Ok, what was it? I've read the JD sermon over and over again, and I realize he's saying something that contradicts with everything I'd ever been taught.

It resembles nothing I read from Joseph Smith, or from anyone after Brigham Young.

But my question: what exactly was he saying? I don't get it. Adam is God? Does that mean Elohim came to perform the Fall as Adam? or does that mean Adam, who is Michael, replaces Elohim as the God we worship? Where is Christ in all this? What the F&$* was Bring'em Young smoking?

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, what was it? I've read the JD sermon over and
> over again, and I realize he's saying something
> that contradicts with everything I'd ever been
> taught.
>
> It resembles nothing I read from Joseph Smith, or
> from anyone after Brigham Young.
>
> But my question: what exactly was he saying? I
> don't get it. Adam is God? Does that mean Elohim
> came to perform the Fall as Adam? or does that
> mean Adam, who is Michael, replaces Elohim as the
> God we worship? Where is Christ in all this?
> What the F&$* was Bring'em Young smoking?

This is something I (nevermo) have always wondered about---especially after the videos came out...but even since, the online references to the Adam-God doctrine STILL have been incomprehensible to me.

Thank you for asking this, Cold-Dodger!!!

:)

It's so... vague. I remember when I learned it, even after I read the sermon, it was so incomprehensible, I didn't know where to put it on my shelf. For the longest time, I believed the tripe that Brigham Young HAD been misquoted after all. he can't have seriously taught this and expected people to believe it! But after I read the lecture at the veil...

From what I understood of the "adam-god" Doctrine (which was really very limited anyway) It kind of takes the names "Adam" and "Eve" and makes them titles. Therefore Adam is a title like God/Elohim/Jehovah/whatever.

Adam and Eve were the first parents who gave birth to the first people. And then left them here.

I would assume the fall came after and happened with the offspring, but I've never studied this doctrine myself and only listened to others talk about it while I was in the church.

See... It's so nebulous. It's an anomaly. I think that's why most mormons who firmly grasp the doctrine reject it, because it doesn't fit anywhere.

nonsequiter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From what I understood of the "adam-god" Doctrine
> (which was really very limited anyway) It kind of
> takes the names "Adam" and "Eve" and makes them
> titles. Therefore Adam is a title like
> God/Elohim/Jehovah/whatever.
>
> Adam and Eve were the first parents who gave birth
> to the first people. And then left them here.
>
> I would assume the fall came after and happened
> with the offspring, but I've never studied this
> doctrine myself and only listened to others talk
> about it while I was in the church.

Genetics has never been a subject I have understood, or even know hardly anything about...but what you're saying (in scientific terms)---I THINK!!!---is...

Biblically, "Adam" is the honorific title given to the actual ["modern," i.e., "US"] human being who scientifically is known as Y-chromosomal Adam...

...and also biblically, "Eve" is the honorific title given to the actual ["modern," i.e., "US"] human being who is known scientifically as Mitochrondial Eve...

Right???

In other words, SCIENTIFICALLY, the "modern"/OUR-kind-of-hominid human beings who all males living today are literally descended from on the one hand, and likewise, all females living today are literally descended from on the other hand.

And these two ACTUAL, once living, "modern" human beings were then named Adam and Eve in the Bible.

So: there is some kind of metaphorical parallelism between science and theology actually in play here...right??? Because scientists DO say that all present human females have a single maternal ancestor...and the same for males too.

[Critiques are gratefully accepted. :) ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 01:58AM by tevai.

That's a fascinating theory about Adam and Eve that deserves it's own thread.

It sounds cool, but it doesn't work. In the first place, there is not only one Adam and one Eve. All of us trace back to one "Eve," one woman, but only because the lines of the all the other women have since died out; not because there was only one woman at the time. Moreover, it's clear that we carry the genes of more than one species of hominid. Some of us are part Neanderthal and some of us, part Devonian. And that doesn't even consider that there is no identifiable break between our ancestors that were homo sapiens and those that would have been classed as a different species or different genus, family, etc. It just depends on how far back you go. You just end up calling all male things Adam and all female things Eve until you go back before sexual reproduction then livings things are all Adam'n Eves. Having two discrete individuals as the original parents will never make genetic sense.

