There are several examples but one that comes to mind is JS claiming that he wasn't practicing polygamy had 31 people testify that he wasn't lying, when in fact he had married around 33 women at the time.
There are many specific examples that others will list off, but the first thing that comes to mind is the concept of "the milk before meat" used by missionaries.
GregS Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > There are many specific examples that others will > list off, but the first thing that comes to mind > is the concept of "the milk before meat" used by > missionaries.
First day of my mission, after the MTC. The 4 of us newbies were taken to the mission home for a "pep-talk" before being sent out to our cities. Mission president drones on about a bunch of rules, then...
"If anyone wants to discuss controversial things like what goes on in the temple, polygamy, or other such things, tell them that while you know all about what they need to learn to join God's church, you don't know about those things, so you won't discuss them."
Me, rousing out of jet-lag and boredom: "Um, president X, isn't that lying? I do know about those things."
"No, it's not -- it's for their own good, and so you won't get into arguments. Trust me."
Generally, it's the idea that a Mormon (often a church leader) can say whatever they want (lie) if it is in furtherance of what they perceive to be the will of God. (An example of "the end justifies the means.")
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2016 05:37PM by lurking in.
Lying about mormonism, regardless of the content, as long as it brings the victim (potential convert) to the church. I've never figured out how they think that people will ever trust them again after they learn that they got duped.
The ends justify the means--to get more people into the church, Mormons will lie a little or purposefully leave out important, difficult items. Lying for the lord happens a lot with Mormon history and doctrine.
The best known case of using the term "Lying for the Lord" comes from Mormon-big-shot-lawyer-apostle, Dallin Oaks, who admitted the church leadership had lied on numerous occasions to tell the US government and others what they wanted to hear.
The well-known stories of super-Mormon missionary, Paul H. Dunn, contained many lies that had to have been known to his fellow GA colleagues. He was lying for the Lord to tell miraculous faith stories to get people to join. You can google his name and read n your own the lies. The Individual who exposed him, Lynn Packard, lost his job.
Here's an example of leaving out important points of doctrine-potential converts are never told that they will eventually be asked to give "everything you have, or ever will have to the COJCOLDS for building the kingdom of God and the establishment of Zion." That covenant is the last one made in the temple. How well would do you think that that teaching would go over with a potential convert?
BYU Boner Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here's an example of leaving out important points > of doctrine-potential converts are never told that > they will eventually be asked to give "everything > you have, or ever will have to the COJCOLDS for > building the kingdom of God and the establishment > of Zion." That covenant is the last one made in > the temple.
Not if you have your calling and election made sure. More covenants and you get your actual license to lie for The Lord.
Seeing as how Mormonism itself began as a series of lies, lying is a routine practice of supporting it and justifying its existence. One of the earliest documentations of the practice is mentioned below, in discussing the lies that Joseph Smith and his fellow secret polygamous followers told in order to deny the practice:
"Fabricated stories designed to protect the [Nauvoo polygamous] individuals are seen elsewhere. Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to protect brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage. Sarah Pratt was not the only woman to suffer from this policy. The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals.....Jane Law, wife of Smith's counselor William Law, was also blacklisted for rejecting Smith's polyandrous proposal." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard van Wagoner, pp. 38-39.)
Missionaries must twist their words to fit the listener's needs and background.
Question: Do mormons believe in one heaven?
Answer: Yes, it's called the celestial kingdom where all all worthy people go after death. (They don't usually say that the whole system is layered with people going to other kingdoms where they lose their genitals and exist under mormon rule.)
Question: Do mormon believe in polygamy?
Answer: Only to take care of widows and orphans and for a few spirit mormons in heaven. (They don't say that early saints for forced to live polygamy to save their souls or that there are 100s of polygamous groups in Utah and withing some wards, all protected by the mainstream church.)
Almost every single thing missionaries tell investigators is spun to induce them into the cult, not to inform them freely.
My high school friend converted to Mormonism long before the internet came along. When I asked her about polygamy, she gave me the standard, "to take care of the widows and orphans on the frontier" whitewash that she herself had been given by the missionaries. Even then, it struck me as weak.
Would she have converted if she knew the truth? -- that Joseph had "married" young teens, wards under his protection, and the wives of men that he had sent on missions? I don't know, but she would have at least have had a fuller picture with which to make her decision.
,,,if tge 1960s, 70s, and 80, and by other groups. The belief is that "WE" (the cult, the one true church) are of God, and everybody, without exception, not being of the church (and God) is therefore of Satan. Since Satan is a liar and the father of lies, it is permissible to lie to him. All people outside our One True Church are therefore of Satan, and therefore we can lie to them.
The Moonies (Unification Church) had a term for it: "Divine Deceit." Have any of you encountered this kind of teaching in LDS?
Words symbolize truth, but the two are not equivalent. Words are at best metaphors, no more.
By accident I put my hand on a hot stove. How can I describe that feeling to you, that pain? I cannot, although I may try. Whatever I say is a lie, regardless of my sincerity.
All religions know this, Mormonism perhaps more than most. (So do politicians, and journalists, and professors, and teenage boys trying to get into teenage girls' pants.) They use words to corrupt the experience of living to suit their own ends. They purport to reveal truth, yet truth remains ineffable (as, ironically, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel noted about God).
LDS is one of the more baroque participants in this near-universal scam.
It may not apply directly to "Lying for the Lord", but I remember a conversation I had with a ward mission president (or whatever the title is) soon after I married my wife and started attending the investigator's class. I had already been through my first round of discussions with the missionaries, and my wife was telling me about living prophets and extermination orders.
Anyway, the ward mission president introduced himself and we engaged in some small talk. I explained that I'm not a member, but that the missionaries and my Mormon wife had been very generous in explaining everything I needed to know about Mormonism.
"Like what," he asked.
(I'm a bit of a kidder and like to banter with people as means of establishing a rapport. It works for me. Relatives, friends, and coworkers have often told me with a smile, "You're a bit of an ass," before returning fire with bantering of their own.)
I was no less an "ass" in my response to the ward mission president when I said, "Oh yeah, my wife's been telling me all of the church secrets, especially what happens in the temples; the naked pagan rituals, secret handshakes, blood oaths, etc. Sounds like my kind of party."
Of course, nobody had told me any such thing and I really knew nothing other than what the missionaries had told me. I hadn't even done my own research at that time. My intent was to be purposely over-the-top so that he would know I was just kidding. And his response, "They are sacred, not secret," led me to believe that he was just bantering in return, but his expression told an entirely different story...he was not amused.
It wasn't until I had started my own research into the church, that I learned that what I jokingly considered over-the-top was seriously dead on. Oops!