I've never understood this. To me it is almost laughable (not quite) (and it probably makes me an asshole) the whole "If God...then why is there...?"

God and gods and demigods have never been the nicest beings in The Universe. Their purposes have not been to be nice. If I really think about it God can be seen as one of the worst things to happen to humanity. Given that you have a jealous and incomprehensible being above human beings actually isn't a good thing. It lends itself to making humans suffer. Because if you aren't a good person God has to fulfill the demand (his own) of justice.

It actually sounds kinda whiny to me that God for many people is like this superhero who is loving, kind, benevolent, yadda, yadda, yadda. He sounds like a boy scout on steroids who can do magic to bless people. But God, gods, and almost gods never have been historically like this. A lot of pagan gods have attributes closer to demons and devils than some kind of super kind heavenly father.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2014 12:21PM by Elder Berry.

I never believed that God was benevolent. I was raised with fear and guilt. If there is a god, I hate it.

If there is, then you are more justified to fear and hate it than to love it.

I think it all started long ago when one of the "prophets" told another prophet who was hard of hearing that God Hyper Ventilates a lot. This due to being a little in over his head and so He gets OmniCranky.

Just like religion, it came from men, men who wanted to be in control. They tell the masses that they are doing everyone a favor by speaking for god, and of course, everyone will be better off if they do what god (they) wants, because "god" is benevolent and has everyone's best interest in mind........ when He is not Hell bent on making everyone intolerably miserable, that is.

Well, the idea that "god" punished us for not obeying it, and rewarded us for kissing its ass, all in this life, wasn't working out too well. While those ideas sort of worked for a while in early Hebrew and dozens of other religions, people started to notice that the matrix had glitches. Nasty people who ignored the "god" of the local culture thrived and got rich and had great lives, and the disgustingly faithful and obedient were just as likely to be poor and sick as anyone else. Heck, the whole reason the Hebrews were in such disarray around the time the magic Jesus stories got made up was because their promised "messiah" was a no-show, the invading, gentile, pagan Romans were thriving, and they were not being rescued despite their desperate pleas to Yahweh.

So religious peddlers had to change their tune; never mind all that "reward and punishment in this life" stuff we used to sell, never mind all the stuff you had to burn on altars to assuage your "sin" (and feed the priestly class) -- as it turns out, "god" doesn't actually reward you or punish you until AFTER you die! Reward of eternal life in heaven, or eternal punishment in hell, all dispensed after death and judgment, not now for crying out loud!

How convenient that, of course, this avoids testability and falsification. Haha, the new peddlers cried, you can't prove us wrong, because it all happens after you die!

And to top it off, that idea of "god" as angry, jealous, vengeful, ordering genocide and murder and such, as oh so immature. No, no, that was just men making things up or misunderstanding "god." "God" is really, of course, "all good." That way we can use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy to excuse any bad acts our religion commands or endorses -- if they're bad, they're from men (or men under the imaginary Satan's influence), not from "god."

It was a good plan. It worked. For a while.
However, observed reality began to rear its ugly head again...

Great summary. I think people have to think God is all good to be able to do some of the things they do in being obedient to religious leaders. But what are Mormons looking for from this omni-benevolent God? I guess for President Ezra Taft Benson it is power. This is what a benevolent God is all about - given power in exchange for obedience? Is that a "good" God??

"“When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest,” said President Ezra Taft Benson, “in that moment God will endow us with power”"
http://www.thereturnedmissionary.com/obedience-a-lifelong-quest/

I like this man's comments from a letter he sent to his family in talking about his thoughts on God. I also don’t know what to think of God. But I don't think God is hyper benevolent.

"Please note that I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that I am right and everyone else is wrong in this matter. I am only saying that I can simply no longer try to believe or teach others what is obviously unsupportable by common sense. I don’t know what to think of God. Maybe this is atheism. maybe it is agnostic. Maybe it is just being myself for a change and saying that it simply doesn’t make sense to me.

