I've been married to my TBM DW for three years now, and there are times I feel more ex-mo than nevermo; thus my presence here.

As some of you have noted in other threads, I set a problematic precedent by accompanying my DW to sacrament meetings and church events. I even sat through almost two years of investigator classes with my tongue firmly clenched in my teeth so as not to embarrass DW with the guffaws and gibes struggling to escape from my mouth. Our attendence at church was mercifully spotty because of DW's work schedule.

Last fall we ended up in a new ward because of redrawn boundaries, and DW was soon to start a new job that left her weekends free, so this was an opportunity for DW to dive back into the whole thing with renewed vigor.

First up, she was given a new calling as a primary teacher. I don't remember exactly how it was presented me, but I got the distinct impression from two different people, in addition to DW, that it was couple calling and that DW wouldn't be able to handle the class without my support. I could tell that DW really wanted to do this, so I asked what was expected of me. DW said that all I had to do was keep the kids corralled while she taught. OK, it's not like I had anything important to, though I would been happier reading a book in the foyer until she was ready to leave. The bishop wanted to set me apart, but I declined saying that I was only there to support DW in her calling.

It didn't take long before our roles were reversed, with me leading the class and DW corralling the kids. I balked, telling DW that I was really uncomfortable teaching these kids things that I knew wasn't true. So, she's back to leading the class, but she told me I didn't have to agree to help. Huh? What about the full-court press from the primary pres and the bishop? That's when she said they try to get couples when they can, but that husbands are usually busy with their own callings and priesthood meetings. WTF?

A month ago, DW was asked to prepare food for this weekend's YM retreat at a camp an hour and a half away from us. DW had eagerly accepted because she enjoys this kind of stuff. Once again, the implication by the person asking her was that this required a couple. DW asked if I wanted to do it, and I said no. DW seemed cool with it and said she could get help from a couple of the adults who would already be there anyway. With things coming down to the wire, and plans shifting at the last minute, DW did not coordinate with the help she thought she was going to have, and asked me last night to give up my otherwise free Friday evening and Saturday to help her with HER calling (or whatever this is). I mumbled a non-commital response, which she may or may not have heard from the other room, but I suspect I have been roped into yet another commitment from I church I don't even belong to.

I realize it's of my own doing and foolishly thought I could stay apart from the madness while in its midst, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept. I just want to flat-out refuse, but I'm afraid it's going to lead to another fight when we had just resolved the last fight about the church. Maybe I'm finally being punished for leaving the Catholics so long ago.

From what I have seen in these situations, the pressure will never stop. My bad advice is to go ahead and have a few fights because you are holding your ground and hope the issue gets settled.

I had an aunt who fell in love with a catholic and he madly with her. He took the discussions but just couldn't buy it. They finally married anyway and many years later after all the constant pressure he just finally gave in to make it all stop and to give her the temple marriage she wanted so badly.

It is a difficult situation. You have always been honest with your DW from the beginning. Don't ever change anything or it is the beginning of the end.

And actually, I don't know what I'm talking about. Just want to help anyway.

Sorry honey, but a voluntary commitment that you have made does not constitute a binding obligation on mine. If you are struggling with your calling my advice is that you step down from it, end of problem. If you're not willing to step down then the consequences of that commitment are yours, not mine. And I won't be letting them become mine. I love you dearly, but I do not love your Church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2016 10:42AM by pettigrew.

I have been in many PEC meetings where they talk about how to involve inactive/nonmember husbands or wives. It usually includes bbqing at ward activities, and helping in classes or other capacities. It will not stop if you keep giving in. I think you will need to lovingly tell her that you won't be roped into what you don't want to do.

You sir are a ward project, and the joint calling bullshit does not usually happen in primary. They are trying to pull you back in. Stand your ground and tell your wife you love her but you are going to do other things during church.

Agreed! Especially the part about you teaching the lesson in primary! That was an obvious attempt to teach and hook YOU my friend. You are a missionary project. Just tell your wife, sincerely, that in your eagerness to be a supportive new husband you accidently and unwittingly gave the false impression you are a possible Mormon in embryo. In the future you will be supporting her and not her faith because it is not yours. And you expect the same support from her in your right not to be involved in Mormonism, or any other religion. Then make the agreement on one or two Mormon activities each year you are willing to attend with her (such as Christmas party or New Year's Dance) but you will NOT be on the clean-up committee or prep committee, etc.

What's your plan when the kids start coming? Yikes!

