Is this just folklore, or what? Had a discussion with a TBM friend who thought this teaching does not come from a prophet.

She said her understanding is that people are sent where Heavenly Father needs them to go, and that then people have their free agency to find the truth.

I know it is all malarky, but curious what you learned in the church/cult.

This belief caused me a lot of grief. My home life was verbally and emotionally abusive, an alcoholic dad threatening us kids with a gun here and there when he was drunk and mean enough and a mom in love with this monster, just living from moment to moment. She thought each tomorrow he would love her enough to change.

Thanks to this teaching, I asked myself constantly what had I done to end up in this house, plus, how could a HF who was supposed to love me, send me here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 02:18AM by presleynfactsrock.

You just got seriously unlucky in the parent lottery.

I hope you have/can leave it behind and build the kind of family that a child would be lucky to be born into.

I know it is not easy at all but do know several people who have done just that.

I am constantly amazed at the amazing people they are, compared to their role models during childhood. (I suspect they have their demons but they aren't repeating history.)

I got my patriarchal blessing after I'd been married & had two kids already. I was deeply troubled that my blessing said I was blessed to be a mother and Heavenly Father only sent "choice" spirits to the best of homes and we had such a home. I thought of all the people I knew who were amazing people that grew up in abusive homes--my father included. I definitely knew the patriarch was just an old man spewing out nonsense after that. I had also heard numerous times at church that God chooses each family depending on premortal righteousness but somehow those comments always lumped the most righteous people in the spirit world into the "best" homes or the "worst" homes depending on the point of the lesson.

Whether or not a formal TSCC teaching, I've known many TBMs who firmly believe that they were blessed to be BIC as a reward for their religious actions in the pre-existence.

Templar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whether or not a formal TSCC teaching, I've known
> many TBMs who firmly believe that they were
> blessed to be BIC as a reward for their religious
> actions in the pre-existence.


Yep. My patriarchal blessing says I was one of the Noble and Great ones in the pre-existence, placed in a home with the gospel and born in the covenant.

I knew a TBM who followed the profit in all things. Including marrying too young and having more children than they could handle. She confessed to me that she was often so overwhelmed that she would be verbally abusive to her kids.

But! That was okay because they picked her to be their mother in the preexistence and knew what they were getting!

My patriarchal blessing states, "because of your faithfulness in the pre-existence you were given the privilege of being born in a home where the gospel is loved and where it is lived."

The Mormon apostle Mark E. Petersen gave a talk at Brigham Young University in 1954 concerning race relations. Here are select parts of that talk:
“Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our WORTHINESS OR LACK OF IT in the pre-existent life?...can we account in any other of way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest AFRICA, or in flood-ridden CHINA, or among the starving hordes of INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. THESE ARE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with SINNERS AND SAINTS, rewarding all according to their deeds....

Thanks for your posts - some interesting info shared. Mind-boggling to hear the different twists on just this one subject, and Mark E. Petersen minced no sentiments on the subject, did he, drawing a very elitist picture.

Annieg, appreciate your kind and thoughtful comments. "You just got seriously unlucky in the parent lottery". I was able to climb out of the hole that hit in my late twenties thanks to the help finally of a therapist that knew the tole alcoholism takes on kids. But first I went to three therapists who were not knowledgeable in this area (I'm an old-as-the-hills senior, so way back when) in the least. One commented in a condescending manner that I had it all, and what was my beef? (bet he was Mormon)

With the other two, I basically sat in silence staring at the wall the entire session (oh, so long and embarrassing) because they wanted me to tell them why I was sad and depressed, and talk about my feelings. Well, I had learned at home to stuff my feelings somewhere I'll leave unsaid, and not talk, because when we tried, either no one listened as they were too busy with their demons or told us we better shut the fuck up like yesterday. So these sessions never worked, only made me and hubby poor and frustrated.

I've always been a reader, was devouring books on depression when I could muster the energy and time between taking care of young kids, and I luckily discovered one of the first books written about how alcoholism affects the children in the family. When the author started describing the varying characteristics similarly held in common by alcoholic children, such as one child might be the deliquient, another the "mother" of the group, one quiet and studious (me), I had to read no further. Crying, I knew that the author was describing me and my four siblings, saying that in a good majority of the cases the adult begins to have issues at the very age I was. She became my savior, and I am so grateful to her. From this point on, I made progress.

The church/cult had become my model for a family when I was a teen - a temple marriage, finding a man who DID NOT TOUCH THAT NASTY ALCOHOL and having lots of children would GUARANTEE a ticket to happiness and the CK reward with life eternal. Here was my ticket to have a happy family!

Needless to say it this was not the solution. Maybe if I had received some decent education at school concerning sex ed, marriage and effective, healthy parenting, at least some of the heartache could have been minimized. Education in these areas is still so needed in Utah in 2015.

Whew ---got carried away telling my story, but I did so intentionally in hopes that there might be something here that resonates with one of you readers that might be of help. Adult Children of Alcoholism is now a recognized diagnosis

I do appreciate this board and you many friends who post. So much has been of help to me. To this day I still am more at home writing than talking because of my home life so THANK YOU.

