what does God promise to you when you keep your covenants? isn't that the definition of a covenant?

You get eternal life! (in other words, you do what I say, and in return, I won't kill you)

I always figured the covenants' reward was being eligible for the highest realm in the CK.

I still think it resembles me going, "You worship me and give me treats and loves and pets and maybe I won't bite you."

The official explanation I was taught was this: a covenant is a two-way promise between you and God; if you keep your end of the covenant, God is bound to keep His. This concept sounds simple on the surface, but (like everything else in Mormonism), it's not.

As I understood it, different covenants had different rewards attached. You had to keep ALL of them and be constantly repenting of any mistakes or omissions in order to qualify for the rewards (some of which were collectable in this life, some deferred until the afterlife, and some paid out specific rewards now and specific ones later). If keeping track of all the obligations and payouts isn't enough to make your head spin, there's more.

Once you make a covenant, you are absolutely required to keep it, no matter what. If you don't, there are penalties attached -- not only do you not get the rewards, you get punished, plus the endowment tells you are also in Satan's power. You are much worse off than if you never made the covenant at all (yeah, that's an incentive). God, on the other hand, only has to fulfill His end of the covenant if you keep yours. He has a built-in escape clause, and there are no negative consequences to Him if He doesn't pay out even if you do manage to qualify.

Instead, it's somehow always *your* fault if God doesn't deliver.

Let's take tithing as an example. Mormons are taught that if they faithfully pay a full tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven" as per the OT and the tithe-payer will be able to meet his/her family's needs, plus have the Spirit and a lovely sense of peace and security. Many of us here know how that has worked out for us: empty cupboards, shut-off utilities, postponed medical and dental care, and maybe even homelessness or couch-surfing at TBM cousin's house. What does a TBM say if this happens?

1. You weren't faithful enough or you failed to do something else you were supposed to do, like daily prayer, scripture study, or FHE. Or maybe you drank that caffeinated soda and God was watching -- oops! You didn't qualify in the first place.

2. You have a bad attitude because you were expecting God to reward you instead of just being incredibly thankful for whatever you did get. God is testing your faith and teaching you humility.

3. The blessings were delayed because God hands them out on His schedule, not yours. Keep forking over the $$$ and be patient!

4. It's still your fault because God always keeps His word (even when He doesn't).

Covenant: God 1, you 0.

You nailed it!!!

In word only...

RB

The idea is that god will bless you and you will go to heaven.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rude question, because I mean it in all sincerity. What exactly does the LDS church teach about Jesus death and ressurection? Surely the whole point of it in my understanding is that we as imperfect humans can't ever atone for our sins because we are inherently selfish. Jesus suffered and died to pay for our sins, so we could be free to approach the throne of our Father in Heaven.

I was taught, and I believe that if I (or you) had been the only person alive Jesus loves us with such a perfect love he would have died for that one person.

As the LDS church demands all these other rules, handshakes, secret names etc. What was the point of Jesus even coming to Earth in the first place, not to mention dying such an excruciating and humiliating death?

lol this is rfm, your question is not rude.

you gotta have both...tscc's ordainaces and the atonement according to tbms. however, they'd never be able to go there in their minds.

In Mormon theology, what the atonement gets you is forgiveness of all your sins -- but only if you get baptized as a Mormon by a priesthood-holder in good standing "for the remission of sins" -- and free resurrection (whether you're Mormon or not). Once you're baptized, as long as you stay a faithful Mormon, repent and don't do it again (in which case the sins return), you're eligible for continued forgiveness. If you leave TSCC, you're SOL as far as the forgiveness thing. Cool, huh? Who knew Jesus had such limited power and there were so many strings attached?

If you don't want to spend eternity partying in the telestial kingdom, you have to become a Mormon. If you do that, but lapse out of the faith or don't get all the temple ordinances, you can go to the terrestrial kingdom.

You have to do all the temple ordinances and keep your covenants for the rest of your life to get to "exaltation" in the CK (the highest level of the highest level), where you then get all the goodies, including eternal sex and reproduction, being stuck with your family forever, Godhood status (well, not anymore), and all the knowledge and power God has. If you're a woman, you get to be part of hubby's eternal harem and can look forward to cranking out spirit babies forever and sharing him with a lot of other women. If you fail to make the highest level, you get to be a servant to the folks who do. Yay.

So what does Jesus get you in the Mormon view? Not much.

Jesus' death never seemed like a big deal to me when I was a TBM. He would've known it was only temporary... So who cares? I wouldn't mind being dead a few million years if I guaranteed came back...

Dear "Wasalmostamormon": Jesus' death is not at all important to Mormons. They believe that he took our sinful natures upon himself and he suffered for those sins whilst in the Garden, praying. It was so difficult that he literally sweat blood for us and for our sins.

They could not care less about the cross (evil Catholic symbolism!), as it had NOTHING to do with the atonement! Whereas the Catholic Church (and many Protestant Churches) believe that "for our sins and for our salvation he suffered died and was buried. He descended into Hell. The Third Day he rose again, according to the scriptures" etc. The Mormons believe that it was Jesus' job to make sure that we all had free agency to choose good or evil. He suffered in the Garden for our sins and AT THAT TIME the Atonement was completed. Again, his death had no part in saving us. He was resurrected to help people understand that he was a god and they could be, too. Very different from traditional Christianity of any sort.