It's all, really, as simple a story as simple can be. Like Santa Claus and all the elves laboring away at the North Pole making toys for all the good little girls and boys. It only stops making sense when the simple story is made to stand in context. Then the problems become endless: the North Pole? The North Pole isn't a place, it's a sheet of ice. How do you get materials to the North Pole to make toys out of? Electronics are made in China, are Chinese people elves? Does Santa outsource?

Adam-God isn't any more ridiculous than the story that replaced it. Surely, the biggest problem with the Adam story is that there was no Fall, no fault that needs Atonement. A God, composed of spirit, eats fruit for the practical necessity--according to some law of nature--of making material tabernacles for the spirit children that were already conceived in a former time. The only difference between Jesus and us is that Jesus' body came only from Mary and not from a human male (he was Mary's clone?). Since we've all got the same father and mother in spirit (we're all brothers and sisters of one Adam and one Eve, or God and one Eve or several), the difference between Jesus and us is only the merest of technicalities--whether a material father helped produce our body--what's all the sobbing over Jesus about? He's just another guy. Only begotten son? So what. Big deal. We're all equally spirit children of the same father and mother(s). The mortal body's a throwaway anyway.

Like all Mormonism, it doesn't bear thinking about too much because it was made up by mental midgets.

Just remember one thing: BY can be in error, but he will still be exalted. You won't. You've got to strive endlessly for your exaltation while desperately fearing it will be denied you, at all times. Obedience to us in power is the only way to quell your constant anxiety. Mormonism's like having an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

There are at least two Chromosomal Adams known.

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/adam-and-eve-the-ultimate-standoff-between-science-and-faith-and-a-contest/

is the more widely known chromosomal ancestry, but note the disparity in the dates between the Men and Women

This one below throws things into a new light entirely.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23240-the-father-of-all-men-is-340000-years-old.html#.UfF0m23GnRw&sref=https://delicious.com/stormwa/evolution

These are all REALLY good points, MCR...and much needed in this discussion...

Thank you for making them!!!

More of the complete insanity which is the CULT.

In my post Mormon studies of all things Mormon, I came across an excellent explanation of this Mormon doctrinal conundrum from H. Michael Marquardt.

In this post you will further understand why this is an important issue to understand from Mormonism’s past. It is a clear doctrinal shift which clearly shows the lack of inspiration and doctrinal clarity which is so prevalent in the Mormon church.

I hope you will enjoy discovering more about this doctrinal epiphany as I have.

Outline Relating to the LDS Temple Endowment and the Teachings of Brigham Young Creations Gods: On 8-9 March 1842 Joseph Smith worked on his Book of Abraham, "and they organized and formed, (that is, the Gods,) the heavens and the earth" (Times and Seasons 3 [15 March 1842]:720, words rearranged in Abraham 4:1). Who or how many Gods were involved is not known for sure. In the Nauvoo temple endowment as organized by Brigham Young the Gods were identified as three in number, that is, Eloheem [Elohim], Jehovah [also spelled Yahovah] and Michael. Michael had been previously identified by Joseph Smith as "Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days" (LDS D&C 27:11, added to early text in 1835).

Characters in the Nauvoo Temple
Nauvoo Temple Organization: 10-13 December 1845:
H. C. Kimball presides as Eloheem,
Orson Hyde as Jehovah and
George A. Smith as Michael
(Heber C. Kimball Journal kept by William Clayton, entry of 10 Dec. 1845, LDS archives)
The following persons officiating
Orson Hyde as Eloheem
Orson Spencer as Jehovah
George A Smith as Michael
later that day -
Heber C. Kimball acting as Eloheem
George A. Smith as Jehovah
Orson Hyde as Michael
(Heber C. Kimball Journal, entry of 11 Dec. 1845)
Pres[ident] Young acting as Eloheem
P.P. Pratt as Jehovah
Orson Hyde as Michael

"During the whole of the three days already spent in the endowment, President Brigham Young presided and dictated the ordinances and also took an active part in nearly every instance except when entirely overcome by fatigue through his constant labors to forward the work." (Ibid., 12 Dec. 1845) "Last evening an arrangement was made establishing better order in conducting the endowment. Under this order it is the providence of Eloheem, Jehovah and Michael to create the world . . ." (Ibid., entry of 13 Dec. 1845).

