In this and many societies people have needs of privacy when they use a restroom or disrobe. That's reality.

This doesn't mean they hate anyone. I know a man who can't urinate with anyone else watching. He checks the restroom and goes in when he can have privacy. This doesn't mean he hates casual observers.

When I was in the emergency room last May, the brought me a bedpan and expected me to use it with four or five male and female workers milling about. I said I'd appreciate it if the men would leave and they willingly agreed without judgment or a second thought.

On this board, I mentioned that I was embarrassed at how I was treated during breast cancer radiation. I had been injured during a failed simulation session and my breast looked to me like I had two nipples. I've since had this damage repaired but at that time of vulnerability, I didn't want unconnected strangers staring at my breast, especially men. Someone on this board lashed out at me with the worst and longest list of insults I'd read since joining this board in 1999. His issue was that everyone must allow for open dressing rooms in every situation in case there's someone who feels uncomfortable being sent to a gender specific space. I'll never respect that poster after his vicious outburst.

For years I taught children and I told them they had a right to say no if someone wanted to see or touch their bodies in ways that made them uncomfortable. Saying no is not a message of hate. It's a message of self determination.

I think we need to step back and be reasonable about issues of public restrooms and dressing rooms. Those who like privacy don't deserve to be pilloried. Those in favor of male/female facilities need to accept that these places need to be set up to allow for personal privacy.

Restaurants, tourist centers, and public buildings need to accommodate the needs of whoever uses them.

When I was blind, I didn't demonize seeing people. I counted on them to help me.

I don't think people with personal boundaries are full of hate. And I don't think this society would be well served if my friend in the men's room is mistreated or ridiculed because he arranges bathroom visits with privacy in mind.

how do you decide on the spot who is and who is not the "right" sex?


Every society on Earth at one time or another singles out a minority or sub-group and marks them for discrimination. The minority du jour are trans people.


The first thing I noticed in researching the current restroom/locker room issue is how little attention is paid to trans men. No one really seems to be worried about them -- or concerned for their safety. Trans women, on the other hand, are widely perceived as a threat -- not only by cisgendered men, but also by cisgendered women. Why is this? Why does it matter? The closest thing I could find for comparison is gender testing in sport.


It turns out that it's not a simple matter to scientifically determine who is female and where the line should be for athletic competition. Like the bathroom issue, it's almost always one way -- you don't hear about jockeys being sex tested to see if they are actually male.


One of the fascinating facets of American life is the time and effort spent enacting unenforceable laws for either moral or political purposes. Prohibition was one such law. How would you enforce this without being subjective? Height? Weight? Shoe size? What about intersex people? In some US states people have legal ID and documents that correspond with their gender but not with their anatomy. What happens then? As time passes, there will be more women like Janet Mock -- who transitioned at an early age and never developed secondary sex characteristics -- and less like Caitlyn Jenner who waited until later in life.


You have most likely been somewhere in a restroom with a trans person and didn't even know it. There's a scene in "Exodus" where a British officer tells Paul Newman that he can always tell if someone is a Jew just by looking at them -- then Newman asks the officer to see if he can find something in his eye.


Sexual assault and lewd behaviour are already against the law. I don't see how any of the proposed bathroom laws are going to make any difference ( http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/01/12/florida-experts-debunk-the-transgender-bathroom/207916 ).


I do see that, having lost on the gay issue, Mormons and evangelicals are looking for anther bête noire to mark as "the other" for hate and will exploit fear for their own ends.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 02:05PM by anybody.

for anyone who wants it?

Rather than splintering a minority into ever tinnier factions, I think working on mutual respect would work better to the needs of minorities and everyone else.

but how do you get more of them installed? I think some states have laws now about building more women's restrooms -- every time I go to a stadium, concert, or get off a plane there's always a line for the girl's room.

The building code these days, at least in some states, requires larger restrooms for women than men. Usually if you see same-sized bathrooms it means it is an old building.

The only gendered bathrooms I know of where I live are in the mormon church and the cinema and the bath. Those three and one unisex bathroom in a mall. In most other places, supermarkets, gas stations, clinics, restaurants other malls e.t.c. private bathrooms are the norm. Only problem though is that this is europe so you often have to pay for a bathroom visit.

especially in newer buildings and petrol stations and convenience stores.

