Not being a great theologian I am a bit mystified by the practice of Baptism by proxy.
Could some one shed some light on the logic behind it for me.
As far as I understand it is performed on behalf of the dead who during their mortal life on this planet where unable to consent to baptism in the mormon fashion with all the pledges that entails. Basically given almost zero percent of the population have been aware of the gospel according to Jo this is an awfull lot of people. ie approximately every human that has ever lived.

If baptism is required to enter heaven, not exactly sure which level it qualifies you for, then given the poor records of births and deaths even if everyone traceable is baptised by proxy I would guess that still leaves millions of people unbaptised.
It seems to me a bit unjust that you miss out because of poor admin on the part of someone else.
What happens to all the souls unaccounted for. I remember being told that you get other chances in the afterlife, including chances to get married etc.
If that is the case why even bother baptising anyone.

I could be wrong but I get the impression someone is just making this stuff up on the hoof.
Can someone who left the church but still thinks baptism of the dead a sound idea explain to me?

Never could quite come to grips with the concept as I matured, although the act itself led to a bitchin' water fight that led to my not being invited to participate in a second dead dunking session. My bad....

Ron Burr

ps: the bran muffins in the cafeteria were AWESOME!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2015 10:19PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Can't help you in explaining how it's logically sound but it does do the following:

Wrangle kids into worthiness to enter the temple

Give members warm fuzzies about helping out the dearly departed (the idea that you can show love and help someone who is gone is somewhat comforting, although patently illogical)

Get youth excited about the temple so they can become life long tithe payer, temple recommend holders and temple participants - Temples are about $80 million a pop. If nobody is paying (through tithing) to use them, it's a bad investment for the church.

It's an effective motivator to get young kids (years before they can go through any of the "upstairs" activities) lassoed in (starting on a beginner's basis) to the things Mormon adults are expected to do for the rest of their lives:

...worthiness interviews...temple ceremonies...odd temple clothing...being obedient to authority...spending free time in LDS-related "sacred"/supposedly philanthropic activities, etc.

It's the LDS take on the famous Jesuit motto of "give me a child until he [sic!] is seven, and I will give you the man [sic!]."

Exact same pedagogical theory...different religion.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2015 10:19PM by tevai.

This is how my youth instructors taught it to me back in the 1970s.

The Millennium will be largely dedicated to temple work. During the Mill, JC's personal endorsement of the church will ensure that virtually the entire world population will be LDS.

Also, temple stuff is CK-specific, and is unnecessary for those stuck in either of the TKs. During the Mill it will somehow be obvious who is CK-worthy and who isn't. Therefore, many more workers, much lower workload. The first 100 years will be devoted to fixing all the dumb mistakes made prior to the Mill.

How will all the people not baptised get their chance and if they do why were all the others tediously identified by the extremely inefficient method of sifting through genealogy records.
Me still no understand.

So if it is just to entice the kids in then at what point does the believer realise this bit just for the kids.
Surely the adults must rationalise it to themselves somehow.

the investigator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So if it is just to entice the kids in then at
> what point does the believer realise this bit just
> for the kids.
> Surely the adults must rationalise it to
> themselves somehow.

The adults are (supposed to be) equally caught up in the baptisms for the dead...only THEIR job is to get the names of the dead people (through genealogical work) who will then be baptized by the youngin's.

Genealogical work and baptisms for the dead are the "same" activity: one is for the younger (pre-missionary) generation...the other is for the older (mostly married) generation---and in between, are missions, maybe college, temple weddings, and the births of the first LDS child or two who will begin the cycle all over again.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2015 10:33PM by tevai.

The adults rationalize it the way they rationalize all the other busywork: a combination of pride and people-pleasing. I was in a conversation with two TBM women. One explained how she had had baptised some thousand of her ancestors. She said the youth in her ward had some ungodly number of monthly sessions to accommodate her alone. The other woman congratulated her on her industry, and confessed she wasn't near as "good." The other woman accepted the compliment with due modesty; however, there was something in the praise from which I inferred that the woman was giving the Molly her due, while at the same time, by fully admitting she was a backslider, reserving for herself the right to do the bare minimum and enjoy her life on her own terms.

I, on the other hand, was apalled not only that an adult would waste her life so fruitlessly; but worse, she would absorb and waste the lives of the youth so completely in servicing her personal family's BS. Unfortunately, this was a circumstance that didn't allow me to speak up. However, both of them are within my subversive sights, agent of Stan as I am...

baptising people who are already in heaven ?