President Brigham Young's Teaching

Here we have the name/titles of the three creation Gods. Except for Michael the identities of Eloheem and Jehovah are not spelled out. Brigham Young mentioned, "It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael . . ." (Journal of Discourses 1:51, 9 April 1852).

In this same discourse (as published) President Brigham Young said:

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. . . . the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. . . . When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal" (Journal of Discourses 1:50, emphasis in original).

What we have are three creation Gods, Eloheim, Yahovah [spelled that way in the Endowment House records] and Michael. They are not the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) but a different trinity. They are like a LDS priesthood presidency of three (Elder's Quorum, High Priest Quorum, First Presidency, Mission Presidency, Temple Presidency). But there are now two trinities, the regular Father, Son and Holy Ghost and the creation Gods Eloheim, Yahovah (Jehovah) and Michael. Brigham Young taught that in order to create a world a man would have received his exaltation as a God. At a Special Conference held on 28 August 1852 he explained it as an important key to understanding:

After men have got their exaltations and their crowns--have become Gods, even the sons of God--are made Kings of kings and Lord of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you" (Journal of Discourses 6:275).

Some individual journals mention the teachings of Brigham Young about Adam/Michael but not all church members believed in Adam being God or understood what he was talking about. Apostle Orson Pratt opposed the doctrine from 1852-1868. It is evident that if the interpretation of the creation Gods was taught in the Nauvoo Temple like Brigham Young was explaining then Pratt probably would have accepted it. But it appears to have first been publicly taught in April 1852.

At the church conference held on 8 October 1854 Brigham Young preached a powerful discourse that was not published until the 1970s. Warren Foote recorded, "8th We went to conference again. President B. Young delivered an interesting discourse concerning Adam's being the father of our spirits as well as bodies" (Warren Foote Journal, 8 Oct. 1854, original in LDS archives, typed copy).

Joseph Lee Robinson also recorded what Brigham Young taught:

Oct. 6th. Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that received tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, or Eternal Father" (Joseph Lee Robinson Journal, 6-8 Oct. 1854, LDS archives, typed copy).

This "Discourse by Pres. Brigham Young Oct 8th 1854" (in LDS archives) has been published in an edited version. A copy is in The Essential Brigham Young (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1992), 86-103. A few quotes from the discourse:

But let us turn our attention to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits (93).

The God and Father [of] our Lord Jesus Christ is the Father of our spirits (94).

I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor to his calling and Priesthood; and obeyed his Master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to Immortality and Eternal Life (96).

Our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve (97).

Adam planted the Garden of Eden, and he with his wife Eve partook of the fruit of this Earth, until their systems were charged with the nature of Earth, and then they could beget bodies, for their spiritual children (98)

I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bear your spirit, you will see Mother Eve (99).

At the School of the Prophets in June 1871 President Brigham Young taught, "Elohim, Yahova & Michael, were father, Son and grandson. They made this Earth & Michael became Adam" (Joseph F. Smith Journal, 17 June 1871, LDS archives). So this would mean:

Elohim = Father of Yahovah
Yahovah = Son of Elohim
Michael = Grandson of Elohim = Adam = God the Father

Jesus would be the only begotten son of Michael/Adam. This may explain the words of President Young made in 1862:

The Father frequently came to visit his son Adam, and talked and walked with him; and the children of Adam were more or less acquainted with their Grandfather, and their children were more or less acquainted with their Great-Grandfather . . ." (Journal of Discourses 9:148, 12 Jan. 1862).

Brigham Young died in August 1877. At the October 1880 conference the Pearl of Great Price was accepted as the fourth standard work of the church. In various publications on gospel topics many writers emphasized that Adam and Eve were spirits before earth life. They used the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price (portion dictated in 1830) as their basis. This was more in line with Orson Pratt's position. There were church members who believed what President Young taught and others who had views based upon LDS scriptures. James E. Talmage wrote his book Articles of Faith which was published by the church.

Finally in June 1916 Talmage wrote the official statement on The Father and the Son which was accepted by the First Presidency and the Twelve as the position of the church on the Godhead. In essence Adam/Michael as God, the Father of our spirits and Father of Jesus Christ as taught by President Brigham Young was replaced by Elohim as God and Father. This statement has the following relating to Elohim:

The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race.

