It takes clear thinking and courage to walk away from Mormonism.

I think if we've accomplished that fete we are able to decide if, when, and how we should approach forgiveness.

Yesterday someone said it's hard to do but everyone must forgive wrongs or they harbor those same wrongs within them. They quoted Buddah and other unnamed "forgiveness experts" to back up the assertion.

I would suggest that the most obvious expert on this and many other personal decision topics is the individual in question. Buddah is dead and has never met any of us.

Forgiveness experts are strangers who write books for a living. They might have good ideas or not. Just because something is in print doesn't mean it fits our individual situations better than how we see our lives.

One person said yes, forgiveness is important because a casual acquaintance stopped speaking to them and they felt better when they stopped paying heed to the slight. Sounds like a good solution.

But does it always work for much more serious ongoing abuses when the perpetrators feel entitled to keep up the maltreatment? I can't speak for all of these cases, but I would say sometimes it might work and many times it might not.

Some exmos have suffered beatings, sexual abuse, near starvation, extreme emotional and spiritual abuse. Shrugging that off is not something anyone has a right to demand.

Blueorchid pointed out that many times he's been able to solve problems by facing up to them and not brushing aside anger and disappointment. Many of the improvements and inventions in the world grew from not forgiving ills but in finding ways to combat them for everyone.

The point?

I am in favor of individuals forgiving those who do ill to them if they think it will bring peace.

I am also in favor of individuals who do not feel this is helpful or justified.

What I oppose is a blanket dictum saying that we are weak, mean spirited, or that we harbor everything mean and ugly within us if we don't forgive it.

I'm not angry at anyone I can think of. But there are wrongs I've suffered and I'll always work to right them if I can. Giving up on them won't improve the world for me or for anyone else.

I don't think we have to necessarily fall into line with so-called experts or dead prophets because we are exmos which means we are brave and smart enough to make our own choices and create our own wisdom.

I have a seriously personality disordered mother who betrayed me a few years ago. She knew exactly what she was doing. It was served up with a heaping helping of soul crushing psychological abuse. It almost killed me. One relative, who doesn't understand asked me to forgive her. There's no way that I can forgive someone who has no remorse, and continues to divide the family. That wouldn't be good for my mental health.

We can be angry at the Morg all we want, for as long as we want. It's part of our healing process. Why should we forgive any person or organization that knowingly continues to inflict harm on innocent victims.

Beautifully put, all of it, but this one line had me on the floor and says it all:

"Buddha is dead and never met any of us." What a classic.

I know how important Forgiveness is for many but I also know that Forgiveness is not the only option. Erasing the wrong doings or ignoring their effects in the interest of "being the better person" do not satisfy me. I was not the "worse person" for being targeted in the first place, I owe no responsibility to anyone for the behavior and faults of another person so I refuse to take that title. Forgiveness is not in my plan, lessons learned about protecting myself in all ways is. Does this make me a bad person or one suffering from anger? Nope, I am a very happy person who happens to choose to live positively and protected. I know what to watch for and I have developed an intuition that serves me well. The decisions of bad people do not mete out requirements of me.

Thank you, Cheryl, for this great post--and all the replies are great, too. As a victim of abuse, I needed to know this. Abusers--and also the cult--blame their victims. I took on that blame, myself, for two decades. I did have to investigate the past and on-going behaviors of my abusers to realize that there were many other victims, and not just me. All of us were not to blame. Taking on blame means taking on responsibility, and that puts you in a position to choose to forgive or to not forgive, according to Mormonism. "The Miracle of Forgiveness" (heinous book!) states that the victim is always to blame in some way. This is so not true!

In my case, none of my abusers never admitted they were wrong or asked for my forgiveness. In fact, they acted like nothing ever happened. Also, they got away with it.

1. Getting validation that someone did actually something awful to you, is more important than forgiveness.

2. Seeing your abuser pay for his crimes, is more healing than forgiveness.

3. Somehow, stopping your abuser for continuing the abuse would be more deal than forgiving him and letting him continue on his life's path.

