"If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or religion, I would not hesitate to get rid of religion."

http://thesunmagazine.org/issues/369/the_temple_of_reason?page=2



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2014 08:14PM by Tal Bachman.

oh dear...this is going to roll out like a tsunami. Of course you're correct to criticize Sam Harris for saying that. I disagree with him myself. No one should have to answer such an apples and oranges question in the first place, but now that the subject's been broached...

I'm among the most extreme religion haters on this board. But rape is always bad, and religion is frequently bad, so rape's gotta go first. Mr Harris says that religion does more damage than rape, and he is correct on that point. It's not even close. But you gotta clean up the streets first before you go after the crooks in the chapels.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2014 08:32PM by donbagley.

It fits perfectly with Mormonism considering how many Mormons have stated they would rather have their kid in a casket than be raped, or even voluntarily sexually active.

I agree with Sam, again.

Religion has killed far more people than rape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2014 08:48PM by deco.

Tal, Tal, Tal. When will you stop your obsession with trying to discredit Sam? You're not getting any traction with me, or many others, I suspect. Sam-bashing is becoming a favorite sport of knee-jerk reactionaries everywhere. It's is a very transparent attempt to repeatedly misquote out of context and it's getting rather tiresome.

+1

Plus it's not like religion and rape are mutually exclusive. The former has led to the latter many times (Elizabeth Smart anyone????).

Religion often creates the rape culture. Look what huge parts of Islam does to women, can't go out of the house without an escort, must wear a burka, can't refuse sex with her husband even when she does not want it (religiously enforced rape), has no right to vote, is the husband's property.....

Making women property as religion often has, creates the rape culture by dehumanizing women and giving them no right to say no.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2014 11:12PM by MJ.

you're fucked either way.

Getting fucked is not the same thing as being raped. Conflating the two is so very wrong.

Getting fucked is great, it's wonderful, it's sexy and it's fun.

Getting raped is being violently assaulted, it's being abused, it's not about sex and it's not fun.

Many an altar boy can tell you they aren't mutually exclusive

And the world is full of religion that preach misogyny causing great harm, including rape and subjugation of Women.

What a jerk. Comparing anything to rape like that is appalling and sick. I also hate it when movie stars talk about how the paparazzi intrusions are like being raped. Paparazzi might be awful but it's disgusting that anyone would compare what they do to rape. Religion may not be for everyone but being raped isn't for anyone.

I also hate it when people compare all religions to Mormonism. Mormonism, JWs, Scientology and other cults are much worse than your average religion. If you want to say that religion is worse than no religion, be my guest but religions are varying degrees of awful and it downplays the damage Mormonism does to compare it to other churches. And it downplays the damage rape does to compare it to religion.

Maybe we should put the author in a prison for a while and spread the rumor he's a child molester and see who treats him better - the religious fraudsters or the rapists.

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What a jerk. Comparing anything to rape like that
> is appalling and sick.

It may not be a comparison, but a statement that getting rid of religion could reduce violent and hateful crimes caused by regions that preach misogyny against women more than getting rid of rape.

How much psychological harm is done to women that are forced burkas, and all the other repulsive things because if Islamic beliefs?

Yes, Sam Harris wants to prevent you from being property without the right to refuse sex.

Ready to wear a burka every day of your life and be owned by your husband to prevent rape? Don't forget, he can not rape you because he owns you and you can not deny sex with him.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 12:48AM by MJ.

I love the response Dave the Atheist gave. 'you're fucked either way'.

Miss characterization of what Sam said, PITIFUL, just pitiful.

Expected from someone on a vendetta.

The way I read Sam is that he is saying he believes that more harm is done by religion as a whole than all the rapists as a whole. Big difference from your miss characterization.

Oh dear. Did Tal suggest that someone's Prophet of God is just an ordinary, everyday, garden-variety insensitive pig? (And something of an idiot?)