As of January 2, 2009, I resigned from the LDS church. I have felt not only good since then about this decision, but I feel that a weight has been lifted from me that bound me to lie and misrepresent my thoughts in hopes that others knew more about such things than I did."
http://www.skepticalthayne.com/?p=3795

I remember trying to figure out the discrepency between the words of New Testament Jesus and the words of D&C Jesus. As it turns out, D&C Jesus is really Joseph and Sidney being bossy.

The D&C was like an old fashioned Facebook where they un-friended each other all the time.

Where the Lord is always saying "I trod the wine press alone and nobody liked me, so I'm gonna come back soon and burn the whole world" sounds so much like the Old Testament God of retribution and not at all like the Jesus proclaimed in the New Testament.

It's almost as if the OT God came to earth in the form of a human Jesus, quickly discovered what he had been doing wrong for all those centuries, and decided to fix it.

The hyperbenevolent gods of today are probably the result of Priests discovering that they could get better results by appealing to men's greed and desire for earthly blessings, than by threatening people with never fulfilled threats of everlasting woe in this life. Wicked men seem to prosper despite their corruption, so to make it worthwhile for the good guy persist in the straight and narrow, he is told that riches and prosperity await him too, if he'll just follow the priest's directions.

I suspect for some people it is more about saying nicey-nice things to try and keep in God's good graces.

They keep praising, thanking, and telling God how great He is. It's obvious God has some not-so-nice moments but they don't talk about that. Give God the credit, never the blame.

I think they are sort of scared of God so they keep kissing up to Him no matter what happens.

It's like they don't think God is smart enough to notice the constant buttering up and graveling.


It's kind of like my boss. I'm not exactly going to point out anything bad that he does. He's got ears all over the place at work and power over me.

I was always disturbed with the term ' saving ' me . Versus what ? Discarding me ? For what ? Some vague performance test that no one understands or has a snowball's chance in hell of ever passing . I fear we may be insignificant insects to a being that we have no recourse with . Be afraid ... very afraid .

You just don't get it, scripturally he's not just 'hyper benevolent' he is omni-benevolent, but, not just that. He is also omniscient, omnipotent, and (not according to tscc) omnipresent. But wait, if he's all these things, then how is it possible that he could allow evil and reject his own children?.... Because he's also nonexistant



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2014 10:28AM by secularhumanguy.

either that or he only exists 'beyond time and space' and therefore the rules don't apply to him, or some other apologetic nonsense like that

secularhumanguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You just don't get it, scripturally he's not just
> 'hyper benevolent' he is omni-benevolent, but, not
> just that. He is also omniscient, omnipotent, and
> (not according to tscc) omnipresent.

So, can you point me to a scripture for omni-benevolence of God? I'm very interested. The know-it-all, all powerful, and everywhere I think I'm aware of those scriptures but if you want to throw them at me for good measure I would like that as well.

omnibenevolence:
Psalm 145:17, James 1:17, Isaiah 45:7

omnipresence (just in spite of the church)
jeremiah 23:24, Proverbs 15:3, Psalm 139:7-10

omniscience
Psalm 147:5, 1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:4-5

omnipotence
Luke 1:37, jeremiah 32:27, Job 42:2

all thanks to:
openbible.info



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2014 11:54AM by secularhumanguy.

Thanks, I'll check them out.

Many christians point to the top verses or ones like them to say 'god is perfect', 'god is moral', and 'god loves you'. While ignoring chapters in which god kills millions or endorses genocide, or destroys a nation, not to mention all the bigotry he puts into his 'laws'. If a god like that exists, he's not worth worshiping

so the perfect being they endorse IS fallible, their excuse 'he was once a fallible man' how much dissonance does it require to actually believe that horseshit

Well the Mormons tried to soften God by saying "he was once a man" just like us - assuming he could relate to human beings.

But he could also be vicious if you think of the old Testament. So did he repent and become softer later on? Or is he bipolar? I dunno

when religions are forced on people, God rules with fear.

When religions have to recruit, God rules with love.