I'm suffering from a major disconnect here.

Several posters have pointed out the billions TSCC has spent (i.e. wasted) in developing downtown SLC and other posters have discussed members cleaning the ward house toilets. Recently, I read on another blog that "honored" members also get to assist in cleaning nearby temples.

What gives? Is the church actually broke or is this more like the "proof of faith" test in Scientology wherein new recruits are required to scrub the floors of the HQ with toothbrushes?

All my brain can do is wonder WTF?

And don't forget - they have also suspended the building of new chapels in order to save some money. I know of one building that will have 4 wards in it. It's not a large building either. Three wards was pushing the limit.

Both buildings in the stake here already have 4 wards. They are building a new stake center since two stake presidencies are in the stake center up the street, but they've suspended the plans to build a new chapel for the eight wards in the stake indefinitely.

There's a lot of new construction in two of the eight wards and they'll likely be creating another two wards in the stake within the next year or two. They've already said that they won't be building the new church building on the neighborhood lot they own. They'll have some of the wards meet in "underutilized" buildings in nearby cities.

Another thought - could the GBH temple building binge have gotten them into deep do-do? Those buildings must cost a hell of a lot to maintain.

I think you're right Templar. All the temples, the malls and residential condos may have drained their bank account to a level that made Monson feel uncomfortable. They didn't see the economy tanking in 2008, (someone must have missed that revelation) so they couldn't sell the City Creek condos for the price they wanted. They had to unload them for much less, or risk them being empty until things improved. And don't forget about purchasing thousands of acres of land in Florida. That had to be a nice drain to the checking account.

I don't think Monson has a clue of what's going on. Just saying.

On the other hand, the PR machine is on damage control.

I think that the Mormon church was squeezed financially during the recession. Church authorities saw revenue decreasing as members lost their jobs and their homes. Remember that Utah had one of the highest rates of home foreclosures in the nation. I think that this was the initial impetus for the "every member a janitor" program.

Now, was the church really hurting? I think not. It just experienced a drop in revenue. I've seen data in the past that suggests that Mormons tend to give more money -- a *lot* more money -- to their church than members of other Christian denominations. Data from other denominations suggests that a 2.6% (of income) donation was the average prior to the recession, and 2.4% during the recession. Plus LDS churches do not need to pay for the numerous church positions that are normally paid for by other denominations (minister, assistant minister, youth minister, organist, secretary, janitor, grounds keeper, etc.)

Most ward budgets are tiny and are fully supported by the tithing of one or two members. However, the church employs thousands of individuals at a total cost at least in the hundreds of millions.

The Mormon church is wealthy beyond belief but their spending outstrips their income. So they try to make it up by milking the beaten down members and extracting more alms from poor widows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2015 10:08AM by Cheryl.

I think they call that "cash flow" poor.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2015 10:37AM by Templar.

You bring up a point most people miss:

The church is build (doctrinally, financially and emotionally) on growth.

They have to KEEP GROWING TO EXIST.

Aside from the internet facepalm and the subsequent exodus this has created, the world is SATURATED with religion.

Not one of my 50+ friends in Europe goes to church. Maybe 3-4 believe in God. This trend is coming ashore, and fast.

The "surge" and the "hastening" have proven that people are just not interested. period. 40% increse in missionaries with a 4% increase in baptisms. There is virtually not one person on this planet, and certainly one that would make the church money (USA, Western Europe) that has not heard or can find the truth about the church in less than 5 minutes.

A kid I baptized a few years ago returned from his mission in Chile. I am talking rural, poverty in the dessert, iliterate people, peasant, christian- type mission.

He told me it was almost impossible to get a second discussion becuase people would google the church or someone would google it for them or send the pastor or priest over after the 1st discussion to intervene.

I did the math, this kid paid 10K to get 3 families that still remain active after 4 years, who pay no more than $10 a month, total, in tithe, if they pay at all. The appearance of growth is becoming terrible expensive to keep up.