There are some deeply unpleasant and nasty people who really should be on pre-mod.

Attacks on people -like that on Cheryl- should not be tolerated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 09:17AM by matt.

I was not referring to you. Unless you were the poster concerned?

Cheryl,

While I don't disagree with the principle behind what you are saying, e.g. that everyone has the right to their own bodies and everyone has a right to privacy;

the examples you cite seem to show that your discomfort with being exposed comes from being ashamed or embarrassed about your bodily functions, or about the way your body looked.

In an ideal world, (imaginary, of course - where no one judges, and where a person is absolutely safe from physical attack)
such natural functions as urinating, or being naked would not cause you such distress.

I have experienced this with a particular group of people at a yearly conference. There judgement is based solely on intellectual contribution.

at the nightly hot-tub bof, among 12-20 people, all ages and shapes, I found it amazing that I was comfortable *naked* or *not-naked*. It *just didn't matter which* - because while someone might glance at you, body shape/style whatever was not why you were invited and not at all important.

This is the only group I've ever felt so safe with.

Shame on you.

That's like the old days here on RfM when multitudes of posters said I must allow missionaries and locals to show up unannounced and cover my discomfort for their benefit. Happily, most on this board now feel more free to own their feelings and express them.

Europe has looser ways of dealing with these issues, but they don't expect radiation patients not to have issues when they're facing life threatening illness and painful embarrassing treatments.

A human with NO issues does not exist in any place on earth and never has.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 11:18AM by Cheryl.

Cheryl,

You misunderstand me. I'm not criticizing you in any way. I know there is no ideal world. I know fear and shame. I, myself am an extremely private person, requiring time alone and private space to function.

What I was commenting on, was that your examples imply shame for the way you look, or for what others might think of you. And, I think that is sad, because I wish there were an ideal world where you wouldn't be subjected to that. Where you (me and everybody) felt so safe, that we wouldn't feel shame or embarrassment for our bodies.

That does not mean that people wouldn't have the right to privacy any more, only that they wouldn't be ashamed or afraid.

I gave the example I did, because it the one place and group of people where I've been part of that world I wish existed everywhere.

People have issues. That's a fact and there's nothing wrong with it. Assuming they should be better as something or that society made them want privacy is like saying everyone should be an extroverted public speaker and those who are not have been damaged.

I faced death and worry about someone else being inconvenienced or feeling bad because of my personality is unacceptable . That's wrong minded as far as I'm concerned.

There is more concern about bodily functions in some societies but so what? That changes nothing. These individual differences are evident everywhere and society can only minimally change basic character.

I find it interesting that you are accusing me of blaming you. I'm not. I simply made an observation.

You said this: "
I faced death and worry about someone else being inconvenienced or feeling bad because of my personality is unacceptable . That's wrong minded as far as I'm concerned."

That is my point. That is exactly why I said what I did.

You also said this: "Shame on you." Let me answer:

No.

I have finally become strong enough, that I will never again feel shame simply because someone else doesn't like my observations and opinions.

I don't want privacy because I'm ashamed of my body. I just feel uncomfortable if someone is too close when I'm naked or such.

I think it's unnecessary to equate need of privacy to being ashamed.

I don't want to feel uncomfortable. It's - uncomfortable.

It doesn't matter what our body looks like, it is our own sense of comfort.

My ex is completely comfortable with being naked. He goes to nude beaches.

I don't want anyone seeing me naked even when I was young and HOT. (And being married to someone gay didn't help that feeling very much.) I wear long sleeves even in summer even when I was young and in perfect shape. Now I'm overweight and even when I wasn't, after I had twins, I have a sagging belly and stretch marks you wouldn't believe. I don't like wearing shorts and never have. I had a hard time wearing swimming suits and now I never do.

My son is very private. My daughter isn't. She used to wear bikinis before she went TBM on me and skinny dipped. My son wouldn't be caught dead skinny dipping and neither would I.