How terrible. But I can't wait for the Second Board Coming -- when y'all finally catch up with the times (which keep eluding you) and you can FINALLY can confess to the delusions and weaknesses that swamped you during your Angry Atheist stage. You will all troupe off to form a ex-exMormon board where you can moan, "I can't believe how I swallowed everything Steve Benson said whole!" "I can't believe I was defending SAM I'M A HATEFUL BIGOT HARRIS!" I guess it won't really be that different from what goes on here now, come to think of it.

Let's see -- if Thomas Monson said "If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or secularism, I would not hesitate to get rid of secularism," THEN would you suddenly get it?

Imagine the outpouring of rage here! Well, sadly, in his own little way, that is what Harris said.

Naw, your case isn't so weak that you would have to do that would you?

"Did Tal suggest that someone's Prophet of God ..." I guess it is.

Why do you Sam haters have to stoop to such tactics?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2014 10:02PM by MJ.

My wife responded that anyone who could imagine to make such a comparison has clearly never been raped.

She probably has never been owned by her husband, forced to wear a burka, not allowed out of the house unless accompanied by man that she must walk 3 feet behind. She is not denied an education or the right to vote.

Oh yeah, she would have no right to refuse sex to her husband. You know, there would be no concept of spousal rape.

Yes, religion includes Islam and the belief that women are nothing but property. A religion that creates the rape culture. Oh, wait, it isn't a rape culture because there is no concept of spousal rape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 12:18AM by MJ.

Sam is his own worst enemy. What a fucktard he is to even go there. Is he really so stupid that he has to say more misogynist crap that has gotten his ass in a sling two or three times already? Maybe it is so ingrained in him he just can't keep it in. The guy makes Rush Limbaugh look sensitive.

Without even commenting on his ridiculous ethics, Sam Harris is too stupid--in all the ways that matter--to be taken seriously.

For all of you defending him, I recommend stopping. He's a lost cause. An idiot who can't keep his foot out of his mouth and his head out of his ass.

And don't be hypocritical by defending him either. If one of the q12 had said "being atheist is worse than being raped" you would be calling for his head on a platter.

Just my two cents.

Wow, what a compelling argument, bwahahahahahhahaha.

You must have a really weak factual argument.

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam

There is an entire chapter devoted to this in the Sahih Muslim collection. The title of the chapter speaks in volumes as we read:

Sahih Muslim. Chapter 29: Title: It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified of menses or delivery. In case she has a husband, her marriage is abrogated after she becomes captive.

***
Guarding private parts is denotative of abstaining from sexual activities. The Qur'an points out successful believers are those who are indulging in sexual activities only with their wives and sex-slaves.

***
There is no equivalent term for ‘rape’ in the Qur'an. Likewise, there is not a single verse in the Qur'an which even remotely discourages forced sex. In contrast, there are several verses in this book which give the green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women.

***

Oh, yeah, eliminating "rape" is so much better than a culture of maintaining women as sex slaves. Yeah, S Harris is a real jerk for opposing religious condoned sex slavery.

There's a difference?

MJ just owned this thread.

I'm so sick of this notion that religion is benign. Newsflash to everyone, religion is by far the number one cause of brutality, slavery, sexual crimes, fraud, and other crimes in the world. It gets a free pass because of god. Apparently people in this thread are't immune to the ploy. Or maybe we're just too comfortable in our couches sipping our favorite drink to even give a second thought to what's occurring on the other side of the world and more to the point, what the cause of it all is.

Look, MJ and dude, I don't want to criticize you too harshly for your rather unlettered analyses of the situation. I am glad you have zeal for your causes, even if they are sociologically illiterate and historically inaccurate.

Suffice it to say you have both erected clumsy straw men. No one has said religion gets a free pass, exldsdude, you made all that up and then got pissed at it.