Prior to 1916 the interpretation of who the creation Gods were (as described by President Young) gradually changed. There was confusion over this issue for many years. It appears that during the Presidency of Joseph F. Smith the Michael in the temple endowment ceremony changed from being an exalted God who helped create the world to being a spirit personage "God." Elohim became God with Jesus Christ becoming the Jehovah creation God.

So part of Brigham Young's teaching expressed in his April 1852 discourse to priesthood members is rejected and part is accepted. At the time when President Young preached he was considered inspired. The conference minutes stated that the Holy Ghost rested upon Brigham Young at the time.

Current LDS Godhead:

Father = Elohim = God the Father
Son = Jehovah = Jesus Christ
Holy Ghost = spirit personage

Those who go through the endowment ceremony are taught that three Gods planned and organized the world and all things on it. Two of these Gods, that is, Jehovah and Michael were organizers under the direction of the third, Elohim. When the Gods had pronounced the world good, Michael, now designated as Adam, with Eve, was to commence the procreation of the children of men. Adam was given dominion over all the earth.

In the endowment ceremony men must follow Adam, and women follow Eve through all the priesthood ordinances if they are to become Gods. They are promised, if they are faithful, that they can become as Adam and Eve and create their own worlds and beget their own spiritual children to inhabit them. This is what Brigham Young was teaching. Currently in the church it is taught, after the change in the creation Gods, not to believe that the above applies to Adam. Church leaders teach that men can become Gods by following Adam but we are not to believe that Adam attained to that position.

Good info... Thanks for sharing.

Yes...this IS excellent material...and well done.

Thank you for putting all of this together, BB!!!

:)

yes, very helpful.

It's so interesting how we went from the Trinity in the Book of Mormon, to three gods in the King Follet discourse, to Brigham's Adam/Michael is the father of our spirits and the father of Jesus Christ, to our doctrine today. What a mess!

I'm gonna have to reread this over and over, because I still don't understand the relationships between Elohim, jehovah, and Michael according to Young.

So, Adam was the father of our spirits, AND the father of jesus Christ? how––just in the flesh? Was Christ not the same as Yahoveh? Because didn't he mention Yahoveh was the son of Elohim in spirit? or body? I'm so confused again. (oh dear, I starting think there's no sense to be made of this)

Elohim was a rather distant creation god, and sent jehovah and micahel to create the earth. Michael became Adam, and Adam was the first flesh, but Adam came down again (before the resurrection and the fall was resolved?) and fathered the body of Christ, in which body Jehovah was placed? Did Christ pray to Adam/Michael? How does this work?

The book of mormon over and over again speaks of Adam's transgression as in need of an atonement. Was Adam/Michael, our heavenly father, the only God with whom we have to do, exempt from the consequences of the transgression for which Christ still had to atone? If the resurrection couldn't happen until after the atonement, with which body did Adam/Michael father Christ with Mary?

I can only make the littlest sense of it if I assume that Brigham Young held the entire book of mormon in contempt!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 04:05AM by Cold-Dodger.

Perhaps it was on the subject of the Fall and the atonement, and the order which they had to operate, especially in regard to the Incarnation, death of Christ, his sojourn in the spirit world, and his resurrection which no resurrection could precede, that Young's doctrine failed to convince most of the church?

Is this part of why Joseph F. Smith claimed to receive DC 138?––so he could say he saw Adam there in the spirit world, stuck there, awaiting his redemption so he could have his body again? If that is true, it sounds like it blows apart Young's idea that Adam is the father of our spirits and the father of the body of jesus Christ.

Geez. It sounds almost like a power struggle to get your doctrine taught as the true doctrine. Young lost.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 04:23AM by Cold-Dodger.

Brigham Young was a false prophet who couldn't identify God in a police lineup.


The best part about LDSism is that if you opposed the teaching while Brigham was alive, you could be excommunicated. Once he died, you could be excommunicated if you supported it.

Bruce McConkie wrote this fascinating letter on the topic to Eugene England:
http://www.mrm.org/bruce-mcconkies-rebuke-of-eugene-england

A couple of excerpts:
Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.

.....further down we read:
Mr. Eugene England
February 19, 1981
Page 7


This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. *****I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

You can't make this sh-- up.

As you can see, mormons are led astray each and every day in a multitude of ways, and that's why Obedience has to be the first law of heaven.

