so i've been having continuous issues with my dad, he'll find out i watched some porn and have me admit to masturbating, then he'll lecture me about how its addictive and a poison, get emotional when I just sit there stony faced, and try to force me to talk to him about it. i'm past talking to him because he always uses the same old sorry excuses for arguments and whenever i say anything to make an even remotely intelligent rebuttal he'll tell me how delusional and stupid I am, he only sees me as a porn addict (I will only use it occasionally for some stress relief) and never tries to see me as a developing and learning human being. Well, both of us pretty much had enough a few days ago and before I could finally give him a piece of my mind for being such a short minded bigot, he threatened to kick me out of the house! over PORN, and ANTI-MORMONISM, and my own ATHEISM. please understand i'm great in my house, I do what i'm told for the most part, I take care of my five younger siblings, i'm great with the youngest (two years old) I occasionally make meals and I shovel the driveway, I don't get in trouble, most parents would probably think i'm a great kid, but over these fundamental differences in philosophy my dad is now considering kicking me out to the streets to 'humble' me before i'm even sixteen.
I've now agreed to read his lds porn recovery books (he had the same damn problem years ago) and to be a good mormon kid until I can leave the house but I have other plans now. I can't keep living in this environment so i'm going to pretend while i can that the bullshit is actually sinking in until I have a job and a car then I'm going to probably look for another place to live. I was wondering if anyone had any advice or someone to persuade/dissuade me to/to not do this. I cant keep living with those people, they have no rational hold on anything and are brainwashed to a higher degree than I thought possible. The irrational limitations and brainwashed indoctrination is finally too much for me, and the physical abuse that my parents put me through when I was young is also a factor. any ideas/alternatives/insights anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2015 04:08PM by secularhumanguy.

It's illegal to kick out minor children. Your parents could face serious legal consequences if they ever do.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2013/05/can-parents-kick-teens-out-of-their-home.html

Don't leave, or you're the one that is in trouble. Like it or not, your parents are responsible for you, and 15 is way too young to be on your own.

Talk to other adults in your life who you can trust, particularly with your school counselor who can give you informed guidance. Nobody on this board is qualified to tell you what you should do since we're far removed from the situation, but there are meny good resources you can turn to for help. Particularly try to learn good communication and interpersonal skills that will serve you well throughout your life.

Actually, I've had many experiences that sound very similar to yours.

First, I'm really sorry this is happening. I didn't wake up until after I'd left home. I can only imagine what it's like while you're still in the middle of it.

The church mindset of pornography is one of obsession, and they associate 'any' with 'most' and 'some' with 'all'---in a TBMs head, it has been my experience, you cannot have any association with pornography, our own genetalia, or even a desire for privacy without their leaping to the conclusion that you are a nascent anti-Christ, a hedonist, and an irredeemable sociopath.

First of all, remember that such things are not true. I have found, and still often find, that things I know to be the purest idiocy sink deep into my soul if uttered by my father. Such things can pass into our psyches undetected, so it's critical (or it was for me) to get your head clear by talking to someone you can trust implicitly (a therapist, in my case, though a good friend got me thru many years first)

Please watch how you talk about and to yourself, though---in your post you said your father had "the same damn problem," when clearly you don't think porn *is* a problem. Go ahead and read anything you like, an only you can decide whether just going along with it is the best course, but at least on the inside, fight to be you.

You said you were young, yes? That sucks, because people are going to doubt your opinions and resolve because of it. To a small extent they're coming from the right place---hormones screw us all up royally---but you stay you, and find a vent. (See? Even I can't resist doubting your resolve due to your age, and I'm on *your* side. How much more then people who disagree?)

For early liberation, I advise obtaining a well-paying skill: I was able to buy a small condo in college, and pay my tuition, because I'd learned to draft.

Hope something in there helps

For now, try to learn to go with the flow in matters where your family/father can see what you do. In private, you can be more genuinely yourself. Once you are 18, you can make your own choices.

The best plan is to get yourself set up as well as you can, to be able to be independent once you can legally go out on your own. Get a job and save every penny that you can. Do not put the money in a bank account that your parents can access. Find a way to keep it available only to you. If there are any household skills that you lack, learn them now. It will make it much easier once you are on your own.

I think that you already know this, but just in case, the things that your father believes are a "problem" are very normal things for your age. And older. Occasionally looking at pictures is not anything like a pornography addiction. An addiction is something which takes over your life and does real harm. Looking at pictures and masturbating is something that is not out of the norm for human development. You only need to worry about it if it causes a problem.

