I have been an armchair observer of males since I was a teen. Like Jane Goodall watching the chimps. (Just a metaphor, people) And I have often wondered if it is hard to be male. My brother had only sisters, but plenty of boyhood pals, thank goodness. I always played cars, Legos, and countless other things with him when we were kids.
Our dad moved away with his new wife and her kids.

I was in a wonderful relationship with a man who changed my life. I treated him like a man; better still, I treated him like he was important. Early on, (when I was still TBM, he a nevermo) I stopped "correcting" him when he laughed at something below the TSCC standards. Our relationship skyrocketed. When he told his stories, I gave my full attention. I talked him up in front of people. I respected him. I loved him. He died suddenly of a heart attack one year ago yesterday.
I hope to love a man again, yet am completely turned off by the hipster, gamer crowd.

Wow, sorry my post is all over the map.
There are two men in my family who are often raked over the coals from their wives. Constant picking and criticism, in the name of "I'm teaching him to be right" can destroy a man, or any human, over time. I have vowed to never be that kind of woman. Here's hoping I can one day find a man who will appreciate it.

Just have to add, this man treated me like I was a rare treasure he was lucky to find. If your man is a good person, you'll get back what you give. In my case, many times more.

My Dad treated my Mom like a Queen. I treat my dear wife the same way. We don't own each other.

RB

That's because he found a rare treasure. You.

Wow, thank you.

You'll probably get a lot of different perspectives on this.

Men and women face different difficulties. A lot of contemporary (third or fourth-wave, I guess?) feminist literature is written about the difficulties modern women face in choosing between their families and their work. Some examples:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/10505345/Career-or-motherhood-For-most-women-its-still-a-drastic-choice.html
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21600998-after-falling-years-proportion-mums-who-stay-home-rising-return

There's little discussion about the male role -- it's more or less expected that men will be the providers, and kids will come second. Most male-oriented literature in that vein is 'making time for the kids,' and less about the more absolute decision of having kids vs. staying at home.

The proportion of men in college is declining; now, men are outnumbered 60-40 at many colleges in the US. Men pick deadlier professions, by and large. Men tend to die younger, and more poorly educated, after having worked a longer number of years than their female counterparts.

This isn't a complaint, mind you. Whether it comes culturally, societally, or instinctively, this is the behavior of men today.

The LDS context is somewhat different. Girls are brought up in the LDS tradition to find a good man (read: priesthood holder and RM) and that everything will be just peachy after the temple wedding. Unfortunately, many women are bereft of life skills at the point they get married; the women want men to fulfill expectations that are unrealistic or unwarranted. To that end, the men get nagged. That's more or less how my parents met (and subsequently divorced).

I see a lot of young men that are clueless about life coming up. They go to college and graduate, having never held a job. They don't know how to change a tire on their car. Entitlement, I suppose, is the word for it, but it's undergirded by the expectation that somehow things will just work out. It's part of the slacktivist culture, which believes that simply caring about something hard enough will make a difference ("Like this Facebook post if you hate cancer" being a prominent example).

I may sound curmudgeonly, though I'm barely 30. The overall marriage rate is dropping, as men find substitutes (hookup culture, the virtual world, etc.) and women do likewise.

I don't think men have it any worse than women. It's a different set of challenges that face each.

Good points, all. The man in my life was 20 years older. I look around, and am TRYING to be optimistic-but if a guy can't protect me, I lose my woody, so-to-speak. (Sorry to be crass, but it's fitting, isn't it!)
My male roommate let me do all the lighting of the pilot light on the furnace when it went out in Novenber. I was lighting it 8 times a day (the landlords finally got it fixed, after six days of the apartment at 39 degrees-- guess what? They're TBM landlords! Thought I was safe in the Midwest).
I really lost respect for my roommate, letting the woman (me) light the pilot, make all the maintence calls, (I finally got angry and withheld $100 rent- that got the furnace fixed!) basically, do all the work. He's lived here 6 months and taken the garbage out --twice! Says I have to tell hi to do it. Uh, no, I'm not going to be his mommy. I'd rather do it myself.
Long story short, I compare him to my man, who took care of his home and environment without being told.
Is this what I have to expect in a marriage? To be in charge, to dole out chores? Putting me in the role of mommy is a BIG bucket of ice water toward my respecting him as a man.

Lucky man.

He introduced me to The Godfather, Charlie Chaplin, and so many songs, philosophies, and things I wouldn't have found my own. He helped me grow strengths in myself that I had been afraid to nurture. He gave me laughter, so much laughter. I hope I made the last ten years of his life good, better than they would otherwise have been. I hope I gave him what he gave me.

