I am an almost sixty year old TBM, born in the church. I would like to share my experience with my Bishop at tithing settlement two weeks ago.

I went into the meeting expressing my concerns with the recent Mormon essays and wanted to know if he had read them. At first he said he had read part of one, but wasn't really interested in reading any more. I further questioned him about what he read. I found out he only knew about the Book of Abraham translation essay.

I expressed my concerns regarding how JS could translate the scrolls and not have a clue as to what was really on them. I further questioned him on polygamy and how many wives JS had when he claimed he had only one. I asked him if this was a lie by anyone's standards. I asked him where liars go after this life. He said that they go to Hell. I told him that I guessed JS is going to Hell!

After further discussion I was told that I should go join another church. I was shocked and asked him if that was his counsel. He told me two more times to go find the real church if I wasn't happy. I answered that maybe I should follow his counsel, and expressed that I was surprised by his unwillingness to even really discuss my questions and concerns. I suggested that we might reason together as Isaiah talked about in the scriptures. He just repeated that he didn't want to hear about any of this.

He finally told me that I should follow Moroni 10:3,4 to find out if the church was true. I told him I had prayed about it, but he insisted that I hadn't prayed sincerely with real intent. I replied that I had done that and would try it again.

I further informed him that I would not stop expressing my concerns and feelings out loud when I had them, and that he would have to take disciplinary action against me if he didn't like it. I told him I was the respecter of no one in the church, and that my loyalty was only to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, because I feel that they are the only ones who don't twist the truth, lie or deny the truth.

I'm waiting to see what will happen from here. So far, just love bombing.

"Hey, I gots ta know..."

Did you pay a full tithe?

If you did, I bet he puts up with your doubts...

Nope. No more. I told him I'm giving my money to a Catholic food bank, where I know it will do some good.

Go, YOU!

Finally doing the Lord's work

AWesome you are giving it to the poor and not the mall :)

...to support all those lies!

Why would there be a need for a disciplinary action against you if you are merely questioning essays published by the church? I would like to know what is the proper forum to ask? Sunday school, priesthood, Relief Society, bishop interview???

Because I told him JS belongs in hell, and I was questioning his leadership.

He didn't want to hear about any questions in any forum.

I don't think that the morg has a proper forum to address these issues. They're going to have address them sooner or later

If they did it would be public knowledge on this website!

What a lame bishop. How in the world are bishops and stake presidents going to successfully deal with questioning members if this is their response? The church is so hollow.

Around here, in Arizona, people don't seem to want to know anything about the essays.

I'm not sure it is possible to be a true believing member of the church without a testimony of Joseph Smith.

Work on dumping that loyalty to God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost...be loyal to yourself and kind/helping to others instead...and you will find REAL happiness and fulfillment.

I'm just starting to see things the way they really are

to read the essays. They obviously are CONCERNED that they will bother them. The Mormons in Utah don't want to know anything about them either, especially my TBM daughter.

I think bishops should be required to read them.

I despise Moroni 10:3-5.

Circular thinking.

Pray until you get the right answer. If you don't get the right answer, get yourself right then repeat until you get the right answer. For how long, until you get the right answer.

This is when you fire the bishop, you can even respectfully tell him to go to Hell. Sounds like that is where Joseph Smith is anyways. When you follow mindlessly, you end up in Hell I guess.

Is it possible he told you to find another Church because he does not view you as an asset for the Church. I can't imagine him saying the same thing to a David Archuleta or a beautiful, fertile 22 year-old young woman.

In the past I've been a full tithe payer. He's never liked me much. I was called as his home teacher twice, and both times he was mysteriously removed from my home teaching assignment.

Would it have made a difference if the Bishop had been more thoughtful? Also, do you have family support if you do decide to resign/go inactive?

It would have been nice to be able to have a discussion. I have plenty of support. My wife is nevermo and would be really happy to not see garments any more.

Hi tobeornottobe, BYU Boner here. I joined Mormonism when I was 18 at the suggestion of a college professor. I was a young man with very low self-esteem and dealing with alcohol abuse in my family.

As my name suggests, I have strong connections with BYU. As a young convert, I was never told much about some of the "difficult" things in the church. For example, what I knew of the temple was that folks got married there and I could have my dead relatives baptized for the dead. There was no mention of garments, I found out about those 10 minutes before my baptism in the men's locker room at the stake center. I tried to get a peek, but found it bizarre to look at other men's underwear.

At the Y, dating was impossible because every woman dreamed of marrying a Returned Missionary. After about the third date, the dreaded, "we can only be good friends..." made it appearance.