I started suspecting that soon after we popped up on the local ward's radar three years ago.

The first two missionaries were great guys; low-key and laid-back. I enjoyed their company when they came over for dinner, and they didn't push too hard with the discussions. In turn, I didn't push back too hard out of respect to my wife. I was very open about what I was just discovering from my independent research into TSCC, and they took it in stride. We mostly talked about their lives before their mission, and what they were planning to do afterwards. Subsequent missionaries were more zealous.

One missionary was close to going home and he was one shy of the baptism goal he set for himself. He thought I was the Golden Goose because my wife was TBM and I was friendly with the missionaries and members. My gentle rebuffs were seen by him as a green light. I started to share everything I learned from my research. He bore his testimony and asked me to take Moroni's challenge. I told him I already had after reading the BoM and knew beyond a doubt that it was nothing but a 19th century construct. He said I should pray again, but with a sincere heart this time. I damn near threw him out of my home. Both DW and his companion recognized that the missionary had crossed a line with me that was never going to be uncrossed. His companion shuffled him out the door before things got worse.

There was a brief time after that when the missionaries (the one had already gone home and was out of the picture) wouldn't show up without our HT or a member of the bishopiric accompanying them. On more than one occassion, I would see the missionaries waiting several minutes in their car until the third member of their trio arrived.

The first time the rotating trio showed up, I told them that DW wasn't home and that they could come back later. Well, it turns out they were there for me. I was curious enough to invite them in. They probed me with questions about the obstacles to my believing, and the adult was there to counter everything and to recommend church-approved reading material that addressed my concerns. I accepted further visits because I enjoyed sharing my research (DW got physically ill whenever I tried sharing it with her) and was curious how the HT or bishopiric would spin it.

I finally tired of the cat-and-mouse game and repeated for the umpteenth time, though with more emphasis, that I have no interest whatsoever of ever joining because everything about Joseph Smith and his "translations" were a fraud. I also assured them that DW was still TBM, that I respected her enough to accept her belief, and that I expected the same respect for my non-belief. That was a over a year ago, and the only time the missionaries come over now is when DW invites them for dinner. They also come alone.

I understand the abbreviations most on the board use, but for just a moment I thought "HT?" "Hostage Taker?" I figured right after that it was home teacher. :)

My number one piece of advice to non- or ex-Mormons with a Mormon spouse:

Don't agree to anything that will set a precedent, just to keep things quiet for the moment.

Yeah, I was afraid that would be the sum of the advice I would get. It's what I needed to hear, just not what I wanted to hear. :)

I love my wife and thought I was being supportive by attending church and events with her. Religion bores me, so what did I care what DW believed so long as nobody was forcing Kool-Aid down my throat? Who knew that it would take Mormonism to light a fire under my cool religious indifference?

I see that I need to reestablish my non-member status...the sooner the better, because it will only be harder to do so further down the line. It's just a matter of how now. (Yes, I see what I did there, but don't expect a "brown cow" reference from me.)

I get where you are coming from. I think you need to avoid being sucked into any more callings. If it's a couple's calling, then your wife should consider herself ineligible to serve in it. Or they could easily ask another woman in the ward to be her partner. It doesn't fall to you, just because you are married to her.

However, in this case, I think it's good to step up to the plate and help her out. I've been in multiple situations where I have an event planned (work related), and things took more time than I thought. My husband's help at the last minute was very much appreciated. He did let me know that he didn't enjoy my stressout fest, and to plan better. Perhaps your wife should have planned and coordinated better. Or maybe someone else dropped the ball (and that definitely happens in planning church activities). But I think spouses should be there to support each other.

Over the years, I've gotten better at figuring out what needs to be done to prepare for events (this is work-related, not church related). But it takes practice and planning.

Maybe you could meet her in the middle on this. Help her get the food ready for the event and get it in the car. But you don't need to attend to help serve or anything. There will be other leaders there who can do that. Help her get the stuff together, but stay home and have a quiet weekend.

BTW, I HIGHLY doubt that a couple is required for a Young Women's event. Usually they just have a priesthood representative go to 'preside' (be the honored guest, because women are perfectly capable of running their own events). I have NEVER seen a man help with the food at a women's event in the church. EVER.

And be sure she gets reimbursed for any of her own money she spends. As far as other people bailing on promised dishes, etc, she doesn't have to do it all herself. Have her tell the ward she'll purchase missing items at Costco or something, and they can pay for it.