If not, then just be sensible and discreet. It may seem to be shocking to some people, especially TBM fathers, but you don't really have to tell him what you do in private. Sex is a private matter, and it is not anyone else's business, as long as you do nothing which affects/harms anyone else.

This may be difficult to negotiate, if your father insists on questioning you about your private activities. It is a serious thing to advise someone not to tell the truth when questioned. I don't have a good answer for that. The problem comes from the Mormon belief that those in authority can misuse their authority to control others in every detail of their lives. Also, they believe that lying is fine for those in authority, but wrong for those who are not in authority. In a prefect world, no-one would need to lie. And, of course, fathers would not subject their children to invasive questions about things that do not matter in the least.

Anybody got a solution for that?

Sorry to hear about this, shg. You are a great kid. Anyone your age who has the integrity and diligence to look into mormonism and accept it as a fraud while living in a TBM family is a person I admire. Consider yourself lucky that you've put yourself on the right track now, before wasting your time on a mission and before getting married. Even adults get stuck in family situations with TBMs. I am, since my wife and one of my children are still in the church. What you are going through is exactly how the cult intended it. They want it to be painful to leave the church so that people are afraid to do it. In time, this is going to work out.

Maybe you can try something like this with your parents:

- ask them about what they think trust is and why it is important to relationships.

- point out that trust is based on more than whether people are telling the truth. It's about safety. Can I trust the other person to not hurt me? If not, I have to take a step back from that person. I can only open myself up to them to the degree that I feel safe.

- talk about what type of behaviors could erode trust. Lying, abuse, shaming, controlling, violations of privacy, breaking commitments, apathy towards the other person, failure to listen, unfair treatment, ridicule, different world views, manipulation, exploitation, etc. Anything that says another person cannot accept you just as you are.

- point out that there is a breakdown of trust going on in the relationship with them and that it's a two way street.

- ask if they want you to trust them, because if they do, then maybe you guys need to talk about which of those trust eroding behaviors is causing you not to trust them. Tell them how their behavior is hurting you and say how you're going to have to withdraw and not be your true self around them. How you will have to look for the emotional support we all need from other sources if you can't get it from them. It's not a threat, it's just that you need support. You would like their emotional support, but if they can't give it, you will have to get it from somewhere.

- ask if they would trust you more if you pretended to go along with how they view the world, or if you openly expressed your thoughts and feelings. Which would be healthier? How can they expect you to be authentic in a threatening environment?

- you might ask how serious they are about kicking you out. Tell them it feels to you more like an extreme manipulation to control your behavior than something they would actually do. And that is because it is illegal to abandon a minor. Tell them you asked around and found that out.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2013/05/can-parents-kick-teens-out-of-their-home.html

- ask what they think would really be the best way to handle the situation with the porn (this can go different ways depending on whether they know you don't share their mormon beliefs or not). How can both sides work it out in a way that builds trust? I think it's best to just come clean and tell them what you don't believe anymore. "I want to tell you about how my beliefs are evolving as I get more information. Can I trust you to handle that?"

- try to do all of this in a laid-back, non-threatening way. Not accusing them, just telling them how you feel about it. If you see them getting defensive, say that you are not blaming anyone, just telling them how you feel. "We have a problem because of how I am feeling about xxxxx, and I wonder if you can help me with that." Keep reminding them you are not blaming them for anything.

- use notes if you have to, to remember everything you want to say.

- don't have any expectations that this discussion will improve anything. If they aren't even capable of having the conversation, write them a note and tell them how much it hurts that they can't even discuss the issues with you. TBMs go crazy thinking they are losing loved ones. It will be a great outcome if they can come to terms with the fact that you aren't going to follow the path they have in mind for you.

These are just the ideas I had. Ignore it if you don't think it fits your situation. Best of luck, guy. Sexual attractions and masturbation are normal. It is the demonizing of what is natural that is unhealthy. If you are going to really read the porn recovery book(s) you may want to balance that, privately, with some reading from a different point of view.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2015 05:27PM by jefecito.

Avoid any churchy discussions and don't tell any Mormons how you really feel, or what your are doing.

Your masturbation or sex life are none of their business either,keep your thoughts to yourself and don't "confess" anything.

Concentrate on getting out at age 18, either through college, work or the military.
The next three years will pass quickly, especially when working toward a goal.

I was once told I look at anti mormon stuff to justify and feel guilt free for looking at porn. What porn had to do with the truthfulness of the church is beyond me.

I would keep your own counsel when it comes to private matters. And whether or not you masturbate is really no one else's business but your own. A good all-purpose reply is, "I don't have a problem with it."

