BY:
ANGELA COLLEY
Contributing Writer for Dealnews.com, 3/27/14

The days of upscale shopping centers, stuffed with department stores, is a thing of the past.
Now, due to the rise of online retailers and an economy slowed by the Great Recession,
both department stores and TRADITIONAL MALLS are disappearing...(my emphasis)

Decline of Department Stores and Malls

...With less consumer spending, a slowdown at department stores
(many of which "anchored" malls), and the rise of Internet shopping,
malls are watching the stores that remain instead leave for open air shopping centers
with lower costs and less space, according to CNBC.
In fact, the last indoor mall to open was in 2012, but it was hardly traditional.
The $1.5 billion construction in Salt Lake City boasted waterfalls and a retractable glass roof,
according to the Huffington Post. A traditional mall hasn't opened in America since 2009.

sort of on topic..

for the newbies.. sing along
-------------

The City Creek Song

Sing to When upon life's Billows...


When upon life's billows and you need to shop
When you are discouraged at the parking lots
Come to CITY CREEEEK,..... each and everyone
And it will surprise you what God's corp-or-ation's done

C....ount your mone...y, hundreds...fives and ones
C....ount your credit cards and see what sales are on
Ignore the home.......less outside the temple walls
Count how endless tithing had.... no effect at all.


Are you ever burdened with the lines at Gap
Do your bags seem heavy as you shop at Mr. Mac
C......ount your money... and GAZE up in the sky
Ask yourself why Condo prices... are so high.

When you shop at City Creek with diamonds and the gold
Think that Christ has promised you His wealth un....told
C-o-u-n-t your many blessings, with Credit on your side
No reward in heaven,... just this palace in the sky

So amid the conflict at the check out stands
Do not be discouraged at five billion spent
C...ount your many blessings at the tithing you sent in
Question not the leaders that would be co-mitt-ing sin

C.....ount your money, hundreds, fives and ones
C....ount your money and scorn-those that cannot come
C....ount the tithing... sent in by me and you
Count the money and ignore Mormon8 verse32

Are you ever burdened with a load of debt?
Does the cross seem heavy when you're tithed to death
Count your many blessings as your house is repossessed
And keep ever faithful in the state of most depressed.


So, amid the conflict whether great or small,
Do not be disheartened, God is owner of the mall;
Count... your many blessings, angels will attend,
Help and comfort give you till your shopping ends

If anything proves that the LDS Church is not driven by inspiration, it's the White Elephant Mall. To clean up downtown, they tear down 2 derelict malls and put up a big one in its place, plus some high-end condos. They do this during the real estate bubble that soon bursts. They spend billions on a mall in an era when malls are dying.

Ignoring the argument that churches should not be real estate developers, the mall was a major blunder that will likely cost them billions. It is no coincidence that they fired all their janitors, stripped down Deseret News and reduced ward budgets to a shadow after this project was underway.

Not strange, and "billions" is the important word here. This tabernacle of commercialism could have easily run up to 100's of millions, but billions is SO much money, it would have to have gold cobblestones for that to be reality. No, that money was siphoned off to the contractors who were probably friends, family, and fences who were stashing the money in the Caiman islands for the GA's to get to later. It's a scammy scammy scam scam. I would just love for someone to prove it and expose it.

dum dum dum dum dum

Here is the problem with malls and big box retailers, I needed a new cell phone battery, the local mall had it for $39.99. I found it online [same battery] for $10.95 S&H included

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2016 05:39PM by Amyjo.

The reported sales tax and earnings were better than the Gateway last year.

My hunch is that it will struggle, but it will take a while to fail if it does.

I'm not questioning your motives, but I'm always suspicious of any information that originates with TSCC.
Do you have the exact figures to substantiate your statement (if so, what are they) and
are these figures in the public domain (if so, where can any of us go in the public domain to see them)?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 12:14PM by heretic.

It was reported in the salt lake tribune. Their archive search is n't very good so I've not pulled up the article i read easily. Better digging should pull it up.

A couple of possibilities, though none of them are exactly as I remember--which could be my error.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/56483796-79/creek-downtown-gateway-sales.html.csp

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/56013278-79/creek-center-mall-downtown.html.csp

Thanks for the info,

Facts:

*City Creek Mall, according to the Utah State Tax Commission generated $200 million in taxable sales
during the nine-month period from its opening in March 2012 to the end of last year.

*The Gateway saw its taxable sales decline from $190 million during the final three quarters of 2011
to around $150 million in nine-month period after City Creek opened for business.

*City Creek Mall, according to TSCC, cost 1.5 Billion dollars to build.