Yea, the pressure will never stop. But let me point out something no one else has yet: not only is this effort to bring you in deliberate and calculated, but your wife is likely in on it. If not explicitly, then implicitly, or in spirit.

Mormonism isn't like traditional Christianity, wherein they will regret your inactivity but in general leave you alone (like many churches do with "errant" husbands). No, if she's an all-in TBM, then she needs you to be in too. She can't have a temple marriage without you. She can't go to the "celestial kingdom" without you, unless she's otherwise "sealed" to another man, parents, etc, and in "this life" those other arrangements are lessor, and she'll be embarrassed (as long as she's reeling you in, and there's still hope for you, the it's all "ok" (for the time being).

Also, there may be dire consequences. Many TBMs reject their spouse when their spouse rejects Mormoism. Many manage to negotiate a balance, but many do not. Again, if your wife is an all-in TBM, then she's being strongly encouraged--and aided and abetted--to "bring you in," and if you refuse, she'll be encouraged to jettison you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2016 01:24PM by nomonomo.

Unfortunately you have set bad precedent by attending church with her. The years that you've gone have gotten her's and everyone the rest of the wards hopes up. You are probably a hot topic in the PEC meetings on how to get you baptized.

You need to have a sit down discussion with your wife and let her know again on no uncertain terms that you don't believe it, never will believe it, and that it is demonstratively false. You have attended for one reason only, you love her and want her to be happy. You don't have an issue with her being Mormon but you will not be one.

Sometimes you need to lie a little to keep a marriage working. "No honey, those jeans don't make you look fat" {its that box of donuts you ate last night that are doing that}. At other times you need to break out and be honest.

This is one of those times.

Just indicate that rather than taking a calling you would attend the Catholic church.

Sounds like you are being used and manipulated. So not cool in any relationship or situation. Establish boundaries. Call her and them on it. It's dishonest and sneaky what they are doing. You don't deserve this kind of treatment.

If there's one thing that rises to the top in Mormon pressure cooker is the callings.

They'll suck everything out of you til there's nothing left to give, if you let em.

I learned that as a LDS. The most important thing I learned to do to safeguard my mental health (and physical health,) was to just say NO. When they call you to do something, anything. If it's something you aren't comfortable with doing, don't have the time for, patience for, whatever. And you who aren't even a member. Just say no!

Establishing boundaries is so apropos. You are being manipulated by your wife and the church into doing its bidding. Maybe it's her way of trying to get you to come around to her side, see things her way, and hallelujah, make a convert out of ya!

Well, that's up to you if it's worth it to save your sanity and your marriage as blueorchid suggested.

But it would wear on my nerves, as a former Mormon and woman. They don't have boundaries at that church. They just use people up, literally.

When I was active I'd spend half my Sundays at services, and the rest of the day recovering from services. Sometimes I'd need to take Mondays off to recuperate from Sabbath - that was when I had callings and small children. The church doesn't care - it's priorities are not your priorities - don't let them fool you into believing otherwise.

It will eat you up alive if you let it. Don't you let it!

You could tell your wife that you have been going to church with her and doing these other things because you thought that you should support your wife and that would improve the relationship. However, it has become clear to you that your efforts to be supportive of her Mormonism have not in fact improved your relationship. On the contrary, it has created added unwanted stress on the relationship.

So, from now on you will support her Mormonism from afar. You have no objection to her going to church or church related events, but that you will not be participating in them.

Mormons will often view your free time as unimportant. You don't have church obligations, so they (including your wife) can impose on your time whenever they choose. You need to reclaim your own free time and quit giving it away to the Mormon Church.

Hell, take up golf on Sunday morning. Join a softball league. Take hikes. Do whatever you want. But choose something, and do it. If she would like to join you, she is welcome, but she doesn't have to. But you also don't have to cave in to her all the time.

We are only hearing about the Mormon aspects, but it seems that you are caving into what she wants to do again and again. Just how reciprocal is the respect in this relationship?

lessons in primary. You are not a member, but your wife had you teaching the lessons. She is in on it.

My TBM daughter was forever having me do things for her. When I finally broke down recently and went to a previous bishop for help with my own daughter, while I was sitting there talking to him, not only did his daughter invite me to a "neighborhood" party, but a couple stopped by the house to invite ME to the party. I work that night, so I had a good excuse, but I didn't tell them right then. The couple used to be my HT years ago and they just returned from a couple's mission. The husband had friended me on fb and I had kindly accepted and liked some of his posts that were NOT mormon related. They saw it as an opportunity.