It is a personality trait and those of us who don't like to be "exposed" shouldn't have to be either. I've NEVER understood urinals. I used to clean for a hospital years and years ago, and it shocked me to see urinals. My son has always had issues with urinals and won't use the bathroom unless he is at home.

Maybe some of the rest of you are completely comfortable with exposing your bodies, but the rest of us aren't. I don't see the big deal about putting up walls for everyone in public restrooms, dressing rooms, etc.

Middle school/junior high was VERY, VERY difficult for me. Luckily for my son, when he went to middle school, they had some private showers. When I got to high school, we weren't forced to shower.

One of the first places I was forced to be fully naked in view of others was in the temple when I did baptisms for the dead. We've discussed it on here before.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 11:10AM by cl2.

And I didn't want to be forced to see other naked people when they were male prostate patients.

treat people as though they are just another body. That is how I felt having my twins and having a C-section. I do believe they tend to become too blind to the fact they are dealing with humans here and not the next item on the assembly line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2016 09:26AM by cl2.

As if humans should have no feelings or opinions. They should be robotic and not care about their privacy. And if they do care, their motives are attacked and they're called ugly names or society is blamed because it's assumed they are damaged goods.

Cheryl, I respect and admire you.

I would just like to point out that there's a big difference between, "This is how I feel, and I would like how I feel to be considered in public spaces," and "Everyone must do things in ways so that I am not uncomfortable."

The former is reasonable, and can be appreciated by almost everyone. The latter -- neither.

So refreshing as an exmo to not have to put up with 3-8 hours of mind numbing meetings on Sunday, and log on to RFM for some stimulating discussion. For some reason, the post reminds me of the colonoscopy lawsuit:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient-jury-orders-her-to-pay-500000/2015/06/23/cae05c00-18f3-11e5-ab92-c75ae6ab94b5_story.html

I too demand my privacy. I was bitten by a brown recluse spider on my right rear end (cheek). It required several outpatient surgeries. On the first debridgement, I was laying face down on the table bare ass and the doc said, "hey do you mind if a few resident view this procedure." Hesitantly I affirmed. In walked in four supermodels, apparently residents. Not my cup of tea. On the next 3 surgeries I demanded it be him and I only - man to man. I had a vasectomy last week, and I didn't have to ask for it to be man to man - it just was because they said most men request it anyway, so they do so as a matter of protocol.

Most people prefer bodily privacy - in my opinion.

As a Ca female, I believe it is unsafe to disrobe for any reason near strange men in a public place. (Because my observations have demonstrated some Ca males actually exhibit aggression, both physical aggression and verbal aggression; some males actually violate physical boundaries sexually with physical touch , pushing against, walking pinning behaviors.)

I do not know if ca males are trained to pin, push, physically advance backing females into walls, press shoulders across, or reach into our hair face with their hands because they are tall, or what.

But I do know I would die before disrobing publicly with strange men present in an open unguarded place (without armed security guards) because I have to utilize logic based on real observations not faith or idealism to make logical decisions for safety.... It is my right to avoid unsafe places, rape attempts, sexual predations intimidation, sexual bullying- which I have encountered and observed directly in California.

In a tiny rural place, along a road bordering cotton field and orchard, or across from grape vineyards facilities are small!
I worked for 13 years with a single toilet, locked deadbolting outer door - one person at a time staff shared male female utilized school site restroom... Perfectly fine, sequential is the essential concept. In my last building, males and females utilized both sexes individual locked one toilet restrooms....just based on lines, such bells - again sequential use. Individual's privacy and safety needs were met whatever ones sexual designation or dress or preference. staff included bi, straight, lesbian, gay, heterosexual crossvdresser, and one trans staff members.

visiting san francisco airport, dozens of stalls filled a single restroom. if it were unisex, I would want a femalefrend who is a martial art expert or my spouse who is a martal artist & state level atletic fighter escorting me.

no stranger,
no body has the right to make others unsafe, physically assaulted, sexually touched without consent and expect polite submission.

& that includes for my intersex family member, whomtravels with trans friends.

individual bathrooms, showering with dressing rooms all the way.

I have to wonder for those with a great need for privacy, which includes me:

Would we feel the same way if we belonged to tribes where everyone is always naked?

