I was zipping back home on by scooter tonight and saw the elders trying to talk to people on the streets. They were on bicycles and would go after anyone who moved.

I turned around and pulled up beside them and asked how they were doing. We shook hands, they introduced themselves as Elder Smith and Elder Brown. (Forgot their actual names.)

Elder Smith is from Spanish Fork, and Elder Brown is from Bountiful. I said I was from Salt Lake and their eyes got big. They asked if I was LDS. I laughed and said no.

We chatted for a few minutes and then I offered to buy them something at McDonald's. They had already eaten so they each had an ice cream while I attacked a Big Mac.

Elder Smith goes home in a month and Elder Brown has been out for a year.

I told them about serving a mission in Japan during the Kikuchi / Groberg era and the scams that were happening. How Tokyo South Mission had over 1,000 baptisms per month, but they were all "less active."

They asked why I'm not longer Mormon, so I told them about the First Visions. Smith knew about them, but it was the first time for Brown. His eyes were really big with that deer in the headlights look.

I told them about how Joseph Smith couldn't have seen the vision as is described in the official history, and how we know that because when he wrote the BoM, he still had a traditional view of the Trinity and had to later make the changes which were made to the 1830 BoM to correct this doctrine. I told them about the 1835 lectures on faith which stated God has a body of spirit but Jesus has flesh and blood.

Elder Brown looked like he was going to get sick.

I asked them if they knew about the newest polygamy essay and JS marrying other guys' wives.

I talked about how the UK is now actually losing active members and that more and more returned missionaries are checking out.

Eventually they realized that escape was the best idea, so they left, but only after asking me if I was interested in coming back to church. I just laughed and said no way.

Ice cream and a history lesson? You are indeed hastening the work.

Good job outsider! It has to be a shock to these kids when they hear some of this stuff for the first time. I know it was to me.

I wonder how long they stayed awake that night thinking about what you'd told them. At least now they know why people won't have much to do with them. I hope they realize it's not them that has the problem, it's mormonism.

"You've effectively destroyed our church and its founder, Mr. Outsider, would you be interested in coming back to it now?"

Kudos. That's the way it's done.

Excellent. There are so many issues the missionaries (and most TBMs) don't know about. The Preach My Gospel manual says nothing of the issues. With missionaries, it's great to stick to basics, the inconvenient truths that contradict their teaching outlines.

The Kikuchi/Groberg era. . .

Although a lot of us hung onto Mormonism for years or decades after that, I think most of the missionaries from that period were never really fervent afterwards. I never trusted the church again, for instance, after seeing how horribly they treated the missionaries and the members and how Salt Lake then swept everything under the rug.

Trying to fit in after returning home, a lot of us were permanent "outsiders." What has happened is that the church has done so many stupid things with doctrine, gay rights, women's rights, etc., that there are now huge numbers of outsiders. We outsiders are not as lonely now as we were in the 1980s and 1990s.

Missionaries: So, are you interested in coming back to church?

Former Mormon: Are you interested in leaving your church?

Someone's got to come across the opportunity to say this, right? The OP sounds like the missionaries heard nothing he said by asking their parting question. I mean really, who wants to go back to a church that lies about every one of its aspects?

Still, that was cool that you gave them something to mull over and increase their cog dis. If they do doubt their church, they know they are not alone in it. That seems to be key for a lot of people to take that plunge.

Man, where were you when I was on my mission? Nice work. I wish I could play it that cool. When they knocked on my door a year after I left, I couldn't think straight enough to say anything intelligible. Maybe when they come for their two-year visit I'll be recovered enough to reach out to them and let them know it's okay to doubt and find the real truth, and it's totally okay to walk away from being a missionary and get on with your life.

I was a "good" missionary, but I was miserable, and I didn't know why. If only I could have seen through it then...

I hope someday I'm recovered enough that I can keep my cool around them and maybe he'll some of the poor kids out. Even if it's just to show them a little human kindness.

and Mormons say that anything less than the full, complete truth is being deceptive!

OOPS! that doesn't apply to leaders!!!!

I love a good story, outsider. And I know two young men who will never forget this one. Splendid. People who post here continue to amaze me.

