Two LDS missionaries approached my friend to help carry her groceries. They said they were looking for people to teach; people weren’t interested. She said she’d never be Mormon, but she didn’t mind meeting with them.

She invited me to attend. I’m a nevermo who grew up in UT.

The missionaries were from UT. They were accompanied by an older man from the local area. First, we discussed our beliefs re God, why bad things happen, etc.

Next, I said I heard about the essays released by the LDS church that are causing many Mormons to leave their church. I asked what they thought about the church’s admitting Joseph Smith married 14-yr old children and other men’s wives. BLANK STARES.

Then the man said he had recently been asked the same question by a friend who attends a local Christian church. He felt that church was preaching info against the Mormons. He made these statements, but didn't answer my question as to what he thought.

Mish 1, also having no answer to my question, said for about the 3rd time during the meeting that he KNEW the church was true and he KNEW Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Mish 2 said one must be careful because there is both LDS info and “anti-Mormon” info online. I told him I didn’t want to talk about anti-Mormon info. I wanted to hear their thoughts re the essays on the LDS church website like the ones about polygamy and polyandry, Brigham Young’s racist teachings, and the church’s admittance that the BOA was not a translation of the papyri. BLANK STARES AND SILENCE.

So, I continued to talk. I asked if Brigham Young taught false doctrines and the prophets following him continued to teach false doctrines, then how do they know which current church doctrines are true or false? If the church was wrong about blacks and the priesthood, maybe the church is wrong about women and the priesthood or its stance on gay marriage. Mish 1 awkwardly repeated his KNOW testimony. Mish 2 flipped thru his scriptures.

To try to stay focused on one topic, I again asked their feelings about Joseph Smith’s numerous marriages. Finally, the man said that Joseph Smith was a sinner, just like all of us. We all shook our heads in agreement, with all of us saying Joseph Smith was a sinner. I asked if Joseph Smith were a prophet of God, shouldn’t he be held accountable to higher standards? I asked how they can belong to a church with a founder who did such terrible things. Mish 1 repeated his KNOW testimony. Mish 2 said he’d have to look up this info about Joseph Smith. I told him to look on the LDS website for the essays.

Mish 2 said the prophet is the mouthpiece of God. I asked him to name the 10 most recent prophecies of their prophet. SILENCE from Mish 2, but Mish 1 repeated he KNOWS the church is true again, etc.

Mish 2 said the church provides a lot of humanitarian aid. I asked him to point me to any financial documents re such aid. SILENCE. I asked why City Creek Mall was built vs. giving that money to the poor. Mish 2 said the mall was built to produce revenue that is given to the poor. I asked if he was believing what someone else told him or if he saw financial documents. I told him I'd like to see financial documents vs. trusting his trusting what someone else told him. SILENCE.

Everyone was polite. I did push quite a bit. Mish 2 asked my friend if they could meet again after he found some answers. He offered a very nice prayer.

After they left, my friend and I thought how sad it is these young men are giving up 2 years of their lives to peddle a religion they don’t know with a very limited script. I thought of my kids who are similar ages and in college, having the time of their lives.

"I KNOW the church is true."

Here's evidence it isn't.

"I KNOW the church is true."

Your founder was an adulterer and child molester.

"I KNOW the church is true."

Your own church admits it has lied to its members, its prophets are very often wrong, and it has no answers to most questions.

"I KNOW the church is true."

(Mish 1 leaves the house, and on the way out is thinking, "Geez, I wonder if the church really is true?")

+1

MoBot in action mode.

Maybe you planted a seed there. Seems like Mish 1 is going to be unconvinced by logical thinking, but maybe repeating, re-repeating testimonkey is an act to cover ignorance or even his own doubt?

roomwithaview that was great!!!!!! Well done!

+1

OK, that was a pretty awesome exchange you had. I could only wish in my dreams to be so capable as you were. Good going. Maybe you gave all three church representatives pause to consider what kind of organization they belong to and what it is they are pushing. I so love to read about experiences like this. It's like when Good overcomes Evil in story telling, except it is real life.