+ a zillion.

LDS leaders won't mention those who lived/died during the previous leaders who didn't quite get it right, how they (individuals) lived their lives believing False Doctrine.
)
Today's confusion is regarding (past teachings about) polyg & Blacks/PH.


but 'Don't Worry' "just follow us" and/or "it'll turn out OK in the Eternities"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 10:57AM by GNPE.

It was Brigham Young's theory JoD volume 4; Pgs 214-221. He spent a lot of time before hand, trying to explain what he was going to talk about but basically he claimed that Elohim and one of his Physical/Celestial wives came down to Earth and partook of the physical foods, etc... of Earth. Heavenly Father's and Heavenly Mother's bodies produced sperm and ova based on the materials of Earth's matter. (dust to dust & all that). After the natural way of conception (they had sex), then the first physical beings were literally born and the spiritual bodies occupied the physical bodies that were created.

B.Y. JoD; Vol4: "Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

When the time came that His firstborn, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favored that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Savior was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever. "
http://journalofdiscourses.com/4/42

The second paragraph is explaining how Jesus was half immortal and half mortal because Elohim is the physical father and Mary the physical mother of Jesus.

The doctrine actually originated with Smith from his studies of the Kabbalah under the teutelage of Neibauer.

The best way to understand this is actually pretty simple once you separate yourself from Mormon Inc.'s present teachings. Young was teaching about true Mormon Godhead, at least when it came to understanding the three gods in the down line which had something to do with the creation of us here on planet earth:

Elohim = Great Grandpa God

Jehova = Grandpa God

Michael/Adam = God the Father

You have to view this doctrine in the way Smith intended it, in that there are a PLURALITY of gods; or one long infinite cosmic MLM downline of dieties.(see King Follett Discourse) This is why this is such a clear deviation from the traditional triune God or Godhead of Christianity and even early Mormonism including the Book of Mormon.

So just to clarify, Jesus was both a spirit child and was physically created as the only begotten by Michael/Adam when he came down one hot August night and physically impregnated Mary with his celestialized semen scepter following a wild time under the sheets with her; and let's not forget that Mary was also one of Adam/Michael's spirit daugthers. I guess incest really is best? It's all go for the Mormon god!

Present Mormon teaching is the following:

Elohim: God the Father

Jehovah: Jesus Christ

Holy Ghost = Unamed spirit/messenger/revelator/mind & will of Elohim and Jesus etc.

Michael = Spirit version of Adam


This teaching was also included in the lecture at the veil in the St. George temple, and was recorded in the papers of John Nuttall. Here's what the lecture said according to Nuttall's transcription of Young's words:

"In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem.

This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve.

How they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness.

And had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child.

It is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father.

This explains the mystery of Moses's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinews. but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life.

Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit that was nesesary that they might be together that man might be. the woman was found in transgression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood [Four lines without any writing on them.]

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit [glory] to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came."

Source: L. John Nuttall Papers; BYU Special Collections, Mss 188, Letterpress copy book #4, p. 290

So there you have it, Adam really is God the Father according to Young. Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous? ;)

So clear something up for me. If Jehovah is the grandpa-God and his son Michael (Adam), gave birth to Jesus Christ both spiritually and physically, then according to the Adam/God Doctrine, was Jehovah not Jesus Christ? In other words, how can the pre-mortal Jesus (Jehovah) be the father of Michael/Adam and also his son spiritually and physically as Jesus Christ on the earth?

Jesus is just another one of Adam/Michael's spirit kids. Jehovah is another god entirely and is NOT Jesus Christ. The first born spirit son and the only begotten son in the flesh as well as the savior of the world for Adam/Michael's spirit progeny is what Jesus is according to this doctrine. They are separate and different beings. One is a god (Jehovah, Grandpa God) and one is a demi-god Jesus, much like Hercules is a son of Zeus and all of that.

You really have to remove Mormon Inc.'s present teachings from the scenario to understand this. It has a hermetic or symbolic quality to it, which was not Smith's intention, but the source material of the Kabbalah treats it as such and that's why it's difficult to comprehend from the literalisitc standpoint of both Young and modern Mormonism which only adds to the confusion. The ideas of the hermetic or gnostic Kabbalah are not compatible with Smith's conversion of the ideas into a literalistic form, and it is just another proof of Smith's religious plagerism and making the ideas fit into his own wacked out Nauvoo theology, all without having an acutal understanding of what the ideas meant in the first place.