4. Finally,fForgiving yourself, and realizing that you were an innocent victim, is more important than forgiving the perpetrator.

I had none of the first three opportunities, so I never got closure. I had to go to therapy, for my PTSD. I lived in fear that these men would hunt me down--and they did--and my brother tried and tried again, every time I saw him. Finally, I stopped all contact with my brother, which had to include the family he lived with, who always took his side. Was I supposed to forgive the ON-GOING abuse, and allow my brother free contact with my children? Never. I know that it was my duty as a parent to not forgive, and to keep my family safe. I am proud of myself. Sometimes, we need to know when to remove ourselves from hurtful people.

You see, it doesn't matter if we forgive or not forgive, psychopathic abusers NEVER STOP.

What a brave and powerful woman you are and so very wise.

If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him.

To koan a phrase. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 07:27PM by Shummy.

Some of my favorite comments so far:

"The decisions of bad people do not mete out requirements of me". I love that.

Even the bad decisions of basically GOOD people don't mete out requirements of you. If someone has done something wrong, THEY can figure out how to make it right. I can easily forgive an honest mistake if someone recognizes it, apologizes, and tries to fix it. But if someone is cruel, dishonest, or abusive, or has broken a trust, that shows a huge character flaw and I'm just not willing to make myself vulnerable to that.

I loved Breeze's list, as well. Especially the part about validation and stopping the behavior.

This is true in a non-Mormon setting, too.

There are some people to whom offering them forgiveness is like offering a pig a straw hat. It wouldn't wear it, it would just eat it.

My Mormon parents divided my family. They lied about their income and made me live in garages and a basement in order to save up a lot of money on the side when I was a kid. I had to steal my school lunches. They called me a follower of Satan and had me put away in a boy's ranch to "protect" the family from my evil. They told my grandparents I was rotten, along with my siblings, to control the will and the large estate. Once they were wealthy, my parents had no use for me and moved several times, investing in real estate, which was put in a trust for my two youngest sisters, who are Mormons. As a child I was beaten, scorned and called a loser by my father. As an adult, I was excluded and lied to about family finances (I had to look the information up online).

I don't know what to forgive. Any ideas?

I don't believe forgiveness is always the best route for everyone. It can force some who were abused to rehash and rehash what happened until they can arrive at forgiveness. Many times this is when the perpetrator is not even sorry for what he or she did. I'm mostly thinking about cases of child abuse. Why let the abuser have the kind of control over you still? I have found that the best thing is to move on. One can get help for it in therapy without forgiving. There are great Victims of Violence therapy programs across the nation the help get the therapy they need to move on. They also can help the victims write letters to the abusers to let them know the damage they did. There are many options in life besides forgiveness that helps those who are offended still live a full, happy and healthy life.

Thanks Cheryle. This post touches on an important theme. I wonder too about a TBM family member who was abusive to me, has never apologized for it, and were I to continue contact with said person, would continue to be abusive.I've removed myself from contact with this person, as a way to be less susceptible to the abusive behaviors.

Does forgiveness mean that we tell them we forgive them, regardless of how they respond to us telling them? Is forgiveness about showing love to those who harm us? Can doing so be done in a safe way so that perps (those who inflict emotional, verbal or physical abuse) will not re-harm

Now, Mormons would say I should forgive said person. But I'm not sure doing so is going to make things any better for the perp, depending on their ability to acknowledge and understand their abusive behaviour. It's been my experience that abusive types rarely acknowledge their abusiveness and most continue to abuse (as Breeze said, they don't stop!)

Forgiveness will possibly have said person think that the behavior is ok and continue to behave abusively. The only way "forgiveness" is possible in such cases is to silently forgive them "for they know not what they do" - but one would have to continue to keep a protective distance for mental and physical safety etc.

Forgiveness does not equal reconciliation or going back to the "way things were".