Mj has just argued that it would be better to get rid of religion than rape because some religions seem to almost condone rape. The fecklessness of this argument should be immediately apparent to you. If you get rid of rape, you get rid of religiously condoned rape also, some the one is contained in the other. If you deconstruct what you are saying it amounts to arguing that we should get rid of people instead of murder because some people murder. nice work.

And Lot offering up his daughter to rape.

Yes, I argued exactly what you said.

I am arguing that getting rid of individual raping an individual is not as effective as getting rid of religions condoning, preaching, teaching and enforcing a rape culture. It is not just some religions it is the two largest religions in existence representing the vast majority of the religious.

I have also pointed out that the harm religion does not only included rape but also goes well beyond the rape to flat out abuse.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 01:35AM by MJ.

Ugh, I'm tired and want to go to bed and frankly don't care enough to post a rebuttal. All I'll say is this.

If I have a choice to get rid of 1) organizations that are responsible for murders, sex crimes (including but not exclusive to rape), slavery, wars, fraud, and all other sorts of crimes, and 2) a single crime (rape), it's a no-brainer what I'd choose to eradicate.

You can choose rape, I really don't care. Just giving my two cents because what I DO care about is how religion is viewed (a lot more positively than it should be).

www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

This doesn't come up as a link, but should cut and paste. Phone thing I guess.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 01:30AM by ladell.

MJ "owned the thread"?

That's absurd. MJ is embarrassing in discussions like this. It's a move right out of FAIR to throw out an ad hominem (that I have a "vendetta", unless by that we mean, "I have a disagreement with"), and then a specious accusation that I have "mischaracterized" Sam Harris.

What I did was *quote a sentence* from Sam Harris. How in the world can quoting a sentence, and then posting a link to the interview, constitute a "mischaracterization"? And if by chance you think the title of my post was the mischaracterization, the onus is on you (or MJ) to explain how.

But MJ does not do that (no doubt because s/he can't). No - anyone who merely dares to quote Sam Harris, s/he attacks, exactly like Dan Peterson does anyone who dares quote Brigham Young.

The fact of the matter is that for all their pretensions to critical thinking and humanitarian politics, Sam Harris and his friends consistently throw out opinions which, if they had been voiced by the likes of Boyd Packer, everyone on here would condemn. And for some reason, Harris and friends are especially obsessive and objectionable when it comes to opinions on sex and sexual violence. You wishing it were otherwise does not take away from the reality of their own words.

For example, Harris's friend Dawkins writes in "The God Delusion" that repeatedly raping and/or molesting a child is "arguably less harmful" than believing in God. In my books, you have to be a completely warped, sick pervert or imbecile to believe that. Shermer thinks it's okay to bed a stranger near alcohol-induced blackout, and Dawkins thinks that's okay, too. In fact, Dawkins' only reprimand was to the young woman who dared complain about Shermer's behaviour.

And here, Sam Harris says that, if forced to choose, he would rather wipe out religion than rape. That is, again, completely warped, not least because although Harris seems to forget this constantly, not every religion is Islam, or as pernicious as Islam. On this planet, we have Buddhism, we have Shinto, we have Confucianism, we have Taoism, we have all kinds of religions and religious traditions which, whether in spirit or word, forbid rape. Does Sam Harris really believe that ridding the world of Buddhism is a more worthy goal than ridding the world of rape? YES HE DOES - and the evidence is, HE SAYS EXACTLY THAT in the article I linked to.

Sam Harris's view that eradicating, say, Buddhism, is a far worthier goal than eradicating violent sexual assaults, is disgusting. Buddhism (for example) has helped many millions of people live a happier, healthier, more peaceful life - rape hasn't. Rape ruins lives. It damages people. It leaves them unable to trust, sometimes pregnant, feeling emotionally shattered - and often, it leaves them in agonizing pain, and bleeding.

Anyone who chooses THAT to stick around, rather than Buddhists meditating, or Shintoists burning incense at a shrine, merits zero respect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 01:39AM by Tal Bachman.

Is it too late to change the title of this thread to " Sam Harris thinks Yoga is worse than Rape." ?