Hope that wasn't too convoluted. I might have gotten some of it wrong, but this is precisely what I was taught in TSCC.

That's why some people say that the Mormon God is more like a Mafia boss.

"You do this for me and I won't send you into outer darkness."

We exmormons are often accused of being "covenant-breakers," implying that we are basically dishonest, we are not people whose "word is our bond."

A covenant is a contract, based on mutual promises and on the existence of certain facts understood and accepted by both parties. I promise to do this if you promise to do that. Both legally and morally, if one party doesn't keep his part of the bargain, or if it should turn out that the basic facts are not as both parties assumed, the other party is not required to perform. To claim otherwise would be absurd.

The covenants made in the Mormon temple are similar. The Mormon covenants to do certain things (obey, sacrifice, be chaste, give everything to the church if asked, etc.) and to refrain from doing certain things (revealing the secret handshakes, names, and other details of the ritual). The Mormon makes these covenants after having been told that the underlying facts are:

- the "other party" to the covenants is God;
- God wants the Mormon to make these covenants;
- God will bless the Mormon in many wonderful ways if the Mormon makes the covenants and keeps his part of the bargain;
- there is no other way to obtain those blessings from God, other than making those covenants.

Suppose I tell you that I have a million dollars to give away, and I promise to give you that million if you promise to be my servant for a year. And I want our little bargain to be our secret (I don't want to have to pay Social Security and workers' comp insurance.) You agree, and we shake hands, and call it a "solemn covenant." But after just a week, you learn that I don't have any money at all, let alone a million dollars. Do you feel obligated to continue working for me for the rest of the year? And do you feel obligated (remember: you promised not to tell!) to keep the secret? Or would you feel justified in going to the authorities?

Oaths are also made during a marriage ceremony. If the couple later divorces, would you feel that the wife was still morally bound to love, honor and obey, especially if it was acts of the husband that caused the divorce?

The covenants made by Mormons in the temple are obtained under false pretenses. God has nothing to do with them. They are no more binding, either legally or morally, than the mumbo-jumbo of fraternity initiation rituals.

And it would certainly be absurd to expect someone who no longer believes in Mormonism, who is convinced that the temple covenants are not from God and that God is not going to do what the Mormons promised he would do, to feel bound by those covenants in any way. (The one exception might be the covenant of chastity, if made at the same time to a spouse.)

The Old Testament covenants between God and the Hebrew people --especially the Abrahamic and Davidic -- were not tit-for-tat.I know you don't put much stock in the Bible, RPackham, but for what it's worth, God (Yahweh) promised to uphold His side of the covenant(s), even if the humans failed -- which they certainly did.

Addressing wasalmostamormon's question above: LDS, like most cults, is a works-and-obedience doctrine. Sure they say they believe in Jesus' Atonement, forgiveness and grace, but there is typically a strong "but only if you..." element. For the Jehovah's Witnesses, it's obedience, door-to-door witnessing, and strict attendance at Kingdom Hall. For Mormon's it's a lot of requirements, including Baptism, Temple work, strict morality, tithing, obedience (e.g. fulfilling calls), marriage and a big, fat ETC.

I've heard a mishie say, "We believe in grace--grace is God's work after you do all you can do." Which begs the question: How do you know you've actually done "all you can do?" Does ANYbody know they've done...all they can do?

Temple covenants are one-sided.

You covenant to give everything you have in this life to the Mormon church and, in return, the Mormon church gives you a nebulous promise of Salvation in the Hereafter.

Wish more people would wise up to the con.

This was discussed on the forum a few weeks ago.

I don't understand how these covenants could be even theoretically binding, given that the church changes the ceremonies, wording, etc every few years without notice.
Thus the church is putting god in breach of the covenants,
as one party does not get to change the terms of a deal after it is struck and agreed upon!

To me this is just common sense, but nobody has ever been able to explain to me how this can be "Okay."

Yeah the reward is you get to live with JS. I wonder if you have to watch him rape girls for eternity? Outer darkness sounds go much better than that.

Thanks for all your answers.

I often hear Mormons saying "of course we are Christians it's in the title!" But to be honest, the title seems to be just about the only place that Jesus does appear in Mormonism.

Mormons say they don't make "oaths"--they make "covenants." Covenants are more romantic than oaths, but they are the same. "I made a covenant" sounds so much more romantic than "I took an oath," but I would contend that there is nor material difference between the two.

But Mormon "covenants" are actually just one-sided business deals. You make a covenant, they take your money. If you don't give them their money, you can't make another covenant. Damn.

The individual temple covenants are one sided promises. There are no blessings outlined in the endowment besides becoming "kings and queens, priests and priestesses" in the next life. I guess some might consider the revealing of the secret handshakes you need to get into heaven as part of god's side of the deal. Even if Mormonism was true, and it's not, I don't want to be a god/king/priest for eternity. I think most Mormons, if they stopped to think about it for two seconds, would realize that they don't want that either.

Mormons take it a step further. I sat in testimony meeting a while ago when a real "spiritual" father bore his soul that if the Lord would give him a wonderful lucrative job he would make his wife pop out as many babies as possible. He did have a great job and made a lot of money, I guess? And there were 9 kids in the family. Does God listen to prayers like that? I think it is a pompous thing to try to strike a deal with sky daddy. There is a level of arrogance in it.