Speculation:

If City Creek Mall costs 10 times as much to build as The Gateway (which would mean 150 million dollars to build The Gateway)
wouldn't you expect them to have at least 10 times the taxable income as The Gateway, 1.5 Billion dollars, to be considered a better investment.
Not to mention City Creek Mall had the advantage of all that grand opening customer traffic, etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 02:30PM by heretic.

So it confirms that the MoMall has cannibalized sales from Gateway.

It doesn't mean the LDS, Inc is making money (earnings). As others pointed out it cost 10x Gateway to build and I've seen reports they had offered generous incentives for retailers to relocate there (discounted or free rent).

Also there is a novelty effect of anything new in the first year. I wonder how sales are doing today?

aren't we/you discounting the Snob Appeal aspect of CC?

live in the (limited duration) Condos, maybe rub shoulders with a GA...

I'd like to see more information, like the median age of condo buyers...


Wonderful! Marvelous!

There is a certain amount of snob appeal at City Creek but don't forget - most Mormons are pretty cheap and due to tithing, saving for missions, chipping in when the ward budget falls short etc. - don't have a lot of discretionary funds to throw around. Mormonism Inc. wants to create the image that Mormons are educated, wealthy, successful Mitt Romney wannabes. But even my more successful Mormon friends have to watch their budget because of all the claims the church tries to make on their money. So they will prance around City Creek with their Michael Kors handbags but they bought those bags online or at a discount store. And they might go there on vacation but just buy a souvenir Godiva Chocolate and something from the Disney store (but probably not since they go to Disneyland every year anyway.) In other words, make a quick, low-cost purchase to say they went to City Creek on vacation and then go home.

Locals probably can find cheaper ways to create the same image. That's the name of the game in Mormonism, isn't it? Cheap and imitation?

money losing temples. But again My hope is not for the demise of the City Creek Mall, there are too many people who depend on that income, I'd hate to wish ill any hourly employees job.

Actually, I think temples definitely are profit centers. Because if there is a temple nearby, then "good" members can be persuaded that they need a recommend so they can participate in ward/stake temple activities. Or weddings, sealings, etc. Which means they have to be sure they are all paid up on tithing....

If the temple is an 8-hour drive or airplane flight away, you don't really need a current recommend all the time. And even a wedding, you might choose to have in your hometown and do the sealing later, someday, and then not everybody in the family will feel the need to go. But if that temple is just down the street and your niece is engaged, better get all paid up.

Yeah, I think there is a reason those small temples make a lot of business sense.

But .. but ... but I love malls.
However the city creek mall has nothing that I need but I do like that food court.

I have never seen a Temple thrive with customers, especially in rural UT, they are empty.....
As for good member keep them alive is just asking too much....

I hope not. It's really nice. I like to go there when I'm in Utah...

I don't think they will let it fail. In a Business Week article last year they admitted that funds from the non-profit arm of TSCC were sometimes used to bail out the for-profit arm.

My guess is that they will keep it financiall propped up and then sell it off?

I'm not a tax attorney, but I wonder if TSCC taking funds from their non-profit arm
to bail out their for-profit arm is such a smart idea.

I wonder if at some future date it would justify a court looking at the two,
as one and the same entity, in regards to any future sex abuse, tax, etc. lawsuits?

And we should never forget gross incompetence, something LDS Inc is well known for.

The mall will be a giant sucking sound.

American retail is in a tailspin, as Jeff Bezos is taking them all out. Retail cannot compete because of the costs of a brick and mortar building, requiring vast inventory,and staffing the place with people.

From the consumer end, first of all parking is required. Additionally no mall can compete with the prices or selection online.

Retail will continue to be a dying industry, which is not a good thing considering how many people they employ.

However, if the business is a huge money laundering scheme, then losing money is not necessarily a bad thing.

My guess is that the mall was constructed dumping hundreds of millions into insiders hands through unknown contracts. We saw a taste of that with the tax return that was required where the company lost more money than they spent on parking.

https://bulk.resource.org/irs.gov/eo/2011_11_T/20-8152281_990T_201012.pdf


Upon completion of construction, the business morphed into a giant money laundering scheme..necessary because...

Huge revenue drops in tithing that have made day to day operations of LDS inc have a negative cash flow.

Decades of insider trading, huge consultant contracts/fees and outright embezzlement from the for profit end of LDS Inc left too little money.

I think LDS Inc is in dire financial straits and we will see a mormon bankruptcy in the foreseeable future. All indications are pointing in that direction.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 02:02PM by deco.

What you're describing is called "kickbacks". Money Laundering is something different.

The object of laundering is to hide or explain large amounts of criminal income by attributing it to a legitimate source, so a money laundering scheme would have to be a business that is not failing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Sales Tax is public information. Just go on line to the sale tax website and you can learn what every business pays the state.