To me, forgiveness is about you, not about the perp. It is about getting over the anger and having peace in yourself. It does not necessarily mean the anger goes away completely. It is appropriate to be angry over wrongs that are done to you. To me, forgiveness just means that the anger is no longer debilitating or holding you back from personal peace and having a happy, fulfilling life.

When I left TSCC, I was able to see how emotionally abusive and manipulative my TBM mother has been my whole life. Her emotional abuse and manipulation also went into overdrive when I left TSCC. It was affecting my marriage and my children. As a result, I had to break off contact. Of course, my TBM parents are blaming me and think I am being heard-hearted and not forgiving.

I forgave them, but that doesn't mean that we will have reconciliation any time soon. My mother (and my father) need to realize and acknowledge that they hurt me, resolve to change and show they have changed. So far, they have not. I am not sure they are capable of this so long as they are TBM. I want all that is good for them in their lives. Unfortunately, that does not include having a relationship with me and my family at this time.

Forgiveness does not mean abusers get to continue to abuse. You have every right to protect yourself from abuse.

With no relationship to the meaning most people see in it.

I think whatever peace you're describing is just a normal reaction we all have as we go through life. Time tends to heal and people tend to move on with their lives naturally and in their own good time. This happens without being under the gun with people hounding them to forgive and forget and without taking on the guilt of others who have wronged them.

Buddah lived a long time ago and reading his brief quotes out of context doesn't likely reflect his wisdom. Who knows what he would say if he could walk a mile in our shoes today?

I always read posts that relate to forgiveness and think how wonderful it must be to have the discipline or wherewithal or whatever it takes to forgive everyone everything. But I fear that train has left the station and I'm not on it.

My oldest brother (nine years my senior) is the villain in my story. He abused me as a child (beatings) and then used the less noticeable passive aggressive route along with verbal abuse when I grew up. He is also the person who baptized me when I was eight years old. He was adored by all who knew him because of his charming personality and through it all I tried to forgive (of course without any apologies from him) and move to a positive place in my relationship with him, always trying to please him. I attribute my actions to being raised in the church where forgiveness is sanctioned as some higher law, where females of the church are trained and indoctrinated to be subservient to the males in the church, but mostly I was raised by a mother that ruled the home and her children in every way possible and she adored my oldest brother, and that adoring attitude was passed along to my older sisters, and thereby me and my younger brother. There is no way to convey the damage he has done to me and the manner in which he accomplished this damage.

I determined on Christmas 2013 that I needed to not reply to his emails, to not send birthday and Christmas cards--that it was time to cut him out entirely out of my life. Nearly 13 years ago he attacked me in a most unnerving and brutal way in a phone call to my desk while I was at work. I tried to move on, forgive, invite him and his wife to visit, etc. But his behavior after that attack was one of no remorse and no effort at repairing the relationship. He hasn't called me in six years. He didn't acknowledge me at my mother's funeral. I asked my sisters and younger brother to not share any details about my life and my family's life with him. (Both parents have passed away.) Those wishes are respected by all but one--a sister--who shares with him details from the books I'm reading to my family news of becoming a first time grandparent this fall. I tried to reason with her, asking again that she not share my life, reviewed his behavior towards me, etc. I don't really have any hope she will comply with my wishes going forward. I've about given up any kind of relationship with my siblings.

Then add in my resignation from the church in 2013 and disclosing that information to my sisters and younger brother--and I am the one sibling with the issues.

Thanks for posting, Cheryl. The replies have been enlightening too.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2015 08:19PM by justarelative.

Cheryl, you responded to a post above by saying:

>> Your definition of forgiveness sounds empty of meaning.
With no relationship to the meaning most people see in it. <<

I think your (maybe Mormon based?) definition of forgiveness is the one that might be a little off. In the thread the other day, I was speaking of forgiveness in a therapy context. Have you never been to cognitive-behavioural therapy? Forgiveness therapy is employed by thousands of behavioural psychologists, and is recognized as a valid technique for regaining positive emotional health. Many books have been written on the subject, and the subject has been included within books written by psychology and psychiatric professionals.