During the mandatory religion classes, I began to hear some things about LDS doctrines that were strange—multiple gods, Egyptian book of the dead, but hey, the church was true! No worries, we had a prophet. None of the details mattered much.

To reinforce my poor self-esteem, the Morg forgot an important worthiness component during my investigation, that masturbation was a major sin and that it lead to homosexuality. Imagine, being in a bishop's interview at the Y to be asked a question about the big M and being stupid enough to say, Yeah, I do it! I was given Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness to read.

Flash forward several years, I had managed to go inactive and get reactivated by a girl friend. I ended up in the bishopric of a singles' ward. My bishop told me it was time to go to the temple for my endowments. (Yes, I lied about M...I learned to say what the bishop wanted). So, off I went.

It was in the old slash and gash days. I didn't have a clue what went on in the temple. The washings and anointings didn't bother me the way they bothered others on the board. However, I was shocked when I was given a new name that was to be kept SECRET. Hey, what the fuck! SECRET, I was always told the temple was sacred. Well, after the shell-shock of the endowment, I finally figured out why things needed to be kept secret.

Not too long afterwards, I met and married my wife in the SL Temple (still slash and gash). Things were fine for a couple of months when Bro. Mark Hoffman got it in his mind to blow people up to cover up his forgeries. My TBM wife said to me, "Why didn't the prophet see this coming?" Why, indeed.

I began to investigate more about Mormon claims including polygamy, the temple, Book of Abraham...long before the internet. I approached my bishop with my questions and he told me to go to the temple as it was a place of revelation.

Well, I did. There was a young man going through the first time and he was scared shitless. The slashings got to him. As no one was really helping him, I whispered that he'd be okay, someone would tell him what to say. He said, "I have to say all that?!?"

I watched him enter the Celestial Room and saw the look of shock on his face dissolve as he was surrounded with family congratulating him. I knew that Mormonism was a cult.

I told my TBM on the way home that I didn't believe in Mormonism any more. That set off WWIII. She said the marriage would be over. Actually, we've been married for more than 30 years, but I'd be lying if I didn't tell you the trauma and hurt Mormonism has caused me.

So, tobeornottobe, there are lots of folks on this board who have had out turn discovering what we once believed was pure bullshit. You didn't mention if you are married or have a family. My advice, others may disagree, is to take things very slow with your family if they're still TBM.

My TBM wife and i went different directions. As I moved away from Mormonism, she went deeper into it. Some will say, just hand her the church essays or CES letter, but that does no good. Thomas Monson could come out and say the church was a hoax and he wasn't a prophet and my wife would still believe in it.

Best wishes, remember, the church and its leaders only have power over you, if you give it to them. Don't put yourself at their mercy or agree to meet with them on their turf. Best wishes, The Boner.

I appreciate your story and your advice. I always thought the Bishop should be able to counsel members with questions in a positive way. My wife is nevermo and letting me make my decision. That part is easy. I'm still studying a lot to find the truth on my own (unlike Bishop who doesn't want to learn anything).

This is a deep well of information. People will be happy to point you to source material.

"My TBM wife and i went different directions. As I moved away from Mormonism, she went deeper into it. Some will say, just hand her the church essays or CES letter, but that does no good."

Funny, my wife is kind of doing the same thing. She had never been that hardcore TBM, but since I've been questioning, she has become more religious...guess she is trying to compensate and keep the balance.

I do think she trusts what I tell her (things like the BOA issues), but I think she is worried about maintaining the whole eternal marriage thing.

In the bishop's defense, what is he supposed to do? I mean, if you start looking at real facts, religion wouldn't exist.

The definition of faith is choosing to believe, which means you have to ignore reality if it conflicts with your beliefs.

And as my perspective broadens, I realize that we all deny reality to some extent. How many of us get mad when someone tells us how we really look or act? Or we overlook shady parts of the businesses we're in. Or we refuse to listen to those who question our political beliefs, or a host of other beliefs.

I have recently concluded that few of us could handle life if we were completely aware of reality. Almost have to keep some fantasies alive to stay motivated.

But you see, Mormonism demands cold hard cash in the here and now for some nebulous Salvation in the hereafter.
It also demands everything else you have, including your life if necessary.

What is a bishop supposed to do?
For openers, he could refuse to be the money collector for an obvious fraud.

By now, local leaders would have to be daft not to realize that there is a constant shortage of funds on the ward levels while SLC sucks up every penny to fund their pet projects.None of which benefit the tithe paying members.