It sure sounds like you did. Just being with someone who can laugh with you is good fortune -

Something that needs to be understood is you can be both a person of privilege and a marginalized minority. By being born male you have some really ridiculous and arbitrary rules brought to you by good ol' fashioned misogyny and patriarchy:

As Alpiner said, you're expected to be a provider as a sign of your manhood.

-Don't cry because real men don't cry or show emotion or are even emotional to begin with.

-You're always up for an easy fuck and men can never be sexually assaulted by a woman. If you were hard, you wanted it.

-If you stand up for women being degraded or harassed, it's only because you're a white knight or want some pinocha.

-Not being into football, cars, beer, and tits means you're a f*g

-Being a gay man is the worst thing possible, so if you show any signs of them homosexual tendencies, you deserve to be beaten and need to "man up."

-Never forget, the worst thing for a man is to have any kind of feminine traits, so if these are shown, that man must be punished and ridiculed accordingly.

-If a male is showing any signs of weakness, remember to yell at him for not having any testicles.

I'm hoping this will change. Patriarchy hurts and destroys men, too.

Wow. More good Good points.
I have always wondered if, at the same time society tells them to be a man, males are silmutaniously being told to squash their masculinity and masculine traits. This is why my man (let's call him Manny) stood out to me. He was
Well groomed
Masculine
Cultured
Assertive (but not a bully)
A leader (but teachable)
Funny
Stoic (not emotionless)
Full of self-respect (but not arrogant, I looved his sense of self-respect)

Raised in LA in the 60s, he knew hard times. His brothers were in LA Hispanic gangs, he stayed out of them. Moved away when he could.
Are the masculine traits in today's boys nurtured or squelched?
I always wonder about this.
The TBM males I knew seemed squelched, surprise, defeated. It's no wonder that I couldn't marry one of them. I could not dredge up an OUNCE of attraction.

You missed a point that really bugs me:

Men are not trusted around children like women are. Our culture potrays men as slave to their sexual desires, which "are always turned on." Which apparantly is supposed to make children unsafe around males.

I thin it's kind of hard to be a human, man or woman. Relatively speaking, both men and women have it pretty good in modern western culture as far as how the genders treat each other. We're not perfect in that regard, by any means, but miles ahead of where we once were and where other cultures still are.

SO true. I am so happy to live in this time and age.

He sounds like a great friend and lover. Friends like that are hard to find.

The BTW many. Many . Many. Peps can even point to a pilot let alone light it. Feel accomplished.

I don't know how hard it is to be a man, since I haven't tried the alternative. I also happen to enjoy a good relationship with my wife, though it has been rocky at times. It has gotten better when I finally understood some of the games that are played and decided I wasn't going to participate. For example, when having financial problems, my wife threatened divorce, I told her I wasn't leaving, and pointed to the door if she wanted to leave. She reconsidered.

In general, however, there are problems. Somehow the media and feminists and people here at this site focus on men as the source of our problems. Despite the fact that most divorces are initiated by women (money being the leading cause). And women get an advantage in divorce court. And women are nearly as physically abusive as men. And they mostly have control over the sexuality of men.

We bash the church for being one-sided, and that's how many feminists are. Men always the abuser, and women always the victims.

I read on this site, comments like "men are pigs", which goes unchallenged. And of course the use of the word, "penishood". As though women in the church are sweet, innocent victims, despite the fact they are actively brainwashing the kids, and using the bishop to discipline their husbands, and using the church to control his sexuality. And using the church to pressure husband to be a provider. And wanting to marry an RM for increased status.

I have been listening to this lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e92u5U3Acgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfgbIM3gvyI

In the Q&A session, a man tells of his 8th grade son being slapped in the face by a 1st grader who then said he wasn't allowed to hit her back. The speaker replied there isn't anything he can do. That's just the way it is, and she teaches her boy to be careful around girls, as they will win if he's accused of anything. Everywhere it is emphasized that men are the abusers, and if they get hit, they are to just "be a real man" and not hit back. Under no circumstances are you to retaliate.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.

Wow. I suspected as much. My dad stays in his bad marriage because he doesn't want to be "the brute" as he confided to me recently. You know it's bad when my dad shares something like this.
Interesting point about TBM women.
There was a threat today, "Do real men hit women?" In which most answers were "no." I say, if she hits you first, you are free to hit back.
The pervasive verbal cruelty from female to male is overlooked in the church and our modern society at large because it is viewed as a passive abuse, leaving no bruises.
Let me tell you, it leaves bruises. Two men in my family hide it, but it shows.