Ah the personal attacks begin.

BTW, quoting a sentence is also called "taking something out of context". No taking something out of context is not all you did, you misrepresented what Harris said in the subject that is, as far as I know, exclusively your own authorship.

You really should not try to mislead when the evidence of the BS is in the same thread.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 02:07AM by MJ.

Hmmm... MJ - If by waving a magic wand you get rid of rape, that would, by definition, get rid of rape in the religious context as well. If you got rid of religion including the religions that sanction various forms of rape, men would still rape, and will establish other justifications for doing so.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 02:05AM by sassenach.

But with Islam, what I consider rape is considered the right of the husband. The religion gives the husband the right to rape his wive with impunity. Get rid of religion and you get rid of religion condoned and supported rape. Oh, wait, according to religion, it isn't rape.

By definition it is still rape - forced sex - so the magic wand will take care of it. :)

That is your definition, as well as mine, not the definition used by Islam. Islam has waved a magic wand and made rape go away, by redefining rape so it does not mean having sex without the permission of the partner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 02:12AM by MJ.

:)

I think for Sam it might be, providing it's motivated by something he calls "religion".

If belligerence conveys ownership of a thread, way to go MJ.

However you have just been pwned.

A little truth really gets under that thin skin as we have seen.

Kudos Tal.

I love how I am getting the personal attacks but nobody addresses my ideas.

So, would you be willing to live a life in a burka and be owned by your husband to stop rape? BTW, what I would consider rape, Islam says is the right of the husband. That is one heck of w way to get rid of rape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 01:57AM by MJ.

In some ways they are the same....

"Sam Harris and his friends consistently throw out opinions which, if they had been voiced by the likes of Boyd Packer, everyone on here would condemn."

= strawman

"On this planet, we have Buddhism, we have Shinto, we have Confucianism, we have Taoism, we have all kinds of religions and religious traditions which, whether in spirit or word, forbid rape."

I don't think Sam would argue that point, but I can only imagine he'd simply say that if we had to get rid of those in order to get rid of extremely harmful religions that are responsible for countless deaths, he'd do it. I'm not sure I can blame him.

"Does Sam Harris really believe that ridding the world of Buddhism is a more worthy goal than ridding the world of rape? YES HE DOES - and the evidence is, HE SAYS EXACTLY THAT in the article I linked to."

No he doesn't. He says Buddhism can be distinguished from religion because it's nontheistic. Argue that point if you wish, but again we have another strawman.

The only thing he has is misrepresenting Atheists and personal attacks.

I would submit Sam Harris was not speaking about Buddism. I would suggest he was speaking about Islam, which he correctly characterized as the "Motherlode of bad ideas" it is my opinion that Christianity comes in a close second in the bad ideas department.

It is neither a strawman nor a bad idea in the comparison of religion to rape, since that is what the quote states!

We must not forget that because of their religious fervor, 19 people stole planes and rammed them into buildings. There is no doubt in my mind that ISIS would do the exact same thing now if it were possible for them. But most important, is the deafening silence of Muslims in condemning these atrocities. That is the real face of their religion, and a hallmark of other religions.

Anything is okay if their home team is doing it.

> Anything is okay if their home team is doing it.

And your religion promises you 40 virgins in the afterlife.

"Believing in religion is worse than being raped" is clearly not what Sam Harris stated. Why do you feel it necessary to intentionally misrepresent the positions of Sam Harris? I would have expect you to have more intellectual integrity than that.

In his attempt to foment discussion, he admittedly makes a hypothetical argument that he believes that religion causes more misery than religion on the planet than rape. It is quite impossible to wave a magic wand to rid humanity of either. If you read the entire article he is concerned about religious impeding stem cell research, vaccination of children for deadly diseases and the potential of Islamic fundamentalists detonating nuclear bombs in the name of jihad as example of religions' misdirected destructive potential.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2014 02:10AM by No Mo.