I suspect the mall itself will survive because the church needs it to. I hear they offered several years free rent to Apple. I imagine Apple isn't the only one.

I think they're taking a bath on the high rise condo. If you drive by at night it doesn't look to be 25% occupied.

To me malls are mausoleums of the shopping damned. I hate crowds. When I purchase something online, it shows up at my door within days. I don't even see the person who delivers it. And it costs less.

Our local malls USED to be very crowded. I remember total gridlock in the parking lot before Christmas one year, MANY years ago. Not anymore! It's never crowded anymore. If it's similar where you are, you might be happily surprised.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2016 01:31PM by seekyr.

I wonder if a lot of our individual online purchasing may one day come to a halt if we overburden the couriers or if fuel prices skyrocket forcing delivery costs way up. I guess it'd have to be significant in order to make it less costly than selling through a retailer.

I prefer shopping online to the crowds and Christmas rush at the department stores this time of year.

Since I don't have a lot to shop for I'm enjoying more activities that don't involve a big box stores, or malls.

Keeping it simple is my motto. It works for me! :-)

- are any of the maintenance / custodial staff there on 'church callings' (so-called volunteers)?



- if the condos are < 50% sold/occupied, that's real trouble for the Morg; they'll be 'forced' to either extend or sell them outright... Any signs of that in the wind?


- If income isn't as expected the owners might ask for a revaluation based on the lower income (Mall is taxed, Correct?) At least that's the way it works here in Washington: a factor in business property value is the income it generates

You are incorrectly assuming the City Creek & it's owners ("The" Church.) are operating aboveboard. The City Creek Mall is a pittance to the church. Maybe 2% of it's estimated 100 Billion dollar assets. They built it to protect Temple Square from urban blight. They tried to sell condos to the most faithful suckers. Stores, rents, management fees & costs are propped upped and subsidized by the church. There are credible rumors that LDS Inc pays labor costs to the over priced stores that occupy retail space. Go there at any given day. Customers are non-exsistant, except maybe at Nordstrom or Macy's. The rest are visitors and window shopers. I'll bet that some of the employees at the high end boutiques see their store restroom more times everyday than they make a sale. It won't fail. The church won't let it fail (in the public eye- business wise, it's a black hole), they have unlimited tithing dollars, washed & laundered, to keep it going.

I once called the tax people (county assessor?) there, person said on phone that the Mall property is taxable.

IDK what U mean by 'operating aboveboard' other than the above...

Yes the mall is taxable. Aboveboard means that someone, that doesn't have to be a forensic accountant, can see the money flow. The church can move "for profit" and "tax exempt" money, effortlessly between both entities. They've been doing it for over 100 years with great success. LDS Inc. makes Bernie Madoff envious.

If the mall is losing money as you seem to think, then LDS Inc propping it up so it appears to be successful would mean they are converting already tax-free money into taxable money.

Don't give up your day job. This forensic accounting thing may not work out for you.

Damn, posted in wrong spot. :(

To answer the original question posed in 2014, it pretty obviously lasted over two years, and is still turning in pretty good sales tax figures, in spite of Amyjo never seeing any customers.

I walk through about twice a week. Rumors of its impending demise are greatly exaggerated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2016 10:44PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Not all of the church's money is taxable.

You also have all the business interests of the hierarchy.

Plenty of taxable money to push through and get a write off.

Any successful mall needs to keep reinventing itself. Stagnation equals failure. Some make it, some don't.

Summer, it was never intended to be what it was purported to be. Building a mall & high end condo's, in the worst economic recession since the Great Depression, was not a great financial decision. (You'd think an all knowing prophet would've seen that coming). After the mall turned out to be a financial boondoggle, the church stated that they were building the huge project to give jobs to people during hard times (how nice). City Creek is arm candy to protect Temple Square for the future. 20 years from now, the church will use tithing money to convert the mall (and buy nearby property) turn the mall into the Salt Lake MTC. Plus, the more stuff that they build, the more money that the real estate, construction company owners, concrete suppliers, & material suppliers in the 70, the more money the top dogs can bank. When you see things being built (McTemples, Philly Condo's, etc) that don't make sense- follow the money. If you can.

I'm tending to agree with your opinion/insight, but I still think that a number of 'olders' who don't like to purchase online/ they may not think of themselves 'of that era/generation';

also, some people have family or other ties to employees & get employee discounts; some still enjoy showing their peers that they patronize the mall stores. 'status' & appearances have & always will be high-horsepower items in Morland!

The stores were bare when I was there in May mid-day, except for my walk through Macy's. It actually featured shoppers, but not many.