For contrast, my brother went to chile on his mission in the early 90's (to santiago to be fair) but he baptized 60-70 people. 2 of them are active.

On my mission, elder Carmack of the 70 told us the following (this is in florida):

"your mission, becuase it in in the US in THE most important mission, you are not only saving souls, you are keeping the church running. Your converts are the ones whose tithing keeps the church running. Sure, its nice to go to Bolivia and convert 100 people, but if all of them paid tithing, they would not be able to pay for their chapel, so it is CRUCIAL that we focus on baptizing wealthly members, and in the US"

Some posters have pointed out that many recent resignations have been higher educated members who have learned to think critically and see the essays for what they are. On average, these members are higher wage earners and, more than likely, higher tithe payers.

In other words, the TSCC may well be losing the more lucrative tithe paying members while retaining those who require the most financial assistance. A double wammy for Joseph Inc.!

My aunt and uncle help clean a temple and have helped clean the conference center. They are 76 and 82. Yet, they had never been able to attend conference in the conference center.

My daughter, who is CLOSE friends with the past two bishops and stake RS president, has been to general conference I don't know how many times. She took my aunt to GC a few conferences ago. They got to sit really close to the pulpit WITH the stake RS president. My aunt was so excited. My aunt is an over the top stalwart Mormon, but couldn't even get into the conference center.

I truly think that it's disgusting that a large wealthy church would be so uncaring that it would ask (or possibly shame) members in their seventies and older to clean their buildings.

Sorry, but I can't help but think of them as heartless bastards who have the audacity to claim they are inspired by god.

Templar wrote: "In other words, the TSCC may well be losing the more lucrative tithe paying members while retaining those who require the most financial assistance. A double wammy for Joseph Inc."

In addition, a majority of new converts are the poor or recent immigrants to new areas. I have two nephews serving mission in the mid-west. They have had a total of two baptisms in 18 months. Both were recent African immigrants. Nephews have emailed family asking for clothing donations for these families. They are also getting aid from the local ward. I see this trend continuing to drain LD$ Inc.

I do not think this is anything new, but simply a natural evolution that began with the elimination of local ward budgets in 1990. The Church is ultimately a business and most businesses value and need predictability. The goal is to eliminate variable costs and any unnecessary cash outflows. The Church will take advantage of anything the members are able to do for free, and the deluded sheeple will always be willing.

As EQ president in 1999-2000, I witnessed this first hand in a Boise-area ward. We had a new family move in that needed financial assistance. The Bishop would not agree to any cash payments, and was only willing to provide them access to the Bishop's storehouse (i.e. food bank). Personally, I was paying $300 per month in fast offerings, and we did not have any other families on cash assistance, so I asked the Bishop why we could not do more. He advised that his instructions were to turn over as much of the fast offerings as possible to the stake, which would then turn them over to Salt Lake. My guess is that Salt Lake was actively forecasting *local* fast offerings as an additional revenue stream. Local consumption of that "local" stream was discouraged and therefore only tapped *locally* in the most extreme situations.

I should add that like any business, there is likely enormous internal pressure to increase profits every year. I do not think that the suited leadership is content with flat profits. If revenue is taking a hit due to high-earner resignations, the logical tack would be to reduce costs.

This topic has been beaten to death, specially last year. The sumation?:

TSCC is cash poor (relatively speaking) in comparison to previous years.

They were set up to be a cash business (tithing from USA), since this is in decline, they are diversifying to more real estate (FLA, HI).

The buildings in the USA are to bring 1 Million per month (4-5 wards per building) in tithing. This is no longer a given, but the cost of running these chapels have remained the same.

The church is set up this way: wards send in all their money downtown, they get back a few dollars per member that attends sac meeting (average of 3 months). They are to send this money back to TSCC in the way of buying manuals, supplies, etc. Yes, they keep almost all of the ward money. So TSCC has cut the expenses in the wards that do not directly return to them (activities budgets, janitor, YM, YW, etc)

The mall is an investment, somehow masquerading as a "donation" to the city. it is losing money, badly. Those condos are not selling, even after drastic price cuts, and the mall is NOT making money.