You may think it's okay to hit back if you're attacked, but, if a man does so, the police will likely arrest him, not the woman. Just part of the rampant misandry. Men have a great deal to lose if they defend themselves.

I'm going to get a little subjective here,

How many men do you know personally that have been beaten by their female partners? How many male friends do you know that have been raped by their female partners, friends, or acquaintances? Were they blamed for it and just asking for it? Were they drunk? Desperate? Man-sluts? This is something I really want to know because I hear all about this "rampant misandry" but see little of it in practice or in society.

I can think of maybe 3 or 4 women out of the hundreds I have known that haven't been abused or assaulted in some way. Yes, I really know that many women who tell me their stories. Men, too, who were assaulted by males and females alike, in a system that enables abusers.

I don't deny that DV happens to men because I know it happens. These days, BOTH partners are often arrested in a he said-she said DV incident.

Women are not the enemy nor are men. Systemic sexism is the problem.

I'm waiting to hear someone mention how men do all the dangerous jobs like rig work, military mining, etc...

Guess what?!? Women have been trying to get into these fields for a long time. When they do break in, they're assaulted and harassed. Told they can't do as good a job as their male counterparts by males and females alike by virtue of their vaginas.

In SD, there's an influx of women moving up there for traditionally male dominated jobs. If the companies weren't so desperate for workers, I would wonder how easy it would be to get a job in these fields.

We've already seen what plays out with the military and women if you've been paying attention for the last 20 years. Why aren't women required to register for the draft? Why do women need to be like men and be on the battlefield? Why do women need to break down barriers and get into places like The Citadel? Why don't these women get that they will be sexually assaulted and harassed when working beside a bunch of men? That's what you get when you try to break into male dominated roles and should suck it up and deal with it! (These are all questions and statements I've been hearing for the last 2 decades and more.)

See North Country for example when women attempt to work in hazardous fields like mining.

It's a fucking double edged sword. One one side we're told, "Women can't do these jobs because of A, B, or C" while on the other side we're bombarded with "The privilege of being a woman means you don't have to work in a deadly field." We're damned if we try, we damned if we don't.

These aren't the only hazardous jobs in the world, plenty of everyday jobs can be just as dangerous. When I was a bartender, I was threatened to be shot by some gang member (a woman if that makes any difference) because I refused to serve her. I worked in a Denny's in an absolute hell-hole of an area in the Springs and am very lucky I was never stabbed or assaulted. Currently in my position as a nanny, I have concerns for my safety for reasons that I won't post at this time.

No, I'm not an angry feminist. I'm an exhausted one, having to address these issues everywhere and every single fucking day. It's too bad it's so pervasive here, too, but I'll keep fighting the good fight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 12:06PM by Itzpapalotl.

Yes, it goes in cycles too.
Boy: must not hit girls, must enjoy Tonka trucks, BB guns, never cries.
Teen: Jocks are on the "A" list; nerds are lower than low and bullied to show their subservience to Jocks.
Men: Flip. Now the nerds are the highest earners and most sought after by females, corporations. Teen Jocks return to wander their old high school halls.

Let's check in on Archie, Jughead, Reggie, Moose and Dilbert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djRAiiFlCy8

I told someone once that I cried probably about 3 times a month.

They were absolutely shocked.

"But you're a guy. What do you even have to cry about that is that bad?"

Guys cry too. I just sometimes feel like a good cry is in order and I always feel better afterwards. It's like personal soul searching time.

But this person found me weird for that, because I'm a "guy".

It is a little funny though, I've always been an observer of women in the same way you described watching chimps.

I have all sisters, all my cousins are female, and I befriend women very easily. People always called me a "ladies man". Im actually gay, so my interest in women is purely platonic.

From my point of view and from what I have observed, I have always been grateful to have been born a male. I mean yeah there are challenges and stereotypes and stupid expectations just like with women... and although as pointed out above women are given leeway in some areas of life more than men... I have found it easier to be more carefree and less inhibited than my counterpart female friends simply because of my gender. But maybe that also has a lot to do with my more independent nature.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 12:15AM by nonsequiter.

For most of my life i've been 5'4.

In my 20's I was engaged to a guy who was 6'2 and more than twice my weight.

He hit me when I told him I was breaking off the engagement. One swing put me in the hospital.

If i'd hit him, he wouldn't have even felt it.

There's no reason on this planet he should have hit me. The only reason he didn't continue was because I was passed out on the floor and he thought I was dead. He left me there. I came to and called the police.

Explain to me how that was ok. Explain to me how I should have been able to defend myself. I will say, after I left him I got a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and a restraining order. Too bad for women, a piece of paper doesn't usually stop a fist.