Through my experiences with several cognitive-behavioural therapists, I have come to understand that Forgiveness therapy has nothing to do with walking up to grandpa and telling him it was alright that he took me to be raped in front of groups of spectators, and can we be friends again? That is an ignorant view of the therapy and its methods and aims. Instead, it is to be understood as a cognitive repair technique, which usually happens solely within the mind and heart of the patient, in order to remove debilitating grief and rage. It usually involves coming to a place of accepting that the abuser was just an idiot human being, that it happened, and that the wound no longer needs to be carried around in the form of an ‘identity’. Anger, rage and resentment can have severely detrimental psychological as well as physiological effects. Sometimes it gets to the point where it is just not worth it anymore. Like, say, when the abuser is dead and will never be brought to justice.

Realize too, that cognitive therapists recognize that many individuals are unwilling and unable to avail themselves of this technique …ever, and that is ok too. There is a certain stage of the recovery process where the wounds of abuse are an important part of the process. No one in therapy is ever ‘forced’ to do anything. This is therapy, not Mormonism. The reason I am even bothering to post this is because I don’t wish to see a valid technique, used by cognitive therapists worldwide, discounted and misrepresented. This therapy is one of the techniques that kept me from leaping off a bridge years ago, and I am thankful for it.

If a person sees no validity for themselves in forgiveness therapy, then fine, don’t engage in it. However, don’t discount the sharing of such a valuable process for those of us who have been to therapists, and have found it helpful. I simply wanted to share, in that thread the other day, about something that worked for me, a survivor of horrific, seemingly unforgivable abuse myself. I chose to share in case someone else might find it useful. I didn’t expect to be ridiculed for it, or misrepresented.

Here are a few quotes to ponder from some professionals in the field:

“Forgiveness is giving up hurt and anger that you may be entitled to have and hold. Forgiveness does not imply denying that you were mistreated, or forgetting your pain. It does not mean that you condone being hurt, or that you will stick around to let yourself get hurt by the same boss or friend that just finished hurting you.” - Dr. David L. Kupfer, Ph.D.

“Forgiveness is the path from hurt to healing, from anger to peace. Why forgive people who have truly hurt you and treated you unfairly? Because forgiving them will make you healthy and happy. Letting go of resentment is good for your heart, both emotionally and physiologically. Forgiveness can be taught in the context of cognitive-behavioral therapy.” - Dr. David L. Kupfer, Ph.D.

“Anger and the wish to punish a family member for past grievances often remain resistant to the most useful cognitive-behavioral approaches. Enright and Fitzgibbons show how forgiveness can help finalize past resentment and allow people to lay their past grievances to rest.” - Aaron T. Beck MD


Me again with a final thought; my experience with forgiveness came from therapists, not from Buddha. If someone reflects back and sees an old quote that seems to reflect what they gained through their therapist, then don’t misrepresent that by mixing up the chicken with the egg. I didn’t learn about forgiveness therapy from Buddha, but thanks for implying that and then mocking me for it (or maybe that was someone else).

I’ll close with this quote, because I like to keep a sense of humour about my recovery from abuse. So, let’s all have a big laugh about it shall we?

“Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.” – guess who …Buddha. LOL

Well said, torturednevermo.

Whether with an assist from therapy or on one's own, forgiveness is the final act of proving who's in charge of my life, them or me.

JAR

I don't agree.

Excusing or brushing aside evil is not a requirement to being free of it.

Oh, I see. We're talking past each other due to different definitions of forgiveness.

No, no, of course you are right. One should not (never?) excuse evil or brush it aside. And maybe you have good reason to define forgiveness in that way. Perhaps that's classic Mormon forgiveness? I don't know, I'm a nevermo. Just a relative.

But taking steps to let go of (or purge out) the toxins that can and often do build up inside when one is seriously wronged, that is healthy. And part of what this board is all about.

with the greatest of respect for you and your contributions here,

JAR