One thing that teens don't realize -- being on your own is *expensive.* A minimum wage job won't cut it when it comes to fully supporting yourself. So right now your job is to get the best grades you possibly can and to think about your future. Select a job that pays well that suits your talents and abilities, and think about how you will get education or training to get that job. Stay home until you graduate from high school and then go to college, join the military, or do something like AmeriCorps. Although three years or so sounds like a long time, it really isn't. It will fly by.

I would get a part time job right now if you are able, and start saving your money. You will need a substantial nest egg to get established in life.

Take heart that one day you will be a fully independent adult. Start planning for that day. Keep posting and let us know how things are going.

Emancipation can be an option, but probably not yet. Not yet 16 is very young to try to be supporting yourself entirely because of labor laws that restrict your working hours.
Get jobs where you can, save your money, keep your head down for now, authoritarian parents will only try harsher and harsher tactics if you try to stand up to them.

That said, you need to find some services for youth, contact numbers and places to go for assistance. If they threaten to kick you out again, call that bluff. They need counselling. Likely the only thing available will be LDS services, but that can be better than nothing. Your whole family dynamic needs some help.

And don't admit to masturbating anymore. Surprise, you are cured of the problem! (Because it is not a problem.)
Learn how to use 'in private' browsing windows, most browsers provide this option now, although if he is checking the log on the router, that won't do any good.

Keep coming here and venting! I didn't have this resource when I was a fledgling atheist stuck in a nazi mormon control freak household. I look forward to future updates. :)
Tons of help will be available to you the second you turn 18. We have resources to help kids in households like yours, but legally we can't do anything until you turn 18. In the meantime, work a job to keep you away from your parents more, and save that money!

Like WinksWinks says, just don't admit to masturbating. A truth I learned from a comedy movie years ago was just deny-deny-deny. "Nope. Sorry. Must've been someone else." (Then learn to manipulate the damn web browser, for God's sake!!)

I think that in this case, turn-about is fair play. Look, Mormon leaders lie to us. They do it with a plain face, knowing perfectly well what they are doing. They lead LDS men and women astray and cause big rifts in family life. To them, you, your life, and your privacy mean nothing. So cop a new outlook. Relax. Smile to your neighbor at church as you surf the web. Turn down requests and callings. Sing along with the hymns only if you want to. If you have to talk to your bishop, divulge nothing. Zippo. Smile, be nice, talk, but learn to say a whole lot of nothing. Most of all, stand for your privacy. If a bishop ever asks you to tell him something, smile and repeat, "I'm not comfortable with this kind of invasive questioning. Sorry. I believe it's wrong."

If your bishop or possibly your father asks, "Do you masturbate?" just turn it around: "What do you think? Do you masturbate?"

People masturbate--men (all of them, your bishop and stake president included), women (most), and virtually all children in some form or another. Many animals masturbate. I've seen bonobos (a type of ape) masturbate each other, just for pleasure. It's also called "sexual development." We can choose to develop normally or abnormally. Choose normally.

Your dad needs to know that the entire medical community considers masturbation to be a normal part of human sexuality, as long as it is not practiced excessively or under inappropriate circumstances. If you are an adult, your doctor probably will not ask you about masturbation unless you bring up the subject. This is because masturbation is a form of normal sexual behavior, and it is not usually a symptom of illness. In adult patients, doctors usually see masturbation as a healthy, acceptable way to relieve sexual tension, especially when a patient's sexual partner is ill, absent, or otherwise uninterested in regular sexual contact.

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/masturbation-guide

So, you're a normal kid. Even if you didn't have the church issues with your parents, there would be days when you wanted to leave home. That's normal. Unfortunately the economy and the employment prospects for undereducated people make it really important that you stay at home and stay in school. The best way for you to get out of your current situation is to study hard and get into a college that is not in the town where you now live. In the meantime, you might have to go along to get along. Your mind and your body belong to you. Your have a right to private thoughts and actions. Just keep them private.

I recommend that you avoid porn, particularly if you are watching it in a way that you can not keep private. Even as an adult, you will need to control the urge to watch porn. Employers won't allow it.

Do not run away. It is dangerous to be a homeless teen. Do not accuse your parents of abuse if they are not currently abusing you. You do not want to become a ward of the state. There are wonderful foster parents and there are terrible foster parents, good group homes and terrible group homes and you as a run away would not be the one choosing where you would be placed. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

I know that I haven't told you anything that you wanted to hear, but I've given you the advice that I would give my own grandson. Which begs the question, if things get really bad, do you have a soft hearted granny who would take you in?