My daughter gave a talk about me in SM and next thing I know, half the women in the R.S. are coming by to tell me what a wonderful person I am.

It never ends. I've been inactive/resigned for over 20 years now.

Thing is, I get no credit whatsoever for the help I've given my daughter over the years. She sees me as NOT supporting her. Hell, I bought her nice set of scriptures (something I never had). But, no, I'm the bad guy.

Oh, my nonmo boyfriend's mother always attended church at whatever church was within walking distance. They moved to Mesa, AZ, and the LDS church was the closest to their house. Her husband attended with her so that she wouldn't have to go alone. Three of their daughters were baptized. Two separate men decided they were going to convert this man. They tried for years. They were competing with each other on who could get the job done. One finally got so fed up he stood up in fast and testimony meeting and called my boyfriend's father out for having too much pride and not humbling himself to be baptized. The family never returned.

Mormons haven't a clue how to treat people. It is all about manipulation. They are manipulating you--and your wife is in on it.

I'm sorry, but I must add my two cents to the opinions of everyone else. My Dad was a non-member like you, and he always wanted to support my Mom in her religion. For her, it was Mormonism. His first wife was a Seventh-day Adventist. He went to church with each of them when he was married to them, but he had no interest in joining either church.

As a child and teen, I observed the ward members. I hated the strategizing, the teasing, and so did he. They would talk about how much they wanted him to join the church, to the point that it became very embarrassing. He was a very friendly man, but that wasn't enough for them. They thought he wouldn't be "good enough" until he was baptized! They'd kid him about it. It must've been very hard for him. But he told me that he wanted his kids to grow up with religious training like Sunday School, and he wanted Mom to be happy. *I learned so much from him about standing up for what you believe, loving your partner, and doing only what you feel is the right thing for YOU.* She loved him so much for his respectful approach.

If someone is encouraged to join the church, shouldn't it be their family, rather than a bunch of outsiders, who does it? My mom knew my dad wasn't going to join (although she hoped). She tried to convey that message to friends. The smart friends eased off and just loved him for who he was. Good for them.

But you know, dude? Ya gotta be brave and tell your family the TRUTH. And tell them to tell the others "thanks, but YOU'RE NOT HELPING!"

Best of luck. I feel for you.

wondercat



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2016 09:49PM by wondercat.

Anyone who shows up at a Mormon church or who smiles and nods at a missionary is assumed to be on the path to baptism.

It's a good idea to hang back and not be enthusiastic about any church activity or event because Mormons assume that means interest in converting. They take it as a sign that the person wants them to press forward with their agenda of conversion.

Couple callings are very rare. That sounds like a ploy to force involvement. It's a way Mormons use to get family members committed to their church programs. People who feel needed tend to want to continue to contribute time and money.

Getting someone to give of their time is a powerful tool that stalkers and scammers use to make friends for their cause.

Helping is a wonderful thing for family members, but it's very important to make clear what it means and doesn't mean.

"Honey, I want to help you because I love you. Helping in no way means I am interested in doing more than this one thing within your organization. I like spending time with you, but that doesn't mean I embrace all of the goals and beliefs of your church."

You may also try the very direct approach too, if you have that kind of relationship.

"Sweetheart, I don't believe in your church. I don't believe in it's teachings. I know that you do, and I fully support your choice to believe in what you want. But if I am on some sort "activation project" or whatever, please, it really is a waste of time on your part, and may simply cause problems. I know you have this calling, and I am ok by that, but please don't look to me to help you fulfill it. It's your thing, not mine"

Or something like that, IF you have that kind of relationship

It's neither here nor there whether this situation is your own doing or not. I have an idea I'd like you to consider.

Why don't you take their missionary attempt and just turn it to a use that actually benefits humanity?

Of course you can't teach a message you don't believe. It goes without saying that you must ABOVE ALL maintain your own integrity. You have the opportunity to show children who may never ever see an exmo or former mo, or jackmo, or whatever you call yourself at any point in time. What are you showing them? Simply that you are nice, you like kids, you are a "good" person WITHOUT a testimony.

You are a walking advertisement for exmormonism just by existing and not being a degenerate or in jail.

You can also answer questions honestly, esp with teens. So that you All you have to do is make sure the children know that you don't believe and you are there just to help your wife out. You will use your own age-appropriate words -- "some good people do not have testimonies, did you know that?" What do you think happens to them? Do you think God loves those people too?