I suggest you visit this web site and others and decide for yourself. For me, I hated being lied to by god's church. Why would God need to lie? Joseph Smith did not read gold plates for the Book of Mormon. If reading a rock in a hat was good enough for God, why did the church change it?

themaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... For me, I hated being lied to by god's church. Why would God need to lie?

Precisely! God would not lie. Only Satan and Satan's servants need to lie (according to scripture).

See my summary, with the scriptural references, both biblical and LDS:
http://packham.n4m.org/satan.htm

that's great you have to guts to talk to a Mormon bishop. I know I don't. the only times I have talked to a Mormon bishop was when I was ages 12-18. I didn't want to talk to them, but they wanted to know if I masturbate. They were only interested in sex. I'm a 39 year virgin female exmo, now Christian. I've never even had a boyfriend. Being an aspberger's person, my BS radar went off early in life. It so wonderful to be smart. God bless you.

Doesn't look like the bishop will be helpful or supportive. I'd write him off if I were you.

Bishops who are skilled should be willing to talk about any subject a parishioner wishes to discuss. But of course there is no training or credentials for mormon ministers.

It reminds me of the temple when people use to say "oh you can't talk about the temple outside the temple." But of course you can't talk inside the temple either? No answer. Big problem.

The church has told the bishops to send members to the essays when they have questions.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpig04xcmazhe5n/MemoFromChurchHQ.pdf?dl=0

So you have questions about the essays and the bishop hasn't even read them himself. Nice.

And you can't write to the general authorities with your questions because "By reason of their callings, local leaders are entitled to the spirit of discernment and inspiration to enable them to counsel members within their jurisdiction."
http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/60087/From-the-First-Presidency.html

Oh yah, the MORmON style taunt. "Go to a different church"
"Cut off contact with us" AS IF it just is not possible to live with out MORmONISM. My MORmON male parent used to throw those out to me all the time. THen I started taking him up on his taunts. Cutting off contact with the cankered MORmON POS was the best thing I ever did.

Typical Mormon response - "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts".

How could this clown passing himself off as a spiritual leader respond to honest member concerns regarding the essays if he hasn't even taken the time to read them much less comprehend their import?

Truly, TSSC is "dumbing down" more and more every day! How can any thinking person put up with such bulls**t?

You are right about the Bishop not wanting to know the truth about Mormonism. I also think you scare him because of your honesty and wanting to know the truth. Since he didn't want you as his home teacher, I think it runs deeper (for some reason) General Personality conflict? May be. Probably your presence stirs up some major insecurity. His problem. Not yours. JMHO

You are dong amazingly well in all this. Glad to know they will be missing your tithing. Going public and sharing your story is a great benefit for yourself and everyone who hears it. Hang in there and keep us posted.

So tobeornottobe, your bell has been rung. No going back now.

Welcome to the reality of the churches underbelly.

You asked the questions that should not be asked.

Just like many of us you were told to read the BOM and pray more or Keep your mouth shut and or go find another church.

That's what Jesus would do right?

Logic, reason, facts and the courage to read and determine actual truth vs the parroting of testimony will sustain that ringing in your ears for a very long time.

I was in forty years until my bell rang.

Welcome.

It is amazing what good you can do in the world when you quit paying tithing and give to those in need.

He's shirking his priesthood responsibilities if he does not make an effort to answer your questions. The church has counselled its members that they should no longer write to the general authorities regarding doctrinal/historical questions and that they should instead go to their local priesthood authority (bishop/stake president). If the local priesthood authority cannot answer the question, then they are to go up the chain of command for the answer. Those essays were specifically written for bishops and stake presidents to help answer members'questions.

Man your bishop sucks. I'd report him to his stake president.

"just pray" man that's the only answer they give these days

No, no, he's not shirking his responsibility. Obviously he gave the man answers...I don't know, shut up, go away, pray harder...he's totally justified and has done his due diligence (from his perspective).

Bish: "tobeornottobe, we love you and want you to be part of the Church."

You: "I won't be paying any more tithing."

Bish: "Why don't you go find another church."

that's pretty much exactly how it went

I find this answer your bishop gave as the standard answer with many TBMs regarding the OFFICIAL church essays - "I read a bit/none, and don't want to read any more". IOW, they want to bury their heads in the sand. They don't want answers.

This very thing is causing some friction for me at home right now. I am normally pretty controlled, but this makes me want to scream.

I also understand why some people here figure they have no way out other than to take their own lives - because for those of us with family still trapped, there is no escaping the church. To those people who are struggling at that level, I say, don't give the bastards the satisfaction. They will see it as a vindication of their teachings. Also, the best revenge is a life well-lived. Hang tough.