The high end boutiques were void of shoppers, even window shoppers.

What *was* busy was the parking garage that was filled to max capacity - I don't know where all those people go, but they aren't filling up the CCC despite parking at the CCC parking garage. Downtown SLC has lots more to see and do, granted.

People do not have that kind of money to pay the prices they are asking at the upscale stores.

It's a money pit for the church. If it's tithes that are keeping it going or profits from other investments, when the church coffers dry up from the tithes as it will happen when more people leave than join or stay, the CCC will become another desolate shuttered mall - its glory days are now but numbered.

I just hate malls, to me there isn't anything but stores of women clothing and lady shoes, or there's those big stores like Macy's, as soon as you go in you get blasted by the perfumes that would make a Vegas hooker proud.

Give me a place that has bit of everything that encourages window shopping or just wondering.

There use to be some stores in the Portland Oregon area named GI Joe's, it was originally army surplus stuff, then they added sporting goods and auto stuff. But basically it was a junk store that you could waste hours wondering the aisles, picking up stuff you never knew you needed.

GI Joe's got bought out and a new business model was installed, to better server a better class clientele. It didn't work, they've gone out of business.

All that's left is Wal-Mart that comes with it's special customers, or Cabelas, but I need to wear cameo to fit in.

It's little wonder that Amazon, eBay and Craigslist is doing so well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2016 07:59PM by tumwater.

Cabelas...you mean Bass Pro Shop, don't you? Cabelas was recently bought out.

The store near where I live still has the Cabela name on it, but yes about BPS.

Any of those type stores seem to have the unwritten law about wearing the appropriate attire to cross their threshold, camo, hunter orange and a side arm on full display. Four wheeled drives (muddy is optional) in the parking lot with dogs slobbering up the windows.

Hot dam, better go and start my seasonal shopping. Maybe I should go roll around in the cow pen first and maybe nobody will notice that I don't own any camo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2016 12:29PM by tumwater.

Macy's department stores nationwide has been in bankruptcy protection for the past 2-3 years. It plans on closing 17 of its stores in 2017.

Other national retailers are in the same boat, some worse than others.

CCC is feeling the pains of the stagnant economy and consumers reluctance to fork over our dough where the supply and demand (and consumer confidence,) is just not there.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/11/news/companies/macys-closings-retail-malls/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2016 08:14PM by Amyjo.

This thread gave me an ear worm. "Money" by Pink Floyd.

People still shop in malls? I can't remember the last time I went to one. Now that you can get your groceries at Target I go weeks without going to any other store and when I do, it's COSTCO to pick up a chicken (although a bazillion other things jump into my cart while I'm there just cause they want a free ride to the outside). But until our mail room person gets tired of delivering all my Amazon and ebay boxes, I'll park my butt right here to do my shopping.

Well, heck, NormaRae, where do you go to watch people being all pretentious?

Haha. I work in the corporate offices of a large Fortune 100 company. Trust me, I have no problem getting my fill of people being all pretentious.

Forgive me for not providing all the documentation for this comment, but I wanted to say it anyway. An associate of mine showed me the profit information for one of the largest Mall owner /management companies in the US. They made about 100 million dollars in that year on Dozen of malls across the US. given that LDS inc spent 5 billion on CCC mall which I contend really is an accurate figure as tracked by this same associate, it would take 50 years to pay off the CCC project assuming that there was not any interest involved, IF the singular CCC mall could generate as much profit (not to be confused with income) as the Mall management companies dozens of Malls does (NOT likely), and IF that income remains steady which is NOT likely as mall revenues are in decline. Basic point: It is NOT a stretch to say that LDS inc sank a ton of money into an area -malls, that are generally in decline, even as their own revenues are in steep decline.

This, I do know. My own family paid dearly into their beloved non golfing country club / MORmON social club, to the extent of giving up their own personal ventures in the interest of helping out the work of THE Lord. they were unable to pursue their own personal interests so that THE bunch of ass clowns running THE (MORmON) church could do stupid stuff like blowing up the Key Bank Building and demolishing the ZCMI / Cross Roads Malls to try to entertain a foul nasty cankered self infatuated old man who would be dead in few more months anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkVNWHT-IA

City Creek = the future BYU Salt Lake campus extension.

You heard it here first.

LDS inc. developed the mall but sold the operating rights to the mall to Taubman prior to commencement.

Market value at that time of sale was around $300m.

LDS inc. has already written off their developmentlosses.

Many of the retailers have "gross sales" base rent terms. Meaning the tenant only pays base rent if their sales are above a certain amount.

i believe that this mall is currently in the black for Taubman.

one can look at Taubman's filed 10k for details.