Good luck to you. I wish I could give you a hug.

just remember.,,people tend to be hypersensitive to their own pent up issues.

any scare tactics are being used to try and control you.

i'm really sorry theytreat you like that. Do you have a safe place to go live if its pushed to that point?

thanks for the advice, I don't see this as an issue except when my dad makes it one, me and my dad are stuck in completely different viewpoints. he's in control though, so I have to live with it. I told my parents that I was an unbeliever almost a year ago, thinking there was a chance that they would be understanding and compromising. I've regretted that decision since the day I tried that.
My parents weren't extremely abusive when I was young but I did go through mild to moderate physical and verbal abuse on a daily basis, and that combined with the messages of love I would hear every sunday created a state of constant psychological torture, I was always hoping that they would just listen to the words said at the pulpit but now I know it was a lot more complicated than that. I haven't exactly been straight with my parents and have lied enough times that my dad is constantly suspicious of me so I can't deny it all the time, and on the issue of using incognito tabs and stuff like that, they already blocked those somehow and he caught on to my use of proxy servers. I don't currently have a solid plan for if he does decide to kick me out but I think I could find a place to live if it comes to that as I have many friends who know i'm a non believing mormon.
I say that I think I should leave because as a part of me and my dad's agreement I will have to change my point of view so that I believe porn is evil, he wants to manipulate me so that my very point of view is what he wants! and he thinks if he can twist my mind enough with fear then i'll be a perfect believing mormon again! this act of violating my very intelligence and sanity is the final straw, I can't live with someone as twisted as that anymore and I know he'll never attempt to understand me and i don't know what to do anymore, so I cut myself last night for the first time in months. I really need some sort of alternative



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 01:26PM by secularhumanguy.

Hey, do some really, really, deep breathing meditations. Long, really slow, really deep breathing …for like 11, or 22, or 33 minutes. You will release as many endorphins in your brain as cutting does …without all the little scars. It’s actually good for you, too. Look at the tip of your nose while you do it too ... I'm serious, it helps release the endorphins.

Try that as an alternative, and I am sorry your dad gives you so much grief.

It also breaks my heart that you discovered that cutting is a strategy that gives you relief when you are in pain. I am not going to offer advice on alternative ways to cope. You have discovered that cutting works for you. Yes, it does work. And yes, hard as hell to stop or to not shift to other kinds of NSSI behaviors (for the rfm'ers: NSSI is Non-suidcial self-harm-google it).

I will now speak to you as I would if you were a friend of one of my own teenagers that I know well and I saw signs of cutting. First, I am worried about your saftey re infections and scaring (I know that if you are engaging in NSSI it is very unlikely that you are suicidal). Second, I am worried about your long term mental health and developing of functional coping strategies.

So for the first. Do you have access to help with caring for your wounds? Besides infections, you have about 12 hours if you 'cut deep' to get medical treatment suffienct to avoid or minimize scaring.

Second. Are you presently getting any professional help for NSSI. Do your parents know that are cutting or have cut in the past, and what is going on with them re this?

If you don't have help you need to get it. If you can't access it through your parents directly you should tell your family physician or school nurse/councilor about it and ask for help. They should get you into a situation where you and your family can deal with this.

If you get help for NSSI it might also provide a means to work out the religon and other conflicts with you parents with medical professional helping to mediate this. This might lead to the chance for you to construct a more healthy (mentally healthy) situation in the home that is mutually worked out with your parents. If you can DO NOT agree to a church services type of mental health professional.

Finally, when you feel the impulse to cut come to this forum right away and post something like "I can't take it and need to cut, help!" This is a caring and responsive place.

You are worthwhile. Accept that you are 15 and only human. Don't blame yourself. Honestly, I think there is more than church issues at play here. Take care.

If you have not already gone to see your school counselor, then you need to see her. Ask your nicest teacher for a pass to see the counselor. If your teacher needs convincing, tell her that you are a "cutter" and need help. That should do the trick. The school counselor can see you for one session without parental permission. After that, she will do everything in her power to get your parents on board with continued counseling sessions.

A good friend of mine was a cutter. She got help and went on to live a wonderful life. She has a great career, has a husband and family, and takes in lots of foster kids. You will have a wonderful life as well. But -- get help now! This is a teacher talking. :) We care about you and want you to be happy and to succeed in life.

Take action and do check back in often.

I agree with this. You've got to talk to a professional. I don't know what state you're in, but there is some child-oriented social service in every state devoted to just a problem like yours--resolving parent-child issues before the child gets hurt, and running away at 15 counts as hurt. It is true that parents cannot "kick out" their minor children for being apostates, masturbators, or anything else. Your dad's view that it's his way or the highway, and he's willing to take it to the mat, is precisely the kind of situation that social services can handle.

Go talk to a school counselor or call a hot-line. You need to get professionals involved in this situation.

