostasy was the "restoration" of the gospel? TBMs are foolish, ridiculous, anti-intellectual people. Definitely a cult where mind control is at work.

Emo Philips: “I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.”

The body exists only to serve The Brain. Every action of the human body is controlled and every outcome is calculated for the benefit of its master, the brain, the puppetmaster which sits secured in its fortress of bone issuing commands and satisfying its primal demands, aided by its ally the hard and awful looking skeleton.

My RM son told me that he realised how ridiculous relying on 'The Spirit' was after he noticed that he felt the same 'spiritual' feeling when his football team scored a goal as when he was in a Church meeting.

Or perhaps Norwich City Football Club is the One True Football Club.

I feel the spirit when I watch steamy love scenes. Turns out the holy ghost likes sex.

I was married to a man with schitzophrenia. He wasnt mormon but I really thought when I first married him he was the most spiritual man ever. Before it was obvious to me he was dangerous and insane, I witnessed him recieving revelations and it was just like I learnedSunday school stories. I was sure my purpose was to bring this prophet to Gods one true religion. He was such a handsome charismatic man. The disease is progressive and he became abusive. Now I am very skeptical of spiritual witnesses. I figure if there is a just God he understands why I demand proof. I don't feel it is necessary to hold God to a lower standard than I hold myself and choose to believe in God in as much as he reveals himself to me personally. So far God seems to be pretty hands off. I dont believe in fooling myself to make others happy or looking for signs.

The Spirit as evidence, oh boy.

I can only speak for myself, but whatever feeling I used to interpret as the Spirit, I still feel on occasion-- maybe while watching a great movie, or hearing an inspiring speech, or engaging in an interesting conversation.

I've had to explain this before to a TBM. I've felt the Spirit in the church and out of it. The two feelings are indiscernible. So it is either a poor source of truth, or more likely, it is a physiological phenomenon.

We know about physiological effects. Occam's razor says that this too is probably similar to being embarrassed, or angry, or relieved. The brain affects the body. Why should we assume this feeling is brought about by an outside source?