"Needless to say it this was not the solution. Maybe if I had received some decent education at school concerning sex ed, marriage and effective, healthy parenting, at least some of the heartache could have been minimized. Education in these areas is still so needed in Utah in 2015."

So glad you said this,presleynfactsrock. If this information had been presented to you in a non religious factual way, it could have given you--no all of us--some very important tools and information that we all needed desperately in our early years.

Just saying "No" and "Don't" and "Heavenly Father doesn't want you to do that" is NOT an education and does not facilitate clear thinking, but does inform your life with a very skewed view of things.

If you were white, American, BIC you were the top of .01%. It was very bigoted, narcissistic teaching. In fact MorgCorp even had two heavily produced musicals based on this principal "Saturday's Warrior" and "My Turn on Earth". These were produced by BYU then produced locally through out the world by different stakes as roadshows. You can watch versions of it on Youtube. After the late 80's though it was downplayed, and sorta swept under the rug?!?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhziCBr8MPI (MTOE) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK95SFQ236g (Saturday's Warrior).

Now day's it's "God's Army" and other LDS films.

In Mormon theology, if God is fair and He sends His children based on their past, then He sends His strongest spirit children to the most desperate of circumstances, not His weakest ones.

The essay on race though debunks the idea that was once taught that blacks had been fence sitters in the preexistence. There are scriptures about some having been chosen for specific roles. There is no way at all that most of God's children could have been fore-ordained for specific roles, places of birth, earthly circumstances, because that would totally prevent agency from having any role at all.

Bottom line is that --- presuming belief in Mormon doctrine --- no one is here to fail, not you, not anyone. You are fully able to become everything good you want to become, no matter where you start. And God also factors in the impact of your circumstances that you cannot control in His acceptance of your personal best.

"He sends His strongest spirit children to the most desperate of circumstances"

Then, after relegating them to undeserved hellholes, still expects their love, worship and gratitude, and can't understand it when they turn away and lose all belief instead. But that doesn't stop him from blaming and condemning them anyway because damn it, he wants that praise.

"no one is here to fail, not you, not anyone"

So it's never his fault, even though he digs a hole for his "strongest children" so deep that they can never climb out of it. And when they inevitably fail, or in the worst cases, are completely overcome and commit suicide, he gets to blame them for that too. Guess they weren't as strong as he thought.

Mormon doctrine is BS and Mormon God is a sadistic dumbass who absolutely plays favorites.

What kind of church teaches that kids are responsible for being abused, then when they grow up, they say it's still the kid's fault for believing the former untrue teaching!!

Dirty tricks coming and going, I'd say!

There's a place in the BoM that basically says this. I an't recall the exact wording. I think it's in Alma, but not sure. I'm not too into read that book.

I kept asking "God" why my life was such a shitty mess and did I REALLY choose this life? After I'd spent several months/years walking and ranting and raving at God over what happened to my life, I realized that NO, I didn't choose this.

I read an article once about a woman whose child died. Everyone was telling her that her child died for a reason. She said it took her a while to realize it was UNACCEPTABLE that her child had died and once she realized that, she was able to heal.

It was such a huge relief to me when I realized that it was bullshit that I had chosen the life I had. I think it also helped me make peace with my ex.

Not only do mormons teach this, but I just hate people who say, "Everything happens for a reason."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 03:39PM by cl2.

Go online and find a copy of ""THE SEER """ By Orsen Pratt ..Every other chapter is about the placement of souls on earth from the preexistence, according to their level of worthiness . By the way every other chapter is on Polygamy --So be warned !!!!

JB

...to produce as many children as possible, so that "spirits" would be born into "righteous" Mormon families:

"I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty?—to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them.

"This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth."

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol4p51_57brighambloodatonement.htm

I needed this reference for a different subject topic for an IRL discussion I was having with a TBM about polygamy. One of their arguments was (and I also used to give this excuse) was so that more spirits could be born to righteous mormon families.

However, I later learned / realized when pointed out, that a monogamous woman in a monogamous marriage had more children than a woman in a polygamous marriage. i.e. monogamous woman would have 3 children, while polygamous woman would have 2 children; so if a man had three wives his marriage would produce 6 children; yet 3 monogamous couples would produce 9 children.

Brigham Young obviously couldn't do math. See this was why it was okay for the "old era" missionaries to talk women into leaving their gentile husbands, so that they could become plural wives of LDS husbands (e.g. Parley P. Pratt, etc...)

God, this sounds too much like the Hindu teachings of reincarnation, and the caste system...that people who live "worthy" lives, will get to live a more prosperous life in the next. Brahmins, the upper caste, are believed to have earned their status from living a "worthy" person in a past life..."pariahs" lived a less worthy life, and are punished for it in this one.

I would rather be a Hindu than a Mormon...at least their dietary laws make more sense...and I can have a good Chai tea, and still move up in the Heaven game...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 04:16PM by godtoldmetorun.