You're a cutter, and your dad is worried about some porn??? You should be in therapy. He should also be in therapy. His priorities are a mess.

You don't have to believe anything, just avoid talking about it with Mormons.

You only have 36 months or less until you are 18

Keep your grades up and use the time until then to plan out what you can do.

Looking back at my abusive parents and home life as a kid, my big regret is that I didn't explore ways out. In the sixties, a minor really needed a home, and I needed someone to take me in. But I was socially isolated, and autistic, so I stuck it out. Ended up getting tossed out at 18 anyway.

Do you have friends, or families who might take you in? Get a job part-time, pay rent, finish school, then become self-supporting. It's very hard at your age, I know, to pull this off, but the alternative is to stay with the Mos. I think you can find a way to stay home until 18, playing a waiting game, but if youn really can't wait, then I say, get out.

Are there any community resources for youth at risk that could help you find a placement? Maybe a foster family?

Don't let them scar you for life.

Talk to your school counselor about getting yourself on a graduation track to get you into college the minute you're out of high school. Be sure you're working toward something that will make a good living once you're out of college. Also, ask about scholarships and grants. Try to get as much financial backing as possible. The more you have, the less you'll be dependent on parents in the future. I wish someone would have told me I had options. Nobody did, and I lived in poverty for a very long time. Two years of community college could have spared me that.

A lot of kids turn their noses up at community colleges, but they don't realize how much they offer. There are many things that you can do without being in college for 6 to 8 years, and coming out in debt.

my parents don't know about the cutting, I don't know how to take action, either by leaving or by getting help from social services. They've created this crushing anxiety and I don't feel like I can do anything to directly contradict them but if I don't act then i'll be forced into the waiting game because they'll pull me out of school and be keeping watch over me 24/7. that means no more friends, no more concerned teachers and no more rfm to vent on. without these crucial sources of support i don't know what i'll do. they want to turn the house and the family into a prison. I cant spend two and a half more years in this hell, i need to leave one way or an other



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2015 12:45PM by secularhumanguy.

I suggest taking the advice that "summer" suggested in her post above as the next step. Get yourself to a school councilor. The poster ‘Summer’ indicates that you can get one visit without parental notification. Do it today if you can, otherwise tomorrow.

This is what someone who wants to be respected as an adult by their parents does. Part of taking control of your life and becoming a mature adult is being able to admit to yourself that you are only human and as such can't handle everything on your own very well. I know that taking a step to see a councilor is scary as hell. You are probably thinking of all kinds of ‘catastrophic outcomes’ that will happen. But ‘catastrophic outcomes’ tend to be extremely unlikely. Trust me on this.

Most parents of teenagers know little about cutting (NSSI). They will be shocked to find out, and most likely they will find out at some point. But perhaps shocked enough hit the pause button on the church stuff to address this and the other issues this in a way that is more productive for you and for them. A good outcome would be you getting treated for cutting (NSSI) and likewise having a professional therapist mediate a real conversation between you and your parents on how to move forward.

Cutting and other NSSI is out there in teenage life a lot more than most parents and perhaps teenagers realize. Likewise, I expect your school councilor has experience or access to it to help you take the next step. Take advantage of this resource.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2015 06:42PM by mannaz.

While I get that he doesn't want you to bring porn into his house and he has a right to exclude from his house porn any way he describes it, you should simply refuse to discuss your private life, period.

He has no right to intrude in your privacy that way (of course if you are doing things that bring it to his attention, like not throwing away your trash and washing your own laundry, or using his computer or phones, then you have to fix that).

He can threaten to kick you out, but in most states, he will have to engage the regular eviction process to do so. You don't have to leave simply because he tells you too.

So simply follow the rules that involve other people, and refuse to discuss the issues or rules that he has no business imposing. Repeat as often as necessary, "I know you want the best for me, and I appreciate it. I am not discussing this with you."

And yes, you should move out. Your choices make it impossible for them to have quiet enjoyment of their own home. Unreasonable or not, it is the only home they have. So you need to find somewhere else to live.

Go to an adult whom you trust. Ask them for help in:
1) getting counseling to help you deal with your pain.
2) finding a safe place to go to if you need to leave your house, even if it is a temporary refuge.
3) counseling to help you identify pathways forward in life where you can learn and grow and support yourself.

When we have identified possible choices, we don't feel trapped even if things are tough at the time. We can accept the possibility that there is a future for us after all that might not be all that bad. We are not without hope.

You sound like a good kid. Your parents may not be bad people, but it sounds like they are misguided.

There are good people on this board who have experienced many of the same things as you. They are here for you.