Best of luck


Kathleen

Two thumbs up.

I would help her out with the food for this weekend. After the event was over, I would sit her down, tell her how much I love her, but that I will never be a mormon, that I find mormon teachings offensive (eternal polygamy, really!), and that from now on in, I'm not getting involved in anything mormon related.

Well, regardless of how this came about or whether there is a conspiracy to lure me into the fold, my wife is genuinely stressed out about the food plans for this weekend. I'm a little surprised because she can practically do this in her sleep, but I can't deny her obvious signs of distress.

So, I am helping her this weekend and tabling our talk about reasserting my non-member status until after the work is done. The last thing she needs going into the weekend is for me to add to her stress.

However, I do like Kathleen's suggestion that I use this weekend as an opportunity to be a walking advertisement for non/ex-mormonism. I don't need to be pushing it on anybody, but why not engage in an honest conversation should the opportunity present itself. It might be fun; and if the leaders don't like it, they should think twice about trying to pull me into TSCC.

Oh, the things you could have taught those kids! ;-)

Although I advised you to stop giving in, I appreciate your kindness in helping her out when she seems to obviously need it.

Baldy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... my
> wife is genuinely stressed out about the food
> plans for this weekend. I'm a little surprised
> because she can practically do this in her sleep,
> but I can't deny her obvious signs of distress. ...

This hardly merits comment.

"Obvious signs of distress" over something "she can practically do ... In her sleep" ?

You are a pushover, my friend. You might as well sign on now, because there is always "work" that needs doing.

At least if you're a member you might get a decent calling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2016 03:52PM by nomonomo.

I'm just shaking my head at the idea that, even as a non-member, I am plotting my escape from TSCC.

Okay. That was funny. Great laugh at your expense I guess. Thank you.

The Mormon's have a saying which I used to LOOOOVE. "Be in the world but not OF the world." This was a clever way of saying that Mormons were superior and traveled on higher ground as God's chosen. Arrogance at its finest.

I guess you need to be "in the church but not OF the church," haha.

Just goes to show you how really pernicious the Mormon church is. You have a tricky road to navigate. I still love Anagrammy's advice. If you are going to participate, just make sure everyone knows how you really feel. You can do a lot of good for the youth. They need to know that those who are "OF the world" are some of the most wonderful people IN the world. Usually because they have no agenda to force on everyone else.

Imagine this:

Every time your wife sees you working with the children, smiling, and showing you care, she is thinking, "bloody hell, he doesn't even believe. He's under the control of Satan and look at that! He doesn't even believe he has to fulfill his vows, honor his covenants and he's here anyway. Because of me... because he loves me. I'll bet few of those Relief Society bitches have that kind of love at home.

Not bad, my friend, not bad at all for the struggling marriage..


Kathleen

PS. Thanks for the kind words, folks.

"I'm just shaking my head at the idea that, even as a non-member, I am plotting my escape from TSCC"

Ha, I've been plotting my escape from Utah for a number of years to escape the pervasive and oppressive LDS culture. So, you're not the only one!!

Baldy, supporting your wife and her church activities doesn't mean doing everything that she does. It means not complaining when she goes off for three hours on Sunday. It means realizing that her callings will be taking up some of her time, NOT doing them for her.

Quit going to Primary with her. Do not feel obliged to go with her to camp or anyplace else. Let her prepare her own treats and activities. Talk to her about saying, "No" to excessive demands. I think it's sweet that you sit in Sacrament Meeting with her, but I wouldn't do anything else beyond that or the occasional church supper or dance. When she is in primary go sit in the hall and web surf or play a game on your device. Or take yourself out for breakfast or a coffee. Meet her at the end of the church block.

Have you ever heard the expression, "helicopter parent?" You are being a helicopter husband. Let your wife have her own space. She is a grownup, she will be okay. I can tell you that one of my dad's biggest regrets in life is that he did *way* too much for my mom and sheltered her too much. It left her ill prepared to take over the reins of the family when he was gravely ill and after his death.

Stress can be instructive. All lives have stress. It teaches you how to cope with difficult situations. Ultimately, dealing with stressful situations builds confidence. Sure, *sometimes* loved ones who are stressed out about something could use some help. The key word is "sometimes.* It is not your job to remove all stress from your wife's life!

It's good for a couple to do some things separately. It will keep your marriage fresh and interesting. Let your wife have church. Go find your own hobby.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2016 03:29PM by summer.