What is the point for baptisms for the dead?? That's the million dollar question! Maybe all the TBMs should be asking their bishops about this too. Moroni even said they were not necessary (see Moroni 8:22-23).

Moroni 8:22-23

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

Joseph Smith threw his "Book of Mormon" under the bus early on. It just gave him some legitimacy. Once he realized that all he had to do was issue "thus saith the Lord" commands to the suckers, he no longer had need of it.

Even today, the BoM is mainly used by the church to gain converts. The brethren really don't take it seriously (in spite of what bigmouth Holland yells out). They are well aware of its problems and blatant inconsistencies.

If logic is in order here , then it would seem to me that if baptized while in mortality , then if death was introduced by a being known as Adam , then that particular curse would be immediately removed and immortality would immediately take over . Makes the death / baptism thing a hoax with no relevance .

Is that what Moroni 8:22-23 means.
When i am reading it all I am getting is "blah blah, blah blah"

and after you joined the new Mormon movement ( i.e. cult ) you would want to help your deceased loved ones by giving them a chance for salvation, would you not?

Now it's just another activity offered by LD$, Inc.

It's the easiest way to get converts. Living people tend to say "What IS this BS?! no thanks!" and slam the door.

So what happens after the Church (a/k/a the legacy Religious Division of LD$, Inc.) baptises all known persons who have ever lived?

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what happens after the Church (a/k/a the legacy
> Religious Division of LD$, Inc.) baptises all
> known persons who have ever lived?

I'm sure they'll start delving into prehistory with the help of the National Genographic program.

Not just once, but several times. That includes people who put their names on "do not baptize" lists and the names of exed and resigned former members.

The real value of dead dunking to the church is to generate revenue. Members pay tithing to keep temple recommends. They can't go there and use the recommends unless there are names to process. It isn't just the dunking, but there's also washing/anointing, sealing, and the rest.

Yes, they do like to give spirits a chance to be Mormons when they haven't heard of Mormonism in their lives. They also force every other name through the grind.

Jesus NEVER bothered to baptize any one ! ( READ THE STORY !!!)
He had His outlaw cousin baptize Him in the local river as a way to jam His bird finger into the face of the establishment elite theocratic ruling class, for the start of his anti religion ministry.

However, MORmON Jesus is deeply concerned with baptizing including vicarious baptisms for dead people..... and STUPID secret handshakes....... and with Wife collecting / Harem building.

Baptism is just a formalized bath, IF vicarious bathing is so critical for dead people, then how come MORmONS are not vicariously brushing their teeth for the dead too ????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cob_0tcuQD8

Baptism for the dead (etc) is the emotional leverage used to squeeze revenue out of the membership. It serves no other purpose.

After my masturbation interview at age 12, I went to the Los Angeles Temple for 'dead-dunking'. This woulda been 1970.

There was a TV monitor above the baptism bathtub with names scrolling down automatically. The 'dunker' guy could hardly keep up with the task at hand. He was rambling thru his lines so quickly, I could not tell what he was saying.

I thought, "This is really gonna save souls?"

WTF?

Hey don't blame them, Christianity opened Pandoras box...
What was the point Jesus sacrificing hisself for us?
And no returning promptly second time....

If TSCC was really led by revelation wouldn't be a hell of a lot easier for Nephi or Moroni to tell the profit the names of the mormon converts on "the other side" and then just do their baptisms.

Of course, "Ancestry.com" would not like that one bit.

. . . thanks to the unexpected Ddemise of his brother, Alvin.


link: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1273729,1273729#msg-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2015 10:57AM by steve benson.

The point is to make the kids wear those white outfits that gets pretty much completely transparent once they get wet. And then the older pervs can enjoy some church sanctioned teenage boobs while the teens themselves try to hide their embaressment or (for guys) their boners.

Seriously I don't know. Supposedly the entire millenium will be mostly dedicated to temple work. A thousand years under a celestial regime with perfect records and instant ressurection of the beneficaries is, one would think, cause to leave all that busywork for the future millenium when it can actually be done. But appearantly, in the meantime, god wants us to get the temple ordinances done for the same poor schmucks repeatedly or inaccurately a gazillion times over.

Does anyone here point out to any TBM what Alma 34:35 says and put their nose in it?

It's to make the living feel good about themselves. It actually kinda works.

It's busy work to keep people going to the temple which means they have to get a temple recommend which means they have to pay tithing.
Back to the bottom line, it's about money.
Organized religion is about money. No money, no church.
No tithing, no need for temples.