So Jesus and Jehovah or NOT the same people according to this doctrine.

Thanks for the follow-up.

It's all insanity. people concoct uniquely skewed ideas about god all the time, but here the egotistical meandering postulations of two men claiming authority affected the course of millions of other people including myself: I have to understand wtf was going on in their heads, at least as much as is possible.

This bastardization of Kabbalah Judaism, is it so airtight that Joseph didn't even bother to rescue the previous scripture he had written?

For example, BofM says "And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out." (2 Nephi 25:29)

Was Christ not even specially divine, according to this view? Was Christ only an Exemplar, the Firstfruits, of many brethren that were all divine? Jevhovah had inarguably been the God of the Jews––so then what––does he just retire when Jesus starts praying to Adam as his heavenly father in the new testament? Is that part of some explanation for the different spirit, or feel, that distinguished the Old and New testaments? By the end of his career, what was Joseph's view of the Book of Mormon?

I'm asking so many questions, I'm not even sure they make sense

Or, is this the mystery that scholarship is trying to resolve, but hasn't yet?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 06:54PM by Cold-Dodger.

A young man raised in relative poverty. His eldest brother, who was really the breadwinner for the family rather than the father, died. This young man has a vivid imagination and is able to conjure up stories for the entertainment of his family, maybe as a way to deal with the harsh realities of life. Now, since his older brother is gone and he has reached an age to be able to contribute, he assists his father in the family business, digging for gold and treasure. Belief in the occult is relied upon. Mixed with that, however, is a deep belief in Christian tenets coupled with a father's belief that god's true religion isn't on the earth.

This young man grows confident in his ability to story tell as well as create "fictions" to enable payment for failed treasure hunts and gold digging.

You have a young Joseph Smith.

Add to this a certain narcissism and you get a full blown con artist. Imagine spending time with him, maybe just out for a walk, one on one. You have questions. He is never short on answers! He cannot be stumped!

I would imagine that this is why his theology changed over time. He was questioned and had to tailor his answers to fit. His fertile mind was able to generate enough "believability" that many followers took it all in without question!

If you go back and study how his theories on the godhead changed, you might see this pattern. Opportunities to elaborate came up, and he elaborated! The answers came about due to issues and questions.

That's my take. Your mileage will vary.

Brigham's doctrine required that Adam was resurrected (a 2nd time no less) prior to the conception of Christ. This was defended scripturally as follows:

"He asked me what I understood concerning Mary conceiving the Savior; and as I found no answer, he asked what was to prevent Father Adam from visiting and overshadowing the mother of Jesus. Then I said: 'he must have been a resurrected Being.' 'Yes,' he said, 'and though Christ is said to have been the first fruits of them that slept, yet the Savior said he did nothing but what He had seen His Father do, for He had power to lay down his life and take it up again. Adam, though made of dust, was made, as President Young said, of the dust of another planet than this.' I was very much instructed by the conversation and this days services."
- Apostle Abraham H. Cannon relating Apostle George Q. Cannon's sentiments, in Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, June 23, 1889, BYU Library Special Collections; online at http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/adamgod.shtml

The above quote was lifted from http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/adamgod.htm.

"Brigham's doctrine required that Adam was resurrected (a 2nd time no less) prior to the conception of Christ."

Let's not add further confusion to this insanity. This is not correct. According to the doctrine, as further explained in the lecture at the veil:

"when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came"

They were already resuurected beings when they (Michael/Adam and one of his wives Eve) arrived in the magical garden in Jackson County, Missouri and when they were finished siring humanity they then returned back to the environs of Kolob with their resurrected bodies intact to live happily ever after. Once you're ressurected, you stay that way I guess; sort of like a celestial corporeal/spirit super glue.

Can you believe that we're actually having this absurd conversation about this insanity??!

Yes, I stand corrected. I made a logical leap based on Cannon's comment, but forget about the teaching at the veil which would account for Adam returning to impregnate Mary.

Very crazy discussion, indeed!


P.S. Thank you for clearing that up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2015 04:22PM by Facsimile 3.