Hey, if you remember either of the missionaries' names, you might be able to find out if they blogged about you. Would be interesting what their take on it was. Usually it is just so "awesome!" It might go something like this: "We had such a miracle yesterday. Two awesome investigators at one time! Heavenly Father always rewards us with such awesome miracles when we are obedient to Him. I think they will definitely be ready for baptism soon as long as they listen to the spirit. That was the highlight of our week. " etc, etc, ad nauseum. I think it is a rare missionary that tells it like it is, and those are always fun to read.

Keep up the good work. I guess you never know when an opportunity like that will fall in your lap.

As a missionary we were taught to not argue, but explain with scriptures. When in doubt, or if you don't have an answer, give your testimony.

It sounds like they were in doubt quite a bit.

Good job.

You can bet they will try to waylay your neighbor when you aren't around.

Better warn her and explain their tactics.

Thank you for doing this! I wish my Mom had been in that room, hell my Dad too. Unfortunately, my Dad would have been missionary #1 and my Mom would have been missionary #2. :/

My mom would have been missionary number one and my dad would have been yelling about sin, repentance and the devil. Loads of fun at my house.

Thank you for your service! Your anti-missionary service that is.

What a perfect example of how to plant seeds roomwithaview.

This is how you get them. Not with anger or slammed doors but with kindness, respect, logic, reason and church provided evidence.

Sweet!

Sometimes I am able to think on my feet (or butt, if sitting) like this but seldom so effectively! Thanks for the example!

Keep on keeping on!

Nicely done! :)

Now they're chasing people down in supermarket parking lots? Isn't that just a tad creepy?

Very nicely done! Since the church made it somewhat difficult to find the essays, I would make copies of the list with links and have them ready to give to the mishies if they return...maybe give the copies to your neighbor in case they drop in when you are not around. Return and report if they do show up again.

A list with links can be found here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1180178

Copy and paste the list into a new document so no reference to RFM is on the print outs.

Well done, roomwithaview!

Those were all fair points. I actually feel a little bad for the missionaries; they know so little.

"I again asked their feelings about Joseph Smith’s numerous marriages. Finally, the man said that Joseph Smith was a sinner, just like all of us."

This is one of the big contradictions in Mormons' responses to this issue: Plural marriage was supposed to be a revelation from God, not a "sin" on Joseph Smith's part. The missionary unwittingly exhibited a bit of a personal conscience and integrity by theorizing that Smith "sinned" to some degree.

According to Smith, God sent an angel with a drawn sword to threaten Smith's life if he didn't practice polygamy. If it was that important to God, then it doesn't make sense that Smith would have somehow "sinned" in his practicing it; if he had done something wrong, surely God or the angelic hit-man would have corrected him.

What those missionaries don't yet realize is that for them to continue believing in the church, they have to accept that polygamy was of God, and that Smith practiced it just as God commanded him to. If a Mormon doesn't adopt that attitude, then they might one day think themselves out of the church.

Agreed. What part of D&C 132, per the church, is supposed to be a sin?

Exactly - the essay says Joseph Smith was commanded to do this.

Just to clarify, the missionaries helped carry my friend’s groceries as she walked from her car to her front door.

The man who accompanied them was the first to say Joseph Smith was a sinner (both mishies agreed). He compared Joseph to a prostitute in the Bible (both being sinners).

I forgot to mention that Mish 2 said polygamy was necessary because it created the most offspring. I asked him how 1 man married to 40 women could create more offspring than 40 men married to 40 women. He thought about that and said he was wrong.

My friend said before I arrived the discussion was the First Vision. I’m not sure which version of it. Also, Mish 2 had asked her to read a passage from the BOM and then asked if she felt the Spirit because he definitely felt the Sprit. She told him she didn’t feel anything. She asked him what Spirit people of other religions feel when they read their holy books, pray, sing, etc. She said he didn’t answer.