Seems we learn to hide our faults early on. Funny that we still allow our faces to be seen, even if they have defects.

Nor do I apologize for having boundaries.

Most of us were raised in an environment where the prevailing school of thought was to keep your goodies out of sight. Within that general consensus is a huge breadth of what constitutes personal privacy.

I've lived the bulk of my life accepting the varying degrees of other people's interpreting what constitutes their own personal privacy. The practicality of respecting others' boundaries gets a little sticky at times as we encounter each other in our journeys through life.

Funny though, for me, as I age - and admittedly possess a less than Adonis-like physique - I find myself accepting the thought that my junk is in no way unique or noteworthy, therefore is not due the efforts to hide them. I don't really give a crap who would happen to catch a shot at my stuff anymore. Out of respect for the societal proprieties, I continue to keep things under cover, lest I anger or embarass others, or cause undue attention to be directed at me.

I also don't care if I see other's naughty bits either, particularly if they are not on display as entertainment or titillation. I am not beyond being aroused by displays of nudity in an erotic setting, but if I come across nakedness in the pedestrian world of normal life, meh. I've seen parts, they are all remarkably similar in appearance. Each set of goodies are indeed different from others in many ways, but so what, IMO.

If people are protective of their privacy and want to protect their stuff from being seen, okay with me. I leave it to them to prevent any sightings...

You're an individual with a valid point of view.

That doesn't mean the rest of us need to look up to your example as our goal or feel shame because we have differing feelings.

It's like when I was insulted and harangued here daily for rebuffing Mormon intruders at my door. Many posters went on and on about how they welcomed missionaries and locals into their homes and showed them how nice exmos could be as they planted seeds. That's a valid perspective.

I pay for my home and I value my privacy. I don't want Mormon strangers bothering me in my house during my private time. I suffered extreme loss and trauma freeing myself from a cult and I have no interest in seeing Mormons at my door assuming they can bring me back. That's how it is.

Forced nudity and forced Mormon intrusions are unacceptable.

There is absolutely no reason why this society can't reasonably accommodate every group of people by starting to provide floor to ceiling stalls or rooms for toilets and by training healthcare workers and others to ask about and show some respect patient needs for comfort when possible.

Wouldn't the cost of that be hugely prohibitive? I mean, maybe not, but I would think that would require an enormous amount of space and money.

The trans issues are not about personal privacy--the issue of personal privacy is an entirely different matter. Bathrooms are already not private for anyone. People who want trans people to be able to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable with aren't 'against' privacy, they're against prejudice. Yes, it'd be nice if we all had private bathroooms, but as long as we don't trans people need their rights and safety like anyone else.

You are not the only person who deserves to be safe. Trans people do as well.

Plus, you talk as if women never stare at anyone's breasts or men never stare at other men's bodies. Some people are gay, some people are sizing you up to judge you, some people just don't have a lot of tact. Trans women get raped and murdered frequently just for going in the 'wrong' bathroom. Privacy is an entirely different matter. It would probably make things easier on everyone, but that's not what trans rights activists are advocating against. They actually advocate frequently FOR private bathrooms for all, so you should actually be aligned with them. Instead, you seem to be disagreeing with them when they're the only group that is actively fighting for exactly what you say you want. Single-stall bathrooms are usually the order of the day.

http://rainbowcenter.uconn.edu/bathrooms/

No, the cost would be manageable. It's a matter of priorities.
We've accomplished huge gains for the blind and wheelchair bound. We still have more to go, but the progress is great as I think back to how it was years ago.

There is no need to marginalize any group by taking their rights away. What we need to do is improve the situation to a more acceptable level for everyone.

This isn't about staring. This is about personal boundaries. In the schools where I taught, sex education for young children centered to a large extent around having a right to determine who could touch or see and individual. We taught children they could tell others rather than suffering uncomfortable nudity and touching. If someone have no chance to determine when they will be naked, they lose their personhood.

Forced nudity is one of the tactics of torture when prisoners are in custody in antiquated prison situations. Doing that to the whole population is a step backward for everyone including every minority.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2016 01:26PM by Cheryl.