I am sorry for your loss.

Having lost 2 wives, one to a senseless act of violence and one to a lingering illness.

All I can tell you is that given time you can find another love.

I was given the advice to take time before looking for another mate. It was the best advice I was ever given.

As far as being male, I think different ideals exist for different generations. I only feel complete if I am in the more traditional role of stoic, strong, protector and solver of problems, with a gentle kind streak for my family.

That was the examples my Father and Grandfather gave to me.

Hang in there, your match is out there.

I'm sorry that you lost your partner. Don't lose hope of finding another boyfriend somewhere down the road. There are lots of different kinds of men out there, one will be right for you.

I'm with you, I don't get the type of woman who is constantly picking on or criticizing her husband.

Nope. Not at all

I think being a male in a patriarchy is tough. Yes, there are privileges, especially for the elites, but there are also lots of expectations and restraints.

Growing up, I was very afraid of the responsibility of making enough money to pay for a wife, who obviously would not have a career, and a large number of children. Today, it's obvious that it is nearly impossible to have children with a single income.

It is very difficult if you are not a stereotypical man. Being gay, bookish, domestic, shy, musical, etc. in a culture where alpha male athletes are the norm can be tough. It always bothered me that my dad valued my brother's interest in hunting and cars more than my AP classes and scholarships, but my dad could understand my brother and not me.

No, there's only one hard thing about it.

When I went to Ricks in September of '66 I was a pretty insecure fellow when it came to women. And being 18 years old in a (to me) surreal environment where it appeared that virtually EVERY female was looking for a RM to wed ASAP (on orders from here TBM Mom?) and where I knew I WASN'T going to go on a mission, any chances of a female relationship past just being a classmate/passing acquaintance were slim and none.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 12:53PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

My brother worried about that too, having chosen to not serve a mission, but knowing what the girls expected. He is out of TSCC now. That's all three of us!

I came back to Alberta, got back to the partying I'd missed so bad at Rexburg, started dating and fell in love with a Catholic. The rest is history.

Ron Burr

I work at Walmart and it is extremely segregated. I guess I'm seen as the big tough guy (140 lbs?) cause I'm stuck in the backroom unloading with the other young bucks. They never higher a girl to work in the back (though I'm sure they'd be more than capable). It's too much of a psychological risk to take I guess (what if she didn't fit in with the bros?). The girls and have to cashier or work in apparel. They never have guys working in apparel but sometimes let the young "sensitive types" work cashier or salesfloor (but only if they are ok to look at, mind you).

But it's absolutely true boys have it harder than girls. Boys are expected to provide a wonderful living and in today's post agricultural world it's near impossible (if you don't have connections?) Girls get away with working less because they "work like a girl." lol



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 01:42PM by poopstone.

I'm a male who always gets the cashier jobs.

Im not sensitive though, I just have people skills.

That's the same thing just said differently.

Perhaps every Walmart is run differently. I'm in a small town (very traditional) not a large immigrant presence, not a lot of jobs. Maybe small towns prejudices have a bigger sway?

Why don't you report it to your manager or local labour board? Wal-Mart is infamous for these kinds of practices. If it's a physical issue, you can always get a note from the doctor.

Personally I would rather work in the back and not deal with the jerks that frequent Wal-Mart as long as I was treated fairly and with respect by my co-workers. But because I have excellent people skills and am self-motivated, more often than not I'm asked at a new retail job to work the register or on the floor.

I've worked retail off and on for years. I see women in the back loading and unloading in the big box retailers. When I've worked in boutiques, I had to unload the large boxes, pack up heavy, oddly shaped fragile items (which a serious job skill) for shipping, plus deal with customers, clean, organize, etc...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 01:55PM by Itzpapalotl.

Perhaps every Walmart is run differently. I'm in a small town (very traditional) not a large immigrant presence, not a lot of jobs. Maybe small towns prejudices have a bigger sway?

IDK that I necessarily agree with that for EVERY small town (I'm from a very open-minded, liberal small mountain town in CO) but maybe that holds true for your location.

When you applied at Wal-Mart, did you specify what job you wanted or did you put "any position available?"

When I applied at Safeway when we moved to NW NM, I told the store manager that I was interested in learning anything, in any department, even if it meant I'd spend my workdays covered in bloody meat and seafood juice. He was so impressed with that, he wanted to hire me on the spot. Due to various circumstances, I declined the position and ended up back in childcare, as a nanny. Buiding upon my decades of experience with children, I'm hired frequently to provided occasional care for various local families and have expanded into dog-walking and petcare/sitting.

I did end up working for Safeway eventually when I was hired to be a "secret shopper."