My friend would NEVER become Mormon. She’s a nice lady who felt bad for these young men getting doors slammed in their faces and didn’t mind feeding them some cookies. Maybe that's a mom thing.

We hope they return.

"The man who accompanied them was the first to say Joseph Smith was a sinner (both mishies agreed). He compared Joseph to a prostitute in the Bible (both being sinners)."

But as I wrote in my post above, the "revelation on celestial marriage" was allegedly the very voice of God commanding Joseph Smith to "plural marry." Since you're not a Mormon, in case you've never read it, here's the actual full text:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.46,47,48,49?lang=eng

If your Mormon guy believes that Joseph Smith "sinned" like a prostitute by having sex with other women, then he was guilty of adultery, and he should have been removed from his church position and excommunicated. But orthodox Mormonism doesn't teach that. It teaches that Smith did exactly as God commanded him to.

"I forgot to mention that Mish 2 said polygamy was necessary because it created the most offspring. I asked him how 1 man married to 40 women could create more offspring than 40 men married to 40 women. He thought about that and said he was wrong."

Yeah, I realized the same thing years ago. I included it in an article I wrote years ago:

"Joseph Smith's 1843 "revelation on celestial marriage" which is still canonized Mormon scripture as Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, states that the purposes of "plural marriage" was to "multiply and replenish the earth" (D&C 132:63). Nowhere in the revelation does it mention taking care of widows.

"Seeing as how a woman can only become pregnant by one fertile man at a time, that means that the "multiply and replenish" aspect of "plural marriage" fails for lack of logic. To increase population, a Mormon man wouldn't need numerous "plural wives" with which to reproduce - one fertile man being mated with one fertile woman would produce as many, if not more children over time than would one polygamous man with numerous wives."

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_widows.htm

If your missionary realized that that argument was invalid after you explained why, maybe that will get him thinking more about things.

Lots of Mormons use the "polygamy was practiced to produce more offspring quickly" argument, but when you study the actual facts, it's obvious that the true purpose of polygamy was to enable Joseph Smith and his most loyal insiders to have sex with lots of different women. As the leader of a supposedly Christian sect, Smith couldn't just go out and have affairs with numerous women without being exposed and defrocked, so he concocted his "revelation on celestial marriage" to make people believe that polygamy was a "commandment from God."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2015 02:05PM by randyj.

roomwithaview Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, Mish 2 had asked her to read a passage
> from the BOM and then asked if she felt the Spirit
> because he definitely felt the Sprit.

So if they come back have a few selected passages from the Essays to read to them and ask them what the Spirit(tm Bonneville Communications) tells them about what they just heard. After they finish about how it feels bad then tell them it came from their own church.

Whenever I see the mishies, I feel badly for them.

They know nothing of The One True Church's History.

Great job planting seeds of doubt with all 3 of them!

randyj: Thank you. I will try to remember the point that Smith did what God supposedly asked him to do and should have been removed as a leader.

AIT: That is a brilliant idea! I can do that.

My friend asked if we should have accepted the BOM from them (we didn't). I thought that would have been a bit unethical as we would have both tossed them.

The last I heard, the mishies had to BUY the BoM copies that they give to investigators. It's bad enough these poor, deluded kids have to pay for their own missions, but having to pay for the BoMs too really frosts my cookies.

No please tell me that isn't true.
that breaks my heart if that is the case.I can't believe it.
They should just give people links to where you can down load it first and then if you have no access to the net offer the book. but that book should from the churches pocket.

Indeed, Joseph Smith was NOT sinning by following the commands in D&C 132.

Except when he WAS sinning by NOT following D&C 132--you know, "espousing" women who were not virgins (because they were married to other men), not getting his wife's permission or approval, not "raising up righteous seed" by having children with his multi-wives....you know...stuff like that.

"I know the church is true"...
There is a reason missionaries travel in pairs.

Reminds me of an old joke:
Why do you always invite two mormons, and not one, to go camping?
If you only have one on the trip, he will drink all your beer.