The senior companion was not processing my comments. He was waiting for a chance to invite me to church. The junior companion was in shell shock.

I love that TSCC put the essays on their web site, as I was able to cite it as a source. It can't be anti Mormon.

My basic approach to talking to missionaries is to assume the best about them. They are good kids.

You remember all the sales techniques to get baptisms, right?

Here's some points for sales from the net: with my comments as outsider:

"Be genuine. Before the first day of school, first jobs, camp, and any family get-together, Dad always said, “Just be yourself and everything will be fine.” This lesson applies to generating rapport with prospects and customers."

"Be genuine. Be yourself. Don’t try to be anything you are not, create a new persona, or adopt a “sales-like” tone. Relax, smile, and go in with a positive attitude. Good things will follow. As Oscar Wilde said, "Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."

"Be warm and friendly. Chilly people get chilly reactions from other people. Approach rapport building with the intent to be warm and friendly. Smile, give a firm handshake, make eye contact, and engage."

Outsider: I like people, and missionaries are good kids. It's easy to be friendly.

"Show interest. No surprise to anyone, people are self-focused. This is quite helpful to those of us in selling because we need to learn about our prospects before we can provide the best solutions. People want to feel like they have an opening to share what they’re thinking, including their desires, fears, and problems. The more genuinely interested you appear the more relaxed and willing to share they’re likely to be."

Outsider: Build trust by talking first about how baptisms are going because that's what they are most interested in. Ask how receptive people are. Ask how things are going and what kind of people are they teaching.

If you were a missionary share some stories.

Then, start the closer. Once you've started talking about baptisms, talk about retention and other challenges. Ask if the members have heard about the problems about the history. Present it as simple fact, but NEVER challenge their personal faith.

Let them know they aren't alone. Other times, I ask them if they have friend who go home early, and I'll mention that up to 10% are returning in some areas.

Plant seeds. Fertilize the ground. Water.

You're not going to get someone to walk off their mission, but you may get them to start to doubt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2015 12:07AM by outsider.

One last comment. I usually talk about my kids and how much I love being a father. With sister missionaries, I ask them about challenges about being a sister and them tell them I can't bring up my daughter like that.

You can actually watch their face simply failing to comprehend that here is someone who loves his kids and thinks Mormonism is bad.

But, I think it gives them something to think about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXW-CHtD07g&list=UUJX9pqr08F65gDW7JLYkajw

lying sacks of shit.

Good grief. As soon as the temple square sister missionaries find it impossible to process the facts (which they've never heard about) they run away like cockroaches. The cognitive dissonance overloads their minds and they can't continue with a civil, rational conversation. Unbelievable.

While more satisfying, I don't think this is as effective. It's easier to delete the truth from antagonistic sources.

on their sweet little faces when somebody confronts them with facts they can't really deny that makes their hero sound like a rapist to anybody with a functioning conscience.

Yes missionaries have 'Joseph Smith' as a super hero, so when some uncomfortable and outright abusive behavioural facts present themselves it's hard for them to come to terms with.

The last gasp of desperation to continue conversing is to somehow then claim God commanded Smith to be a sexual predator and then finally either 'I'm calling security' lol or quickly mutter some lame testimony and then run off and somehow wishing investigators 'have a great day'..

"I talked about how the UK is now actually losing active members and that more and more returned missionaries are checking out."

Do you see this from personal experience ( ie your own ward or prior ward).

I haven't been to my local ward for 7 years so I don't know what is happening there, though when I attended back in 2005-07 there was an issue with baptising Asylum seekers who were more in need of what they could get from the church rather than what the church could get from them).

The convert baptisms tended to be mostly after being pressured and manipulated by missionaries.

A very few continued as fully participating members. Most went inactive quite soon after being love bombed.

I like your approach. You won't recover from Mormonism as long as you're afraid of them.

I invited the missionaries in a few weeks ago. When they asked why I didn't attend, I said I just didn't like the celestial kingdom, and found a lack of inspiration so was confused, and didn't like sitting in church or home teaching. I said the lower kingdoms are fine, and free agency is important.

I don't discuss doctrine or history. Just likes, dislikes, and freedom. They preach feelings, and so do I.