Much of their sales pitch is based on the ilusion of growth. Imagine if they ever said "we are not growing and we are losing members", it would be a death blow to their faith. So they reshuffle the chairs...split wards, merge them, realign them, give regular members high callings to keep them in and motivate others.

The tell tale signs are there: the have primarily added missionaries to US missions, where the units make a profit. They pourposedly slowed down growth in areas where the church will always lose money (Africa). They have laid of employees. They have dumped a significant fortune in adversiting and PR campaigns worldwide (including the playbill for the book of mormom musical).

They have added a disclosure to tithing slips saying that ALL donations go to the church, not where you checked the box. So your BOM priting donation is go9ing to pay for Monson's 24 hour chef.

They have placed an disproportionate ammount of time and attention to tithe paying. Recent Ensign editions have had as many as 5 articles about it in a single edition.

They have unofficially written some countries off for investment, mainly in Northern europe. They just want to maintain a presence and appear to grow.

They have doubled down on the brighamite principle: as long as we've got a prophet, nothing else matters, just do as you are told and we promise you this and that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2015 01:17PM by sb.

Thanks for the summary.

New people get into RfM all the time, so I'm sure there are and will be constant repeats as people go down the various paths of discovery. It's new to them.

But I think an angel loses a feather every time another person discovers one of the sad truths about LDS Inc. So its all good!

TSCC is a business being run by people who have no idea what they are doing. They put $50/hr professionals (engineers, doctors, etc) to work scrubbing toilets, mowing lawns, and canning food. They speculate in real estate by "listening to the spirit". They are "yes men" so the stupid decisions made by the top leadership are never scrutinized.

On another thread ("Shinkage") the OP wrote that a ward in Davis County Utah`"had gone from 250+ on sunday to 40 in 4 years". If correct, tithing and fast offerings would surely have taken a big hit.

Perhaps TSCC is in a hell of a lot more trouble than we fully realize. That may be the real reason Packer doesn't smile as another OP observed.

I think the answer to all of this is the same thing as always; "bean counters" as we called them.
Accountants lining up the budget and making it all work within a certain framework.

You're right. Sometimes we must step back and realize we are talking about a corporation here ("Joseph Inc.) and not "the little church in the wildwood".

Tithing to TSCC is like monthly subscriptions to the cable company. Like cable, member subscribers are "cutting the cord" at increasing rates directly impacting their "revenue stream".

Hinckley was more devious than you think. He wasn't just a buffoon. He cleverly started spending more on Third World temples so that could be used to shame the US members. What? You want a new chapel? Just think of those poor Africans, Colombians, Brazilians, etc. who walk to church, meet in a tent, and desperately need a temple for their sacred ordinances.

And then he was foolish enough to start building City Center, so we actually know where the money went.

I took this from How the Mormons Make Money--Business Week, Here's the interesting paragraph: The Mormon Church is hardly the only religious institution to be less than forthcoming about its wealth; the Catholic Church has been equally opaque throughout history. On the other hand, says historian D. Michael Quinn, who is working on a book about the LDS Church’s finances and businesses, “The Mormon Church is very different than any other church. … Traditional Christianity and Judaism make a clear distinction between what is spiritual and what is temporal, while Mormon theology specifically denies that there is such a distinction.” To Latter-day Saints, opening megamalls, operating a billion-dollar media and insurance conglomerate, and running a Polynesian theme park are all part of doing God’s work. Says Quinn: “In the Mormon [leadership’s] worldview, it’s as spiritual to give alms to the poor, as the old phrase goes in the Biblical sense, as it is to make a million dollars.”

From the article, even if all members were to stop paying tithing, they could still have cash flow. They may have to liquidate or cell some properties, but it would keep them going for quite a while.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money

Be sure to read all 7 pages; I was fuming.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2015 03:15PM by dydimus.

Yes, Joseph and his made up religion are very much of this world!